Pilot Archive
Thread: Focus: Player-Controlled Capital Ships
Radio_Raheem wrote:
And now for an unpopular opinion.
For continuity's sake, there should be no player-owned capitol ships beyond the Corellian Corvette level. A: They are too big. You know that everyone and their mothers will want one and then space will be SWARMING with them. B: in the SW universe IMP star destroyer captains/admirals didn't OWN there ships, the Empire did. They were merely rendering a service.
True, opions are not necessarly fact are they? According to the EU, there were frigates that were owned by individuals that were privateers. In another case, a privateer was given an ISD by the New Republic. True many guns had been stripped out of it, but it was none the less a 1600m privately owned ship. All that aside, I do agree with you on the basics of only smaller capital ships should be player owned, not 1600m long ships.
Secondly, SD's and Mon Cal cruisers should be static, meaning that they do not spawn and they should be limited to certain sectors with one or (at most) two in to a system. Probably One of each in Tat, Naboo, dantooine, etc. For the REALLY uninhabited systems (yavin, endor, etc.), there shouldn't even be any SD or Mon Cals. Core worlds like Corellia and Talus should have several. These ships should be able to be taken of\ver by players for in-system patrol and for specific battles as they relate to the GCW. dozens of players could board the vessels to battle each other. Once everyone onboard a ship is killed a new set of players gets to crew it and the opposing ships warp away from eachother so they can search for eachother again and battle.
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Make them squadron based form squadrons seperate than guilds make the head of the squadron own then and the lower people can own gunboats or other things to escort. this would solve probloms and be a compromise . Otherwise alot of peopl would leave their guild to make space ones. there should be space stations for guild s small little bigger for differnt size squadrons. 
anyone hear of koran horns father in law having a smaller isd
Kazzabez master shipwright and freelance ace
I think that capital ships should have their own advanced profession off of pilot... Starship Officer (or something)and unlike pilot, should cost skill points that go toward the existijng total number of skills you can havejust like architect, bounty hunter, or pistoleer would, for example... in addition to any other suggestions for limiting the proliferation of capital ships. I think if you want to tool around the galaxycommanding a city-sized armored arsenal you should have to make a sacrifice somewhere else in your character. For example, be a combat monster on the ground, or be Godzilla in space... your choice. But it should be a choice.
I Can't say I agree with using skill points for any pilot professions and there are several reasons why. The first is simple. There are not enough skill points as it is. I am a master shipwright and doing that took up 92 out of my 250 skillpoints. As it is I will not have sufficient skill points to Master any advanced combat profession and still seek to unlock Jedi boxes. Now I know you don't want a char to be good at too much and to be honest I'd be happy to never touch Jedi except for another reason will I will touch upon later. While the facet of selling back skillpoints allows for some variety the fact is that unless you want to be constantly changing the makeup of your character you will quickly get bored with SWG. While some enjoy the constant re-tooling and trying new skills, others for a variety of reasons can not. One is guild issues and responsibility. As one of my guilds two Master Shipwright's I am depended on for parts and chassis. That's fine I like building them. Another issue and one often overlooked id the Roleplaying facet. My Character is based on a concept for Roleplaying as a Strike Fighter pilot, a shipwright and a sometime soldier on the ground, though not an exceptional one. For me to constantly change my skills and professions would very much be out of line with my chars background and objectives. You can say that this is my choice and you are right but the limited number of skillpoints penalizes me enough without adding to it any more.
Secondly there is the vast difference between the space game and the ground game and one of the main reasons I think that skill points are not already used for space combat. The ground game when all is said and done is a game of mathematics, pitting your CL, damage and specials against others. Sure you have to know when to click what special and techniques for grouping well and solo hunting but all of this essentially comes down to your numbers. The space game is far more based on actual individual flying skill and I much prefer it this way. Equipment can make some difference but in the end you either have the hands or you don't. Since this aspect of the game is depended on my personal skill regardless of my character's experience or level I do not believe it should use skill points especially as they were invented for the ground and crafting game only and had nothing to do whatsoever with JTL.
Now the last reason why I think Cap ship piloting should not be based on skill points is due to the ridiculous restriction of one character per server, unless of course you reach jedi which allows you a second so long as you do not delete either of your chars after they have been created. This is an absurdity,especially considering the monthly fee for this game is more or less equivalent to Everquest, Sony's MMORPG gem which when I last played it allowed eight chars per sever. Having one charcter I understand is an attempt to keep the economy of SWG player based. All well and good. But this limitation means that the only way to experience all that SWG offers is to constantly change an existing character and/or to continually delete and create new characters. They only way around this is to struggle to reach Jedi to get a second character slot and even two fully developed Chars will only allow you to explore a fraction of what this game has to offer without constant change, often deletorious to guild function and roleplaying as well. Having a skill point cost for CAP ship piloting will only exacerbate this already frustrating situation. This will only further dilute a limited possibility for stable character development in a game which in my opinion already comes up severely short against other MMORPGS for this very reason. True I could be playing these other games and have done so. But none of them have Y-wings Tie fighters stormtroopers or any other of the fun things in the Star Wars universe that make sure I do play SWG despite this limitation.
For these reasons and others I say keep skill points on the ground where they belong. In a "twitch" based environment personal skill is far harder to develop for most folks and they don't need to be penalized by the loss of mathmatical skill points that don't help them significantly in the space environment as it is designed.
Banaster
Banaster wrote:
Secondly there is the vast difference between the space game and the ground game and one of the main reasons I think that skill points are not already used for space combat. The ground game when all is said and done is a game of mathematics, pitting your CL, damage and specials against others. Sure you have to know when to click what special and techniques for grouping well and solo hunting but all of this essentially comes down to your numbers. The space game is far more based on actual individual flying skill and I much prefer it this way. Equipment can make some difference but in the end you either have the hands or you don't. Since this aspect of the game is depended on my personal skill regardless of my character's experience or level I do not believe it should use skill points especially as they were invented for the ground and crafting game only and had nothing to do whatsoever with JTL.
Banaster
For ships where individual piloting skills are important, I would agree with you completely. It is great that they have a seperation between ground and space. However... how much "twitch" would be involved in getting a group of faction mates or friends together and putting them on a capital ship, providing and maintaining it for them? You're probably not doing complex barrel rolls to fly up under your opponent in a Star Destroyer. Scratch "probably not"... you're not. You're providing weapon emplacements for other players to use to blow up enemies... you're not a twitch-based pilot in a capital ship (we hope, if these things handle remotely like starfighters and light transports they've lost their minds) you're a "space mayor" for a floating city. A very aggro, scary "city" granted, but certainly not in a ship that relies on the pilot's own "twitch."
I guess it remains to be seen how much of the owner's own skill would be involved in handling a capital ship... but if the difference in handling and maneuverability between say, a Y-Wing and an A- or X-Wing scales up to capital ships I don't see how you're going to save the day with your mad piloting skills on a capital ship... the thing should be lumbering along while other players man turrets. There's probably going to be sucha big difference between owning and operating a cap ship and a regular ship... it's not going to be exactly the same thing as every other type of piloting.
So in my mind I think you really could justify making a capital ship officer a profession that costs skill points, and it's the only real cost that would be meaningful. Credits, resources, prestige... it doesn't matter how high you make those costs... all those things boil down to is time, they're not "real" commodities that are limited in any way other than how long it takes you to get them. If capital ships are only limited by these time-based costs, it will only be a matter of time before you can't move through the various quadrants without one filling up your screen in whatever direction you're facing.
Does anyone have an ETA for this awsomeness? If theres nothing concrete, does anyone have a guess as to when this stuff will be put in the game?
Banaster wrote:
Actually I think Capital ship piloting should and will call for quite a bit of personal piloting skill if it is designed right. The best already released example that comes to mind is the Star Trek::Bridge COmmander title from activision. Piloting a large vessel in that game called for more anticipation, because the speeds were much lower than say an SWG starfighter. But you stilll had to use yaw pitch and roll to bring weapons into line, to keep the strong shields towards the enemy, to exploit other vessel's blind spots etc. There is no reason at all a CAP ship should just sit there. If you've ever gone into Deep Space as an Imperial and fought one of those rare corvettes that actually maneuvers you get to see something of this. It's harder to kill than one on a stationary course. Even then though it turns more on a dollar than on a dime but that's fine. Personally I'm dissappointed with CAP ships that just sit there. I'd love it (Except for the lag issue with all those guns) If the ISD would pitch and roll around a bit when attacked. As it is I can shred it eight times in an hour in a slow (908 top speed) Y-wing. Done right Cap ships will call for as much or MORE piloting skills than a starfighter even when they don't match performance with the smaller vessels. Which is why I don't believe in game skill points should be used for them unless either the skill point cap in game is increased or the restriction of one character per server is released. Most people I know have already used most or all of their skill points as it stands and I don't think they should have to surrender their current combat and crafting professions for new content, especially new space content.
Banaster
Just for mentioning ST, you should be sentenced to kessel for life.
As for Cap ships handling like they do in "that" universe....this is STAR WARS. Capital ships in SW already have a flight model to handle like. Its in the movies. Its nothing like ST. They should not function like fighters, and to even suggest they handle like one is crazy and a complete lack of understanding in how capital ships of the SW universe function and handle.
Take for example the opening scene of EP3. A lot of Cap ships flying around. Fighters dodging around them like flies. Amazing how it is so much like Ep6 isn't it? Its because in the movies and the books, Cap ships are alsready supposed to function like Cap ships of the seas. Its supposed to have a sort of tall ships of the Atlantic feel to it.
In reality, the corvettes of deep space that you refer to are actually well beyond their cannon flight envelopes. They do not handle that way, and do fly more level with long shallow turns.
If you want a better understanding of how naval battles of SW should handle, drag out your old SW: Rebellion disks and get a big space battle going with 10 or so ships on each side with 5 or so squadrons of fighters going at it.