Pilot Archive
Thread: Test server patch notes
What do you mean "some" POB components? Wouldn't the asteroid resource stats being fixed fix all POB components?
TomoRainer wrote:
AzzixxSWG wrote:
I thought they were supposed to be fixing the POB ship components and related stuff.
They're working on fixing the problems with some POB components, but it's looking like it's going to be at least another publish or two on that, I'd guess. Don't lynch me if that guess turns out to be wrong--they haven't given us any ETAs--but it just sounds like "we're making progress, but we don't have it figured out yet." (Not a direct quote, just a translation from the oft-nebulous language of dev-speak.) Considering that's more info than we get on the progress of most bugs, it makes me think a fix isn't too terribly far off.
IIscandar's been bringing it up regularly, too, so they've known about it for a while.
Message Edited by TomoRainer on 07-07-2005 07:49 AM
Do you know if anything is in the works dealing with scaleing down PvP damage?
If POB shields are the best it's going to get ( about 3.5k protection front/back) and the average Ace pilot does 3.5k-5k damage per weapon then no matter what a POB ship is dead in 1-3 hits. Most people can hit a target 3 times in less than 1 second. Some ships have more than 1 gun.
Just a little reality check incase the devs have forgotten about why POB ships just don't work.
I agree, I think a reduction in PvP damage would be a great fix. I've always loved using my Nova in PvE, and it is usable even before POB Elite parts (but, again, it's really not worth using it rather then 4 people in seperate fighters, other then the fun factor), but in PvP (which is where there is the potential for the most fun with them) they're dead way too quick. This goes for all ships really, PvP is too fast. There's no dogfighting, it's just a head on run and then if both pilots survive it's just a tight loop around each other until someone gets inside the other persons loop. If you decrease PvP damage significantly, first off there'd be room for more PvP tactics: people wouldn't be afraid to pull out of the loop and try something beacuse they know they can afford to take a hit or two. Secondly, POB ships would be much better off: if POB ships were able to survive for significantly longer then most fighters, then they'd be much more effective since the turrets would have more time to take out some fighters, and the Co-Pilot could continue to shunt and repair components on the ship (again, another useless feature in PvP, since you're dead so fast...make it so PvP damage is reduced much more and then POB ship crews would have time to run around and repair components, keeping the ship in action - even if the engine/reactor are disabled, if POB ships were able to endure, then the turrets could fend off fighters long enough to get them repaired and be in motion again).
This is also why I think POB Elite weapons need to be much stronger: they basically only take potshots, they rarely destroy the target, because either the ship has been destroyed before they have the time to or the ship simply flies out of the firing range or direction of the turret (or the person firing just cannot hit the ship because of how difficult it is to aim with a turret). If POB Elite weapons became devastating, and did a large amount of damage to a fighter in just 1-2 hits, then the fighters would be forced to pull away: it wouldn't be overpowered because POB ships cannot truly pursue a fighter, so the fighter is free to rest outside of firing range and prepare for another strafing run. This would make the turrets very effective, but again they would rarely destroy ships, but they'd be very good at protecting the POB ship, giving it time to line up to get off volleys of those 3 ordnance's at the Cap Ships 
Message Edited by Feynan on 07-07-2005 11:32 AM
During RotW beta, me, Monsofo, and some of the other testers made a lot of noise about how the POB components weren't nearly as good as they needed to be. Darth_Platypus ended up increasing the numbers on a lot of parts, but it's clear that, in some areas, they're still miles away from where they need to be to take these ships into battle.
In fact, the difference between where POBs need to be and where they are now in PVP is so incredibly vast I'm of the mind there's simply no way to make up that gap through components alone. Give them 20,000 or 50,000 or 100,000 HP shields like they need to work in PVP, and what does that do to PVE? It turns it into a joke, right?
They really just need their own system. They either need a MASSIVE damage reduction on POBs alone (I'm talking 85-96%) or targetable subcomponents (a la cap ships) or some other system that works with the fact they're enormously fat targets that can't fire back very well and sure as hell can't dodge incoming fire. That's what fighters do--avoid fire, because 2-3 shots and you're gone--so when you're in a ship where dodging is impossible, you need to be able to absorb that damage instead. POBs might be able to soak 5-6 hits instead of 2-3, but that turns into 1-2 seconds of concentrated fire from nearly any ship before they're vaped. A joke, in other words.
Not only that, but even then, what's the point if they're helpless against A-Wings and Eta-2s and other tiny, hypermaneuverable ships that are incredibly hard to hit even in other tiny, hypermaneuverable ships, let alone by turrets that get yanked around with every move the pilot makes?
These things need incredibly beefy defenses and they need a defined role in combat. Turning them into flying fortresses will partially create that role--you'll need to either assign heavy fighters to take them out relatively quickly, or they may find a way to wreak some havoc, but even then, I'd doubt whether it'd be enough to be worth using them instead of 3-5 separate fighters. Given that, there needs to be some special role or tactics that are most effectively filled by POBs.
Otherwise, they'll remain what they are now: a novelty, fun for socialization, but terrible in combat. It would be a shame if one of the game's premier possibilities for potential remains nothing but something you might take for a spin now and again, but ditch as soon as the fighting turns serious.
response to faynan
sigh
anyone else want to take this? i'm so tired of rehashing it. space PVP is NOT too fast. damage reduction would break the game. please think about things before you ask for it because who knows who is going to read this and walk into a devs office and say "hey, do this! it makes sense."
it doesn't make sense. it would doom non master PVP and all it would do is favor pilots out there who love to make mistakes. it would complety push PVP superiority to the realm ofwhomever has the best equipment wins, and real hairball dogfights that happen all the time now wouldlast for an eternity.there is PLENTY of dogfighting in space pvp currently and anyone that says it's too fast has A) never gone out to PVP vs a JSF with lvl 3 guns (the equivelant of your 70-90% reduction) or has not PVP'd since the introduction of lighter ships period.
i'm willing to bet it's the latter. yesterday i fought a JSF in my oppressor in DS for close to 20 seconds. if you think that's too fast, i'm sorry but you are a fool and worse, your inexperience has the potential to ruin how much fun PVP is for everyone. forgive me for being so harsh, but people LOVE this system now and more and more people with the advent of small hitbox ships are starting to really get up there and fight and excel in the current system. you really do not understand how dangerous to the heath of PVP this damage reduction talk is. if you really want to know, go up in space and fight your friend with identical equipment lvl 3 guns, but one of you use eo4 and the other use eo3. the person using eo4 will win every time. why? because great aim is less of a factor with weaker guns. because equipment is more of a factor with weaker guns, the careful and well thought out balance that the game has now would be utterly annihilated and likely it would take months upon months of protesting to change it.
as pilot skill increases more and more of these fights last a very long time. do noob pilots in DS get blown up in1 shot? yes. do heavy fighters with no perception of how to avoid oncoming fire get nuked in 1 shot? yes. both of these situations are overcome by experience and experience is gained by having an involved community on your server that constantly fights each other. that's something you have to build, not just come on a forum and whine to fix.
PVP reduction or some kind of defensive bonus for POB ships is a no brainer, it simply has to happen because POB's are a home run for SOE, but normal space fighters cannot handle a reduction, if you think it can, you are dead wrong and have not thought the mechanics of it through, so please take the time to read the billions of other threads about why increased dmg reduction would be a horrible thing, think about what your asking for, then post again, or merely be sure to preface any damage reduction or mitigation talk by making it clear you are ONLY talking about how it relates to POB ships.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 07-07-2005 10:58 AM
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 07-07-2005 11:06 AM
TomoRainer wrote:
I'm not sure how the devs think about POBs in PVP.
During RotW beta, me, Monsofo, and some of the other testers made a lot of noise about how the POB components weren't nearly as good as they needed to be. Darth_Platypus ended up increasing the numbers on a lot of parts, but it's clear that, in some areas, they're still miles away from where they need to be to take these ships into battle.
In fact, the difference between where POBs need to be and where they are now in PVP is so incredibly vast I'm of the mind there's simply no way to make up that gap through components alone. Give them 20,000 or 50,000 or 100,000 HP shields like they need to work in PVP, and what does that do to PVE? It turns it into a joke, right?
They really just need their own system. They either need a MASSIVE damage reduction on POBs alone (I'm talking 85-96%) or targetable subcomponents (a la cap ships) or some other system that works with the fact they're enormously fat targets that can't fire back very well and sure as hell can't dodge incoming fire. That's what fighters do--avoid fire, because 2-3 shots and you're gone--so when you're in a ship where dodging is impossible, you need to be able to absorb that damage instead. POBs might be able to soak 5-6 hits instead of 2-3, but that turns into 1-2 seconds of concentrated fire from nearly any ship before they're vaped. A joke, in other words.
Not only that, but even then, what's the point if they're helpless against A-Wings and Eta-2s and other tiny, hypermaneuverable ships that are incredibly hard to hit even in other tiny, hypermaneuverable ships, let alone by turrets that get yanked around with every move the pilot makes?
These things need incredibly beefy defenses and they need a defined role in combat. Turning them into flying fortresses will partially create that role--you'll need to either assign heavy fighters to take them out relatively quickly, or they may find a way to wreak some havoc, but even then, I'd doubt whether it'd be enough to be worth using them instead of 3-5 separate fighters. Given that, there needs to be some special role or tactics that are most effectively filled by POBs.
Otherwise, they'll remain what they are now: a novelty, fun for socialization, but terrible in combat. It would be a shame if one of the game's premier possibilities for potential remains nothing but something you might take for a spin now and again, but ditch as soon as the fighting turns serious.
you know, there's a really good point here that i hadn't previously considered. suppose you have the dynamic where POBs are the tanks and can soak up a bunch of fire, it still would be a bit too difficult to have much of an impact because of the difficulting in hitting those small fighters. with some kind of massive reduction or defensive bonus mechanic they might be able to survive a swarm of light fighters, but could they repel the threat?
maybe we need to think up ideas for POB's to be able to overcome that as well. or with the proper shielding would taking out light fighters be possible? anyone fly a POB with a crew who has tried?
one mechanic possibly could be increased missle ranges on POB launchers? i'm not sure how that would play out....
would more turrets help? some kind of change to how turrets operate?
this whole time i've been operating on the assumption that just a reduction or component fix would help, I never really thought about targetting issues.
Why are the Devs so hung up on making PvP and PvE such unrealistically different animals? Where is the logic of me taking on a Tier 5 fighter and needing a dozen shots to blow up and 3 shots to take down a Master Pilot in his ship?
As long as there are two systems, you can't balance one and make the other work.One system, one set of rules. If that means PvP fighter combat takes ten shots to kill an opponent, so be it. If it means that soloing in Kessel and Deep Space are no longer possible, so be it, but dammit, they need to make up their minds already.
Two systems didn't work on the ground, and its not doing anything up here but making the Tier 4 and 5 missions more of a time sink and PvP utterly futile without endless hours out in space loot whoring for high maneuverability engines.
You know, ships that aren't any good in PVP.
After a couple hundred PVP kills, I'm a zealoutrous advocate of the current system when it comes to light fighters, but it's not ideal for heavies and, to a lesser degree, mediums. I'd much rather keep things exactly as they are if changes could potentially screw with the incredible dogfighting potential many of us have realized, but if there's a fair way to increase the survivability of the "bad" ships by just a little, I'd do it. (The problem with damage reductions for some ships and not for others, though, is there is going to be an unavoidable level of arbitrariness as to which ships you grant that reduction and which you don't.)
O' course, fixing WO3 might up the survivability of those ships quite a ways, which is why I'd never advocate any form of damage reduction for fighters before we see how such a fix would play out. But as it stands right now, I do think certain ships could use a little (and I DO mean little) help.
JanuHull wrote:Why are the Devs so hung up on making PvP and PvE such unrealistically different animals? Where is the logic of me taking on a Tier 5 fighter and needing a dozen shots to blow up and 3 shots to take down a Master Pilot in his ship?
As long as there are two systems, you can't balance one and make the other work.One system, one set of rules. If that means PvP fighter combat takes ten shots to kill an opponent, so be it. If it means that soloing in Kessel and Deep Space are no longer possible, so be it, but dammit, they need to make up their minds already.
Two systems didn't work on the ground, and its not doing anything up here but making the Tier 4 and 5 missions more of a time sink and PvP utterly futile without endless hours out in space loot whoring for high maneuverability engines.
see the problem is you aren't considering the top end of the spectrum. PVE for me lasts almost as long as PVP.
also you aren't considering the impossibilty of programing the ship AI to operate on a human level. ships are predictable, no matter what you do skilled players will always, in a matter of minutes determine how PVE enemies move and destroy them. so you make PVE last 2 shots instead of 5 and it's absurdly easy. you make PVP last 10 shots instead of 2 and now you have a dynamic where actual piloting skill takes a back seat to a different design choice, the fact that players can have variable equipment.
i see what players who don't like the disparity are saying, i see that they look at their success in PVE and want to replicate that or at least use the skills they learned in PVE in the PVP arena, but unfortunately it's something that just cannot work with variable equipment. there has to be a disparity and the current disparity is the best choice.
i mentioned a 20 second dogfight previously against the JSF pilot. imagine if that took 10 shots instead of 1. you are talking about a 2 minute fight. that is absurd, now where is the disparity? PVE would take 6 seconds but PVP 2 minutes?
trust me, the more people fight, the more experience they gain, the more they realize the system works the way it is designed currently. the more they realize it would break horribly if tinkered with too much on the fighter level. asking for 1 more hit is fine, asking for a mechanic to make it 2 hits is fine, but asking for it to act like PVE is just indicative of not understanding how the system works and it's dangerous.
TomoRainer wrote:
At the risk of being spat upon by many of my favorite pilots, I do think it's worth looking at a damage reduction for some of the larger, slower fighters.. B-Wings, Y-Wings, TIE Bombers, Krayts, Ixiyens. Things like that.
You know, ships that aren't any good in PVP.
After a couple hundred PVP kills, I'm a zealoutrous advocate of the current system when it comes to light fighters, but it's not ideal for heavies and, to a lesser degree, mediums. I'd much rather keep things exactly as they are if changes could potentially screw with the incredible dogfighting potential many of us have realized, but if there's a fair way to increase the survivability of the "bad" ships by just a little, I'd do it. (The problem with damage reductions for some ships and not for others, though, is there is going to be an unavoidable level of arbitrariness as to which ships you grant that reduction and which you don't.)
O' course, fixing WO3 might up the survivability of those ships quite a ways, which is why I'd never advocate any form of damage reduction for fighters before we see how such a fix would play out. But as it stands right now, I do think certain ships could use a little (and I DO mean little) help.
yes, definately. by all means some manner of reduction to help out those heavier/large hitbox ships should be pursued. players have to realize that nobody protesting damage reduction is against this either. what we are against is people who think PVP should last an inordinate amount of hits, and what we are against is a uniform damage reduction across the board, which noobs in here constantly are clamoring for.
all it takes is to preface your request with that and you aren't going to hear a peep out of me. but coming on and saying "they need to make PVP more like PVE." or "i think a 90% dmg reduction is a good idea" ... ugh it's just flawed logic, and has the possibilty of totally crushing what is imo the best part of SWG atm.
and i understand the repsonse to that "well i think it's the worst part" but believe me, you have not thought it through. players who think they die too fast now will be obliterated if damage reduction across the board goes in. you'll be absolutely miserable and that's why people get riled up at the mention of it. i don't want you to be pushing to ruin the game for yourself.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 07-07-2005 11:21 AM
JanuHull wrote:Why are the Devs so hung up on making PvP and PvE such unrealistically different animals? Where is the logic of me taking on a Tier 5 fighter and needing a dozen shots to blow up and 3 shots to take down a Master Pilot in his ship?
As long as there are two systems, you can't balance one and make the other work.One system, one set of rules. If that means PvP fighter combat takes ten shots to kill an opponent, so be it. If it means that soloing in Kessel and Deep Space are no longer possible, so be it, but dammit, they need to make up their minds already.
Two systems didn't work on the ground, and its not doing anything up here but making the Tier 4 and 5 missions more of a time sink and PvP utterly futile without endless hours out in space loot whoring for high maneuverability engines.
Problem with changing PVP so it requires more hits is it is literally physically impossible to land those 10 consecutive hits on something like an Eta-2, an A-Wing, or even the relatively large but still small and nimble Interceptor. It's practically impossible to land 2 swift hits, lol.
You'd have to do something like inflate every ship to the size of X-Wings at least, and/or remove engine overloads (or at least make it so nothing is moving faster than about 900 speed or turning faster than about 70 PYR), and/or remove cap to shield shunt to create a situation where human reflexes could hope with the speed and size of ships in JTL well enough to ever kill anyone.
I guess you could change PVE to be more like PVP, but that'd be pretty nuts too--you'd need to drop NPC accuracy from the ludicrous rate it is now to be more in line with how it is in PVP (~0.2-1% ratio of hits:shots fired on light fighters), and even then, I have the feeling any tough missions would become a gankfest of you where the only way to complete it is to run it over and over until the NPCs don't land a lucky shot the entire time and wipe you out halfway through despite you having run it flawlessly up till then. I don't think that would be much fun for anyone.
Honestly, I completely agree that having two separate systems creates a number of balance problems, but when I'm thinking about how you could make them one and the same, the only ways to do that would be so nuts I think it'd cause many more problems of vastly greater scale than the kinds we're running into now.