Pilot Archive
Thread: Decayless PvP in Deep Space? Sorry.. I don't Buy It...
NajaPallida
Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:02 pm
#14
TomoRainer wrote:
Realism in decay isn't very important when we're talking about PVP. In fact, I'd argue it's completely irrelevant. The original post seemed to say that in real life, sh-- happens; true enough, but by implication, real life often isn't fun--so why, exactly, would we want to duplicate the parts of life that suck when we're playing a game?
There's already no PVP decay on the ground game, which sets a strong precedent for doing the same in JTL, where the mechanics of PVP are even more suited for a decayless system. It's extremely easy to die and when you're going up against another player it's quite likely you could do so in a matter of seconds. However long it takes them to land two shots. With the risk being that great and each encounter lasting such a brief time, where is the fun if your parts are being reduced to uselessness so quickly? Especially when many of those parts are RE'd ones that took weeks to assemble and often can only be regained by remastering a pilot tree?
My main problem with PVP decay isn't that it exists, though it wouldn't bug me if it didn't, but that it's so harsh. 10% each time you die. That adds up fast. A couple weeks cruising around, a handful of PVP events, and it's time to swap out the old stuff. Dropping it to 2-5% would be significantly more reasonable; adding a sector for non-masters like Deep Space is another possible solution, though not ideal. In any event, this game has little enough PVP as it is, and I really don't understand advocating rules that discourage it further. Who, exactly, are you taking revenge on?
"...so why, exactly, would we want to duplicate the parts of life that suck when we're playing a game"
- Look around the game environment... why did the Sony/Lucas Arts go to so much trouble to create a lifelike "feel" to the Star Wars economy. If they weren't interested in generating something that emulates life (in a futuristic aspect), I doubt that they would have spent several years in R&D of a virtual economy. If we take your argument a step further, we should also eliminate the needfor every crafting profession in the game because... guess what? They "emulate the parts of life that suck"... the parts where you have to go out into the real world and make enough money to be able to live, if not well enough to survive in luxury, at least well enough to simply survive.
"There's already no PVP decay on the ground game, which sets a strong precedent for doing the same in JTL".
- I never liked the fact that there is no decay in the ground game... The fact that the dev's were "steamrollered" by the mob mentality into ADDING decayless PvP into the ground game SETS your "precedent" fordecayless PvP in JtL. It wasn't designed into the game... whining people forced the devs to ADD it to the game post-release.
As for who I am "taking revenge on".... I would think that my target is quite evident in my opening post.
Finally, at no time in my opening post did I advocate return of PvP-Decay as it was, post-nerf. Elsewhere in this and other forums, I have openly advocated a return of PvP-decay at lowered levels... a desire openly advocated by others as well.
ssssssssssssssssssSSS(:-<
Ducimus
Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:03 pm
#15
Honestly, i think the crux of this thread is, for some people, when they Gank you, they want you to be hurt because of it. Your greif, their pleasure.
Otherwise they don't have as much fun and go on the messageboards and complain about how unrealistic things are, and what BS the game is for not catering to their needs.
Otherwise they don't have as much fun and go on the messageboards and complain about how unrealistic things are, and what BS the game is for not catering to their needs.
NeonCoyote
Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:05 pm
#16
Ducimus wrote:
Honestly, i think the crux of this thread is, for some people, when they Gank you, they want you to be hurt because of it. Your greif, their pleasure.
Otherwise they don't have as much fun and go on the messageboards and complain about how unrealistic things are, and what BS the game is for not catering to their needs.
Amen
Volgun
Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:57 pm
#17
I agree with Paja, I may be new to the forums but I know a lot about games and things about them. If there is no decay then what is going to force players to buy new stuff once the quality is capped. Nothing so the SW class will become useless and there will be few if not none to sell new stuff. This will destroy the game for new players since they will hve to search for weeks just to find a blaster. So your stuff decays a bit when you die? Deal with it, it isn't like you are short on money. The economy is so inflated with credits that even people that have been playng a week can afford quite a large amount of good stuff. One of the things that causes this is the insertion of credits into the economy through missions but no outlet of credits, so they just float around and pile up. One might say that maintence fees make up for that. Maintenence fees don't do anything. They probably take out 5% of the incoming credits. You guys need to ease up off of Paja. He just went about the wrong way of explaining it. Yes this isn't real life but it has been made for a life like feel and should have some aspects we don't like. Because despite how much we don't "like" things they are still necassary in the long run for a fun experience. There has to be a balance between "sucky" things and "fun" things this creates a balance and overall makes things much more enjoyable.
This is so cliche but I have to do it
...flame away!
This is so cliche but I have to do it
...flame away!
TheSkankinSpiv
Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:32 pm
#18
Volgun wrote:
I agree with Paja, I may be new to the forums but I know a lot about games and things about them. If there is no decay then what is going to force players to buy new stuff once the quality is capped. Nothing so the SW class will become useless and there will be few if not none to sell new stuff. This will destroy the game for new players since they will hve to search for weeks just to find a blaster. So your stuff decays a bit when you die? Deal with it, it isn't like you are short on money. The economy is so inflated with credits that even people that have been playng a week can afford quite a large amount of good stuff. One of the things that causes this is the insertion of credits into the economy through missions but no outlet of credits, so they just float around and pile up. One might say that maintence fees make up for that. Maintenence fees don't do anything. They probably take out 5% of the incoming credits. You guys need to ease up off of Paja. He just went about the wrong way of explaining it. Yes this isn't real life but it has been made for a life like feel and should have some aspects we don't like. Because despite how much we don't "like" things they are still necassary in the long run for a fun experience. There has to be a balance between "sucky" things and "fun" things this creates a balance and overall makes things much more enjoyable.
This is so cliche but I have to do it
Tip for those new to the forums: Read the whole thread
The main point that I will make for this argument: I just avoided PvP when it caused decay except for certain situations. Before the vast majority of my decay came from PvE and after the entire decay came from PvE.
Edit: I mean these tips just to help you, anyway another tip is try to break your message up into paragraphs to be easier to read.
Message Edited by TheSkankinSpiv on 01-10-2005 10:34 PM
Swampduke
Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:55 pm
#19
NajaPallida wrote:Decayless PvP? Get over yourselves....If you drive your car off of a hillside and turn the chassis into Ruffles Potato Chip, you can (possibly) straighten it out. The chassis will not be as strong after being repaired... simple laws of physics and metallurgy apply.If you're foolish enough to drive your car off of the same hillside, and again turn your chassis into a Ruffles Potato chip, you may or may not be able to straighten it. That is simply a fact of life. Again, simple laws of physics and metallurgy apply. The more times you stress a structure beyond its normal load specifications, the shorter it's lifespan will be.I ought to know.. I have destroyed several automobiles, and a couple of airframes, in my long and (somewhat) checkered lifetime.Time for a "reality check", kiddies... Fractures and warping in steel, aluminum and copper can only be "repaired" so many times... after which, all one can do is "buy a new chassis"... or "buy a new vehicle."In a simulation where there is an economy specifically designed to mimic the realities of a growing (or in our current case a "stagnating") gaming economy (to include a complete branch devoted to repair and refit of starships), whining about decay on ship chassis and components in a such volume and timbre that the Developers "give in to the Mob Mentality"... well it simply makes me sick./rant onWhat I have seen is a bunch of children that always have to have it easy... children that never thought, for a moment, that the game has something to teach... For that manner, children that never think... period."Boo hoo.. It's too hard to make exp... Make it easier,,,""Boo hoo.. I dont have time to make the credits required to repair my ship... make it easier...""Boo hoo.. I can't possibly make enough credits to replace components after PvP... Take PvP Decay AWAYYYY!!!""Boo hoo.. I don't understand... explain it to me in words of two syllables or less...""Boo hoo.. I can't... will you do it for me?"/rant offGrow up kiddees... if you dont do it now, then you'll eventually discover that reality tend's to be extremely harsh and uncaring.Sheesh... Now I'll have to listen to all the flames, snide remarks and downright hostility... Oh well.. nothing that i am not inured to.so.... "bring it".ssssssssssssssssssssssSSS(:-<
well spoken
Arryth
Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:08 pm
#20
Well Naja let me carefully explain something to you... This is a GAME... and games are supposed to be fun. PVP is supposed to be fun... haveing your ship trashed completely in a matter of days and then haveing to replace it is NOT fun, especially being that space does not generate cash enough to support its self. Decayless pvp is just fine. Go cry some where else.
Saabotage
Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:30 pm
#21
For online games its not bad fun! Online games are about buying, saleing, useing uber things. Things have to wear out in order for people who prefer to craft to be needed, PvP should have carrots and sticks in it. Right now we have 1 carrot and 0 sticks, Therefore pvp is just about as dull and dead as it can be, I haven't seen 1 obert player around in normal space sectors.I don't fear to fly at all! Their shouldbe reward and consequeces to everything we do! After all, its only a "game" right?
If you ask me their should be Decay (sorry, I'm not mad I just agree this is a decent stick). But even more, if I had to pick a carrot/stick for the game it would be "being able to loot player corpses (ships). Mayne not EVERYthing. But something would be cool! It won't decrease the amount of PvP in the game, or the people who pvp. What it would say is "If you fly overt, your open to loss.".
If you ask me their should be Decay (sorry, I'm not mad I just agree this is a decent stick). But even more, if I had to pick a carrot/stick for the game it would be "being able to loot player corpses (ships). Mayne not EVERYthing. But something would be cool! It won't decrease the amount of PvP in the game, or the people who pvp. What it would say is "If you fly overt, your open to loss.".
1 star me if you must...... /sigh/ it won't be the first time,.... I can take it....
Message Edited by Saabotage on 01-11-2005 12:46 AM
Rowgue
Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:13 am
#22
Ok the problem you have with your logic is that there are limits on the number of ships you can have in your datapad. If you could have more ships in your inventory then people would have a PvP ship that they just bought all the parts for and wouldn't mind if it got knocked down to nothing within a matter of days. As it stands good components just take too long to gather and get RE'd to make it worth the risk of losing it all so quickly.
The other problem is that nobody PvP's anyway. SOE wanted to increase incentive for PvP and the main reason most people gave for not doing it (whether they were telling the truth or not) is that they didn't want their ship and all of the components that took them weeks if not months to put together reduced to rubble within a matter of a couple days of PvP action. Hardly anybody was doing it anyway, so they thought if they changed this then more people would be interested in PvP. In my opinion I just think that most people are not that interested in PvP.
The other flaw in your logic is that maybe 0.5% of the game population actually go to deep space or participate in PvP whatsoever. Even after this change I routinely go to deep space looking to pick a fight, and I have yet to see even one other person there. So you are not going to see 100's of players running to your shop to buy new chasis' and components if they reinstate PvP decay, because quite simply not enough people do it to create a surge in the market. So your main income from decay related purchases is going to be from people still working up the pilot tree and biting off more than they can chew because they don't know how strong an enemy shipis.
Another problem is that if you manage to get your hands on some high level shields then you can pretty much let your components decay down to nothing as if something is strong enough to get through your shields then those hitpoints on the components will only keep you from dying maybe 3 seconds longer. I have had a capacitor that has been at 1 hitpoint for about 2 weeks now and I have been killed a few times getting too cocky with tier 5 gunboats. From my experience there is no difference in performance on it, so why should I replace it.
I am a shipwright myself, but also a master pilot so I can see it from both sides of the issue. If you have leveled pilot yourself then it quickly becomes obvious that you are only going to make sales as people are leveling up pilot. Once you hit master and have your ship decked out with some great stuff then the shipwright is no longer needed. Once you get to that point then your only objective in space is to either PvP or try to hunt down some good loot to have RE'd.
The constant bickering back and forth between pilots and shipwrights is just going nowhere. The fact is that shipwright the way the game is set up right now is simply not a viable business if you want to make lots of credits. There are a lot of problems with the way space and loot and RE'ing works in general that make the shipwright profession anything but a money maker. I am a shipwright and I do it because I like to craft and I enjoy trying to craft a reactor that I can stuff into that last bit of mass that someone has available on their ships and still have enough energy to supply what they have on it. I also do it because at least on my server I could never find a shipwright that would take the time to RE components for me, even when I offered them 100k to do it. I have no allusions that I will ever end up rich from my shipwright business even though I make a point of keeping my shop fully stocked as much as is possible with the time I have to play. I gave up master doctor to level shipwright, not because I thought I would get rich doing it, but because I wanted to do it. When I need money I just go do a tier 4 duty mission, between the award credits, the credit chip, and the loot I can sell I pull 400k every time. There is no promise by SOE that because you are a crafter that you are supposed to make huge profits selling your wares. And before I get the traditional "I shouldn't have to be a master pilot to be a shipwright" well you don't but how are you supposed to have a clue what you are doing if you don't fly. If you never flew a ship you would have no idea what truly good stats for a component really are. You would have no idea that low mass is much more important on some components than others or any number of other things that you can only learn by trying to cram a level 9 shield into a non MP ship and seeing how that limits you on the selection of your other components. So if you asked me you do have to be a pilot to be a shipwright.
Please stop rehashing the same issue again and again. There are at least 20 other threads that deal with this very issue you could have replied to one of those instead of creating yet another redundant post.
Ramona_Garcia
Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:19 am
#23
I think people should think back on when SOE made the stupid mistake to bring decay to the ground game. People had been complaining for months about death having no sting and other tall talk, and once we had decay... guess what, PvP died for a month or so, and I am not sure it ever really recovered. Decay in PvP drove a lot of casual players off who might have liked to pvp but would not risk decay on their stuff, hence why SOE was forced to drop PvP from factioned death later.
In space, it is the same. Some people will pvp with decay, but many more would if they did not have to risk their expensive stuff and ships for it. So, I say forget about decay in PvP, and make space come alive with dogfights.
Fernas
Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:30 am
#24
I agree with the original poster. sure, you have to make the customers happy, but, and more importantly, you have to have a world that works. if you take away enough decay and other "reality" features, you end up ruining the economy and skewing your whole game. in this instance, the devs should have focused more on what makes the game stronger and not on what makes the whiners happier.
Ramona_Garcia
Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:51 am
#25
Fernas wrote:
I agree with the original poster. sure, you have to make the customers happy, but, and more importantly, you have to have a world that works. if you take away enough decay and other "reality" features, you end up ruining the economy and skewing your whole game. in this instance, the devs should have focused more on what makes the game stronger and not on what makes the whiners happier.
Call me a whiner, but I would say pvp in space with lots of dogfights and players duking it out is what makes the game stronger, not decay, and players staying away from risk for fear of losing their expensive ships.
I could be wrong though - after all, who wants Star Wars in Star Wars?
Fernas
Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:17 am
#26
ahh, but you only see the short term. killing the game's economy will kill it more surely in the long run than scared players in the short run. and removing all money sinks is a sure way to kill the economy. then they have to do halfhearted lame "fixes" like the solo group change.