Pilot Archive
Thread: Ship Revamp
CuchulainnDarklight
Fri May 20, 2005 1:59 pm
#14
Ok ducimus, I may have generalised a bit!
Look at the posts though, he was the one that originally started flaming a guy for pointing out his observations!
I on the other hand flamed him for flaming the poor other guy!
2 wrongs may not make a right but if anyone should give an apology it is him to the other guy and until then all he gets from me is 1 upraised finger!
I for one am getting more and more annoyed at people who accuse others of wanting nerfs because they arent "uber" when all they are doing is posting their ideas on how to BALANCE the game and therefore make it better for everyone!
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 05-20-2005 02:00 PM
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 05-20-2005 02:01 PM
Ooola
Sat May 21, 2005 12:32 am
#15
Erahth wrote:
RebalMarineHunter wrote:
Eh, not asking much, but how about this?
The Jedi starfighter is an obsole...NERF NERF NERF!!! We're not uber anymore! NERF!!!
And someone hit me with a tractor beam from 850m away...it did no damage but NERF NERF!!
I love space, but changes LIKE these could add a lot to the feel and fun of the game.
Fixed
QFE.
CuchulainnDarklight
Sat May 21, 2005 12:56 am
#16
Ooola wrote:
Erahth wrote:
RebalMarineHunter wrote:
Eh, not asking much, but how about this?
The Jedi starfighter is an obsole...NERF NERF NERF!!! We're not uber anymore! NERF!!!
And someone hit me with a tractor beam from 850m away...it did no damage but NERF NERF!!
I love space, but changes LIKE these could add a lot to the feel and fun of the game.
Fixed
QFE.
Spot the 2 Imperial pilots with the lack of common sense andskills to use the superior manouverability of some imperial ships to counteract the A-wing and now he has his unbalanced I WIN button he is loath to lose it even if it destroys PvP in space in the meantime.
Oh , and kudos on both your skillful rebuttals of his ideas!
RebalMarineHunter
Sun May 22, 2005 7:44 am
#17
Look, this was not a rant but a post on making the ships make more sense with some ideas on how to accomplish this.
I pvp maybe 1% of the time in space, so in reality I could care less that the imps got the jedi fighter and something close to an "I win" button.
All of the clone wars ships should be obsolete. Modern TIE craft like the Interceptor and Rebel craft like the X-wing should outperform the ARC.
A wing should outperform the Jedi fighter. By itsdesign the A wing is the advanced evolution of the 2 Jedi starfighters.
Heavy TIE, Jaba and Headhunter, if they even need to exist they NEED to suffer penalties for there mass. So, you can have a light Headhunter or a heavy, but if you choose the heavy it will handle like an X but suffer the lack of 2 hardpoints.
Heavy X-wing is not a big deal, X-wing was under mass IMO anyhow. Its a great PVE ship but does not compete well in PVP against things like the new heavy Z-95 or anything smaller than itself really.
My personal favorite ship is the Firspray. Not a grand PVP ship but I love to fly it, fortunetly it was fairly uneffected by these changes.
Don't nerf the Jedi fighter, don't have to. Just fix the A-wing and maybe the TIE advanced/interceptor so they are better craft than the Jedi fighter.
The stinking Z-95 is a better ship than the A-wing now, other than its larger profile it has 1/3 more mass and handlesWAY better.
Yes, I know this has been posted on before, but I have not seen many posts like mine that actually are trying to offer some ideas on how to fix this mess. HATE seing these obsolete ships being better than what should be the most advanced ships during this time.
RebalMarineHunter
Sun May 22, 2005 7:53 am
#18
Erahth wrote:
RebalMarineHunter wrote:
Eh, not asking much, but how about this?
The Jedi starfighter is an obsole...NERF NERF NERF!!! We're not uber anymore! NERF!!!
And someone hit me with a tractor beam from 850m away...it did no damage but NERF NERF!!
I love space, but changes LIKE these could add a lot to the feel and fun of the game.
Fixed
Hey, never said that anyone hit me with a tractor beam at 850 meters, I said there range was 850 meters.
It is obvious that you did not read my post and have no clue as to what I was trying to say.
and in regards to the 850 meters if you read what I wrote it was to say that I want ALL guns and missles to have increased range, not to nerf the tractor beam.
So please, if your going to flame me, atleast show that you read the post first and understand it.
I want our ships to have increased range, increased roles and to fit into the time line better. If you have ideas on how to improve the situation then please share, otherwise just be silent in this thread, thanks.
Erahth
Sun May 22, 2005 9:44 am
#19
Well, I was trying to stay out of it...but seeing as how you guys just *can't* drop it...
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Spot the Imperial pilot with the lack of common sense andskills to use the superior manouverability of some imperial ships to counteract the A-wing (Like the JSF?) and now he has his unbalanced I WIN button (like the ships Ilack the common sense and skills to use)he is loath to lose it even if it destroys PvP in space in the meantime.
Oh , and kudos on your skillful rebuttal of his ideas!
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 05-20-2005 09:30 AM
Sorry friend...you totally contradicted yourself in that statement. Ok, so some of the imperial ships have superior manouverability? I agree...the interceptor, oppressorand advanced arenimble ships. Like the JSF. Yet, I don't hear (read?) anyone crying NERF over these ships. Strange, no?
So...then you tell me I "Lack the common sense and skills" to use such ships? If common sense and skill means that you use the best ship for the job, then wouldn't the JSF fit the bill? Or perhaps you'd like me to use the abovementioned ships, so you can cry nerf to those, too?
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
No offence but if he had his first PvP fight last night AND he doesnt know that using the missiles on the Oppressor is nto cheap but the whole point of taking an Opp into DS, then he owes the original poster he flamed an apologyfor flaming a guy who understands about ships and space combat, whilst he does not understand! Perhaps he should try learning about the subject matter first! I know i did when i first started flying and it worked for me and hundreds of others - you can expect everything to be handed to you on a plate!
Oh I apologise for stating he is a JSF flier if he isnt, though I dare say he now uses or will use it when he obtains it! However, if he isnt a JSF flier he has even less reason to flame a guy about something when he isnt cognisant of the facts fo the situation.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 05-20-2005 01:43 PM
Excuse me? Just because I feel missile kills are cheap *doesn't* mean that I owe anyone an appology. And since when was "the whole point in taking an Opp in to DS" was go shooting rebs with missiles? If that was the case, why does it have two gunslots?
Do not assume that because it's the FOTM, that's what everybody wants to do. If you want me to elaborate on exacly why I took the oppy do DS, I'm more than happy to. Oh, and I don't owe anyone an appology for my playstyle.
Whoever said I didn't know the subject matter?I know perfectly well what the JSF is capable of, and yes, I agree something needs to be done. I don't agree with people crying nerf straight off the bat. And I also don't agree with people who know that there are other posts dealing with this same situation, yet feel obliged to start another one.
RebalMarineHunter wrote:
Hey, never said that anyone hit me with a tractor beam at 850 meters, I said there range was 850 meters.
It is obvious that you did not read my post and have no clue as to what I was trying to say.
So what if their range is 850 meters? Is there a problem with that?
And yes, I did read your post. Unless you missed the bits I'd quoted from it?
RebalMarineHunter wrote:
I want our ships to have increased range, increased roles and to fit into the time line better.
Why should the later models be better? I give you an example: Lighthouses. Bear with me on this one. Or ignore it as you wish.
When lighthouses were first being constructed, centuries ago, some were built miles out to sea. The engineering know-how and skills are absolutely astounding if you stop to think of the technical challenges they faced. Technical challenges that we would have phenominal difficulty overcoming today, and it would be at huge expense.
How is that progress?
Another example. The Pistole 08, otherwise known as the Luger.
At the end of WWII, certain armies stormed the factories making the luger and burned all the records, blueprints and any other documents they could find, then destroyed the machine tools. What would have happened had that been an even more innovative firearm? Isn't it possible that the Empire went through the factories of the starfighter companies and seized assets/records?
How difficult it would be then, to produce a ship equal to the one you'd just been researching, especially only 32 years later!
Just because it's new, doesn't necessarily mean it's better.
Reek12
Sun May 22, 2005 11:48 am
#20
RebalMarineHunter wrote:
All of the clone wars ships should be obsolete.
Sure let's make the ships crap and the clone armor crap and all the rotw weapons crap, because they're all old. Then people would love to quest for them!
RebalMarineHunter
Sun May 22, 2005 2:19 pm
#21
Reek12 wrote:
RebalMarineHunter wrote:
All of the clone wars ships should be obsolete.
Sure let's make the ships crap and the clone armor crap and all the rotw weapons crap, because they're all old. Then people would love to quest for them!
NO ONE HAS READ MY POST!!! Or, they don't fully understand english!!!
Where did I post that I wanted big nerfs? Where did I post that 850 meters was a bad range for guns?
THIS IS WHAT I WANT AND HAVE BEEN SAYING!!!!
1) I want the new ships to fit into the timeline.
2) I want the new ships to fit intoa role WITHOUT obsoleting the newer (timeline wise) fighters.
3) More than a nerf to the new ships,I wantenhancement to the existing ships.
4) If they can give us a tractor beam that fires 850 meters, I don't want them to shorten its range, nore the range of the NPC turrets that fire at 1K, but I want our fighters and that of the NPC's to fire at greater ranges, as well as missle locks at greater ranges.
5) Finally, in summery, I want space to be more robust, more diverse and more fun all while sticking to the elements of what this timeline dictates. Jedi fighters and others can still have purpose, but should not outperform there newer more advanced counterparts.
And, older in war does nearly always mean worse. This war is taking place in a highly technologically advanced era, they have been at war for some time and have been working hard at winning for there respective sides. The equipment that they use only goes into production when it is proven in combat to outperform or fill a gap where others in the past have not.
The A-wing, Interceptor, Advanced and X-wing are all state of the art dogfighters and they should in most respects outperform anything that was in production during the clone war era. Not saying make them useless, but do give them weaknesses.
Examples I have made of how to do this, and there are many other ways no doubt, but what they have done to space stinks and makes no sense at all.
I have aced 2.8X, flew in JTL beta and I am a master shipwright who loves to quest. I love space and always have respected the balance there was. I wanted the "vintage" ships of the clone wars to come in and looked forward to it, but SOE screwed this up and I do want it corrected. What I wanted from this thread was for people to make suggestions not flames.
Reek12
Sun May 22, 2005 4:14 pm
#22
RebalMarineHunter wrote:
Where did I post that I wanted big nerfs?
Your first post, right at the top:
RebalMarineHunter wrote:
So, if that fighter [Jedi Starfighter] is to exist it should only have 1 gun and no missles nore the ability to equip armor.
KaylBreinhar
Sun May 22, 2005 5:27 pm
#23
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Erahth wrote:
RebalMarineHunter wrote:
Eh, not asking much, but how about this?The Jedi starfighter is an obsole...NERF NERF NERF!!! We're not uber anymore! NERF!!!And someone hit me with a tractor beam from 850m away...it did no damage but NERF NERF!!I love space, but changes LIKE these could add a lot to the feel and fun of the game.
Fixed
Spot the Imperial pilot with the lack of common sense and skills to use the superior manouverability of some imperial ships to counteract the A-wing and now he has his unbalanced I WIN button he is loath to lose it even if it destroys PvP in space in the meantime.Oh , and kudos on your skillful rebuttal of his ideas!Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 05-20-2005 09:30 AM
And yet I sense if Rebels could easily get their hands on the Eta-2, all cries for nerfing would go out the friggin' window.
Yalton
Sun May 22, 2005 7:44 pm
#24
1) I want the new ships to fit into the timeline.
2) I want the new ships to fit into a role WITHOUT obsoleting the newer (timeline wise) fighters.
3) More than a nerf to the new ships, I want enhancement to the existing ships.
4) If they can give us a tractor beam that fires 850 meters, I don't want them to shorten its range, nore the range of the NPC turrets that fire at 1K, but I want our fighters and that of the NPC's to fire at greater ranges, as well as missle locks at greater ranges.
5) Finally, in summery, I want space to be more robust, more diverse and more fun all while sticking to the elements of what this timeline dictates. Jedi fighters and others can still have purpose, but should not outperform there newer more advanced counterparts.
And, older in war does nearly always mean worse. This war is taking place in a highly technologically advanced era, they have been at war for some time and have been working hard at winning for there respective sides. The equipment that they use only goes into production when it is proven in combat to outperform or fill a gap where others in the past have not.
The A-wing, Interceptor, Advanced and X-wing are all state of the art dogfighters and they should in most respects outperform anything that was in production during the clone war era. Not saying make them useless, but do give them weaknesses.
Examples I have made of how to do this, and there are many other ways no doubt, but what they have done to space stinks and makes no sense at all.
I have aced 2.8X, flew in JTL beta and I am a master shipwright who loves to quest. I love space and always have respected the balance there was. I wanted the "vintage" ships of the clone wars to come in and looked forward to it, but SOE screwed this up and I do want it corrected. What I wanted from this thread was for people to make suggestions not flames.
________________________
Well lets take on these one by one.
1)They fit in the time line. It doesn't say they are newer then the JTL ships. Newer doesn't mena better. See below.
2)An honest request. Nothing to disagree with here.
3)See below.
4) Better range on guns is going to make it a real joust and make real fling obsolete. Why? because if I can spray the area where the Rebels are coming from with my krayte at that range I WILL kill them all before they can get close enough to use their stregnth against me. In PvP first hit is almost instant death. So jousting. He who hits first wins.
5)I agree. But the suggestions you ahve given aren't going to help any of us. Only make people mad. Another thing to think about is the fact that the devs don't like to remove stuff and seem to ahve some problem "fixing" stuff that is crafted. This results in Pre Nerf better then current. It would mean some Awesome Light fighters that can't be replecated for every one that comes later.
Now comes the fun part. Older in war will have two affects. One the larger more powerful industiral country will ahve better equipment and the side with less industry and lack of resources will get worse equipment as the war progress. An example is the Americain Civil War. Union firearms and geqr got better as the war progressed and the Confederate forces had to start salvaging from the Union. Since the Rebels don't have a good industrial base compared to the Empire they would be on the losing side. Meaning teh A wing would be WORSE then ANY clone wars fighter and a lot worse then the new Imperial fighters. Why? They wouldn't ahve the Tech to build better fighters and wouldn't ahve the resources to make them if they could design them.
2) I want the new ships to fit into a role WITHOUT obsoleting the newer (timeline wise) fighters.
3) More than a nerf to the new ships, I want enhancement to the existing ships.
4) If they can give us a tractor beam that fires 850 meters, I don't want them to shorten its range, nore the range of the NPC turrets that fire at 1K, but I want our fighters and that of the NPC's to fire at greater ranges, as well as missle locks at greater ranges.
5) Finally, in summery, I want space to be more robust, more diverse and more fun all while sticking to the elements of what this timeline dictates. Jedi fighters and others can still have purpose, but should not outperform there newer more advanced counterparts.
And, older in war does nearly always mean worse. This war is taking place in a highly technologically advanced era, they have been at war for some time and have been working hard at winning for there respective sides. The equipment that they use only goes into production when it is proven in combat to outperform or fill a gap where others in the past have not.
The A-wing, Interceptor, Advanced and X-wing are all state of the art dogfighters and they should in most respects outperform anything that was in production during the clone war era. Not saying make them useless, but do give them weaknesses.
Examples I have made of how to do this, and there are many other ways no doubt, but what they have done to space stinks and makes no sense at all.
I have aced 2.8X, flew in JTL beta and I am a master shipwright who loves to quest. I love space and always have respected the balance there was. I wanted the "vintage" ships of the clone wars to come in and looked forward to it, but SOE screwed this up and I do want it corrected. What I wanted from this thread was for people to make suggestions not flames.
________________________
Well lets take on these one by one.
1)They fit in the time line. It doesn't say they are newer then the JTL ships. Newer doesn't mena better. See below.
2)An honest request. Nothing to disagree with here.
3)See below.
4) Better range on guns is going to make it a real joust and make real fling obsolete. Why? because if I can spray the area where the Rebels are coming from with my krayte at that range I WILL kill them all before they can get close enough to use their stregnth against me. In PvP first hit is almost instant death. So jousting. He who hits first wins.
5)I agree. But the suggestions you ahve given aren't going to help any of us. Only make people mad. Another thing to think about is the fact that the devs don't like to remove stuff and seem to ahve some problem "fixing" stuff that is crafted. This results in Pre Nerf better then current. It would mean some Awesome Light fighters that can't be replecated for every one that comes later.
Now comes the fun part. Older in war will have two affects. One the larger more powerful industiral country will ahve better equipment and the side with less industry and lack of resources will get worse equipment as the war progress. An example is the Americain Civil War. Union firearms and geqr got better as the war progressed and the Confederate forces had to start salvaging from the Union. Since the Rebels don't have a good industrial base compared to the Empire they would be on the losing side. Meaning teh A wing would be WORSE then ANY clone wars fighter and a lot worse then the new Imperial fighters. Why? They wouldn't ahve the Tech to build better fighters and wouldn't ahve the resources to make them if they could design them.
CuchulainnDarklight
Sun May 22, 2005 8:04 pm
#25
What about the 30 years of peace between the war that spawned the jsf and the war that spawned the Awing. Did they just sit twiddling there thumbs? Anyway the rebels dont build their X-wings, they buy them from Incom just as the Empire buy theirs from Siener Fleet Systems and as they are in competition they try to outdo each other, for many more reasons both commercial and military than i can list here. A good example would be first world war fighters. They started out shooting at each other with pistols and hucking grenades at the trenches from fabric planes. By 1918 they had fighters with mounted, ranged machine guns and dedicated bombers. At the time of the second world war the RAF still used WW1 tech planes, but by the end of the war they had jet fighters. War causes quantum leaps in technology that does not occur in peacetime.
Now comes the fun part. Older in war will have two affects. One the larger more powerful industiral country will ahve better equipment and the side with less industry and lack of resources will get worse equipment as the war progress. An example is the Americain Civil War. Union firearms and geqr got better as the war progressed and the Confederate forces had to start salvaging from the Union. Since the Rebels don't have a good industrial base compared to the Empire they would be on the losing side. Meaning teh A wing would be WORSE then ANY clone wars fighter and a lot worse then the new Imperial fighters. Why? They wouldn't ahve the Tech to build better fighters and wouldn't ahve the resources to make them if they could design them.
Yalton
Sun May 22, 2005 9:56 pm
#26
Very true to a point. But I wasn't the one who brought up that they are at war.
First this War has been going on a few years. I understand that the Rebels buy their ships. What really suprises me is how nice the Empire is. Most Dictatorships remove ALL weapon manufacturing not under their direct control... Really suprised there is a place for the Rebels to buy ships.
Second the Rebels seem very well funded and have a lot of safe places. A ruler that is willing to build a weapon to destroy planets would eb willing to massacare populations that support the oppisition.
To be honest if I was the Emperoer there wouldn't have been ANY ship makers except ones controlled by the state and I would make it illegal to operate a ship with out being an Imperial pilot. This would give me complete control of commerce and the millitary. Since only Imperial pilots would fly and we know how corrupt they are then there would be some smuggling and uncontrolled commerce. But that wouldn't be enough to build and maintane real war fleets.
Given the fact that the Mon Cal Crusiers are such a big part of the Rebel fleet it is supprising the Mon Cal home world is still populated...
Now back from the tangent.
Is it smarter to keep developing new fighters or modify existing ones to better meet you're needs?
The answer is simple. Look at teh US Air Force and Navy. The F-14 and F-15 are both over 30 years old. Both have been modified a tremendous amount since they have entered service. Both are considered cutting edge fighters. They are going to be replaced by Bleeding Edge fighters. The F/A-18, F/A-22 and the F-35 are all expected to be inservice for at least 30 years. Does that mean the fighters won't change at all? No
All fighters are going to recieve upgrades to improve their performance. I would expect the Z-95 and the Y wing to ahve been upgraded to the point where they are still useful. Also given that the technolgy hasn't improved signigantly in 30 years and there wasn't a war to drive develpoment. Why should there be new fighter designs?
Now one piece of technolgy that isn't being really apllied here is the ability to negate inertia. What you say? They can't negate inertia.... WRONG. If they couldn't negate inerti they would die trying to jump form one place to another in hyperspace. Simple rules of physics would mean red splotches ont eh walls and seat so fevery hyper travel craft. Sinc they can negate inertia that means the only things tht controll how fast a ship can tunr is the vector control of the engine. So you shouls ahve a YT that can turn as fast as an A wing. Does this make sense? Not if you want balance and it isn't intuitive. But is is how the phsycis would work.
Edited for spelling.
First this War has been going on a few years. I understand that the Rebels buy their ships. What really suprises me is how nice the Empire is. Most Dictatorships remove ALL weapon manufacturing not under their direct control... Really suprised there is a place for the Rebels to buy ships.
Second the Rebels seem very well funded and have a lot of safe places. A ruler that is willing to build a weapon to destroy planets would eb willing to massacare populations that support the oppisition.
To be honest if I was the Emperoer there wouldn't have been ANY ship makers except ones controlled by the state and I would make it illegal to operate a ship with out being an Imperial pilot. This would give me complete control of commerce and the millitary. Since only Imperial pilots would fly and we know how corrupt they are then there would be some smuggling and uncontrolled commerce. But that wouldn't be enough to build and maintane real war fleets.
Given the fact that the Mon Cal Crusiers are such a big part of the Rebel fleet it is supprising the Mon Cal home world is still populated...
Now back from the tangent.
Is it smarter to keep developing new fighters or modify existing ones to better meet you're needs?
The answer is simple. Look at teh US Air Force and Navy. The F-14 and F-15 are both over 30 years old. Both have been modified a tremendous amount since they have entered service. Both are considered cutting edge fighters. They are going to be replaced by Bleeding Edge fighters. The F/A-18, F/A-22 and the F-35 are all expected to be inservice for at least 30 years. Does that mean the fighters won't change at all? No
All fighters are going to recieve upgrades to improve their performance. I would expect the Z-95 and the Y wing to ahve been upgraded to the point where they are still useful. Also given that the technolgy hasn't improved signigantly in 30 years and there wasn't a war to drive develpoment. Why should there be new fighter designs?
Now one piece of technolgy that isn't being really apllied here is the ability to negate inertia. What you say? They can't negate inertia.... WRONG. If they couldn't negate inerti they would die trying to jump form one place to another in hyperspace. Simple rules of physics would mean red splotches ont eh walls and seat so fevery hyper travel craft. Sinc they can negate inertia that means the only things tht controll how fast a ship can tunr is the vector control of the engine. So you shouls ahve a YT that can turn as fast as an A wing. Does this make sense? Not if you want balance and it isn't intuitive. But is is how the phsycis would work.
Edited for spelling.
Message Edited by Yalton on 05-22-2005 09:02 PM