Pilot Archive
Thread: Pitch, Yaw, Roll Acceleration and Max
Coran_Sienar
Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:13 am
#14
Rapax,
Rate is velocity as stated in your example. Degrees per second is velocity measurement. Degrees per second per second is acceleration measurementand is determined by the chassis. That's why if you put identical engines in an A-Wing and B-Wing, the B-Wing will feel more sluggish in comparison to the A-Wing.
And to further prove my point, I'll use your own quote:
"it is critical to understand that Turn Radius increases exponentially with velocity, or speed. A 500 knot turn at 9 G’s will not be twice the size of a 250 knot turn at 9 G’s, but roughly 4 times the size. Just remember that airspeed has a much greater effect on turn radius than does G force effect."
In this game, airspeed can equal 0. Plug that into your formula and see what turning radius you get.
What you said was:
"- "Turn radius" is defined by your engines YPR value. This can be changed through RE engineering. From my own experiments it takes *ROUGHLY* (not exactly) 5 or 6 units of YPR on an engine to make a 0.1 difference in your listed turn radius in the components screen."
Turn radius is determined by engine speed, not YPR.
Message Edited by Coran_Sienar on 04-04-2005 11:15 AM
Coran_Sienar
Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:22 am
#15
Sad, I wasn't aware of any hard caps on the YPR rates. I'll have to RE my level 10 engines to do some experimenting. The YPR should hit mid to high 80s on it, IIRC. Coupled with EO4, I'll have to see how it affects the turning on my Y-Wing...once I can equip the new engine. If you're right, EO4 shouldn't affect the turn rate since I'm already above the chassis maximum limit.
MasterSad
Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:30 am
#16
Coran_Sienar wrote:Sad, I wasn't aware of any hard caps on the YPR rates. I'll have to RE my level 10 engines to do some experimenting. The YPR should hit mid to high 80s on it, IIRC. Coupled with EO4, I'll have to see how it affects the turning on my Y-Wing...once I can equip the new engine.
Sorry, if I was confusing. I am referring to PYR speed caps on chassis, the FAQ specifies parameters of ships' chassis. That's why I said that if you put an engine with PYR of 80 on ships with PYR cap sof 100 and 300 the only factor that would mater is PYR acceleration values.
If you're right, EO4 shouldn't affect the turn rate since I'm already above the chassis maximum limit.
If I am right you wont even reach the chassis maximum limit (if chassis has PYR limit of TIe Advanced is 300 then the best you can reach with EO4 and engine with PYR of 80 is 80 + 40% (effectiveness of EO4)). And I dont know what happens when you do it with slow ships, perhaps chassis limits are negated when you use this special.
Message Edited by MasterSad on 04-04-2005 05:36 PM
Coran_Sienar
Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:43 am
#17
MasterSad wrote:
Coran_Sienar wrote:
Sad, I wasn't aware of any hard caps on the YPR rates. I'll have to RE my level 10 engines to do some experimenting. The YPR should hit mid to high 80s on it, IIRC. Coupled with EO4, I'll have to see how it affects the turning on my Y-Wing...once I can equip the new engine.
Sorry, if I was confusing. I am referring to PYR speed caps on chassis, the FAQ specifies parameters of ships' chassis. That's why I said that if you put an engine with PYR of 80 on ships with PYR cap sof 100 and 300 the only factor that would mater is PYR acceleration values.
If you're right, EO4 shouldn't affect the turn rate since I'm already above the chassis maximum limit.
If I am right you wont even reach the chassis maximum limit (if chassis has PYR limit of TIe Advanced is 300 then the best you can reach with EO4 and engine with PYR of 80 is 80 + 40% (effectiveness of EO4)). And I dont know what happens when you do it with slow ships, perhaps chassis limits are negated when you use this special.
Message Edited by MasterSad on 04-04-2005 05:36 PM
The Y Wing has a limit of 80.
Actually, I just did realize that your assumption that the chassis acceleration rate being a hard cap for turn rate is not correct. The B-Wing benefits from engine overloads and its chassis YP acceleration rate is 50.
Message Edited by Coran_Sienar on 04-04-2005 11:46 AM
Ducimus
Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:32 am
#18
Well, despite all of our thesis, speculation, theories, disagreements and rebuttles, i strongly suspect that theres more going on, then what we see in the component screen. My first post i kept very simplistic intentionally (that and i hadn't had any coffee yet 
)
But anyway, i think theres moer going on than what we see. Primarly because Engines used to have both Turn Rate and Radius listed when jTL launched. At some point (if i remember correctly) they decided to change it to where the how fast a ship can turn in a circle is dictated by the chassis to remove some of the complexity to the end user. Having all these numbers was baffeling to most, and most didnt realize what they were looking at. So they "said" they moved it to the chassis.
However, this is sony where talking about. I remember EQ where your ATK rating was a combination of numbers, but the merged it into one rounded number as watching your DMG mitgation and DMG potential stat ratings they considered confusing to the end user. SO they changed the UI for a single number, but the math on the back end was still the same i beleive. We could have the same situation here.
EDIT: but ya the YPR accelration rate "appears" to be hardcapped. No part you put into the ship will ever change the listed YPR value. But the radius (or what im assuming to be the radius) changes depending on what engine you use. Or am i the only one who's noticed this?
One intresting note the Xwing and T/A have identical Pitch and Roll acceration rates as listed on the component screen.
)But anyway, i think theres moer going on than what we see. Primarly because Engines used to have both Turn Rate and Radius listed when jTL launched. At some point (if i remember correctly) they decided to change it to where the how fast a ship can turn in a circle is dictated by the chassis to remove some of the complexity to the end user. Having all these numbers was baffeling to most, and most didnt realize what they were looking at. So they "said" they moved it to the chassis.
However, this is sony where talking about. I remember EQ where your ATK rating was a combination of numbers, but the merged it into one rounded number as watching your DMG mitgation and DMG potential stat ratings they considered confusing to the end user. SO they changed the UI for a single number, but the math on the back end was still the same i beleive. We could have the same situation here.
EDIT: but ya the YPR accelration rate "appears" to be hardcapped. No part you put into the ship will ever change the listed YPR value. But the radius (or what im assuming to be the radius) changes depending on what engine you use. Or am i the only one who's noticed this?
One intresting note the Xwing and T/A have identical Pitch and Roll acceration rates as listed on the component screen.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 04-04-2005 11:37 AM
Ducimus
Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:19 pm
#19
I think our disagreement can be summerized as follows:
One of us is saying, "to-may-to" and one of us is saying "To-mah-to" - but were both essentually saying the same thing as far as YPR is concerned. Only i choose not to do the acutal math (never my best subject while in school )
We can get as technical as we want to but gameplay wise i think its going to boil down to:
- Some chassis turn faster than others
- High engine YPR = good | Higher engine YPR = better.
- Top speed on engine, its effects on corner velocity, and the resulting radius of the turn circle. ( which is something alot of ppl dont think about, Fast isnt always better)
One of us is saying, "to-may-to" and one of us is saying "To-mah-to" - but were both essentually saying the same thing as far as YPR is concerned. Only i choose not to do the acutal math (never my best subject while in school
)We can get as technical as we want to but gameplay wise i think its going to boil down to:
- Some chassis turn faster than others
- High engine YPR = good | Higher engine YPR = better.
- Top speed on engine, its effects on corner velocity, and the resulting radius of the turn circle. ( which is something alot of ppl dont think about, Fast isnt always better)
Coran_Sienar
Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:55 am
#20
Those numbers that you're talking about are the chassis acceleration values which do not benefit from different engines or overload programs. If you popped an engine in a Z-95, it would read 600/600/300 for YPR acceleration. Then if you popped the same engine in an X-Wing, it would then read 200/300/150.
The only backdoor calculations that are happening are at what throttle setting you achieve your maximum turn rate for your chassis/engine combination. I still stand by my original post and can confirm that those calculations are correct. Your chassis YPR acceleration rates are an indicator of how quickly you'll achieve your engine's maximum YPR turn rates. Slower speed engines with higher YPR rates will allow you the best chance of turning inside an opponent.
MasterSad
Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:50 am
#21
Coran_Sienar wrote:The Y Wing has a limit of 80.
Actually, I just did realize that your assumption that the chassis acceleration rate being a hard cap for turn rate is not correct. The B-Wing benefits from engine overloads and its chassis YP acceleration rate is 50.
Why I think that this 50 (for B-Wing) or 80 (for Y-Wing) is a speed cap because if you look at you your ship properties when pressing 'V' (top left corner) you see values explicitly mentioned as acceleration values and those are not integers but float point values and are very much different from the value specified in the FAQ (more like values between 0 and 10).
Do you think you could explain that?
Coran_Sienar
Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:12 am
#22
The odd thing is that silly 1-10 scale on our system status versus the degrees per second that we were used to from early JtL.
One thing I forgot to check is if those YPR Acceleration values (1.2 for the Y-Wing) increase with engine overload programs. I do know that the YPR turn rate values do increase past the stated maximum chassis YPR acceleration values. A Tie Interceptor will have a P acceleration of 5.1 (IIRC) and that should equate to 300 deg/sec^2 acceleration. My rough guess is that each unit of "mystery value" equals 60 deg/sec^2 for acceleration and 60 deg/sec for turn rate from the engines.
Subjectively, I do believe that the acceleration values on the chassis is modified by engine overload programs. All of the chasses that I've used EO3 and EO4 on have had "snappier" movement, afterwards.
MasterSad
Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:32 am
#23
Coran_Sienar wrote:The odd thing is that silly 1-10 scale on our system status versus the degrees per second that we were used to from early JtL.
So you're saying that, for example, the number 300 from FAQ is old system (beta) numbers and the floating point numbers is the current system?
One thing I forgot to check is if those YPR Acceleration values (1.2 for the Y-Wing) increase with engine overload programs. I do know that the YPR turn rate values do increase past the stated maximum chassis YPR acceleration values.
Would be nice to check that...
Coran_Sienar
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:05 am
#24
I plan on doing some more tests, tonight. I'll report back with what I find.
MasterSad wrote:
Coran_Sienar wrote:
The odd thing is that silly 1-10 scale on our system status versus the degrees per second that we were used to from early JtL.
So you're saying that, for example, the number 300 from FAQ is old system (beta) numbers and the floating point numbers is the current system?
(YES)
One thing I forgot to check is if those YPR Acceleration values (1.2 for the Y-Wing) increase with engine overload programs. I do know that the YPR turn rate values do increase past the stated maximum chassis YPR acceleration values.
Would be nice to check that...
Lord_Raven
Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:40 am
#25
just going to toss in some data i have noticed... yt1300 with an pyr of 85 85 87 ts of 92.9 and e o 4 turns on a dime at its best turning speed.... same ship with a ypr 58 58 58 102.5 and e override 4 takes forever to make a circle at best turning speed... i have picked to use the low ypr high topspeed one on the yt so i dont turn to fast for gunners and still break 1547 speed 
but on my firespray the slightly slower 92.9 with the higher ypr does its turning job alot better yt with high ypr turned on a non moving awing at 75% speed and almost never flew more than 5 m from it high tops speed low ypr at 75% made real big orbits around said sitting awing....
but on my firespray the slightly slower 92.9 with the higher ypr does its turning job alot better yt with high ypr turned on a non moving awing at 75% speed and almost never flew more than 5 m from it high tops speed low ypr at 75% made real big orbits around said sitting awing....
Coran_Sienar
Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:55 am
#26
I've confirmed that the chassis acceleration values are NOT a hard limit on turning rates. Engine overloads also do not affect the chassis acceleration values.
Also, in order to figure out how long it will take you hit your max turn rate, divide the engine's turn rate with the appropriate acceleration value on your chassis.
So in my Y-Wing, the chassis P acceleration value is 1.2. My P value is 1.2 So it will take 1 second at 50% throttle to hit the maximum P rate of 63.2 deg/sec (using a reward engine for tests). Then I will finish a complete turn in about 6 seconds. After engine overload 3, my engine P rate is 1.4. It will take 1.17 seconds for my Y-Wing to accelerate to the maximum pitch turn rate as dictated by my engines at 50% throttle, but because I'm turning faster, it will take me 4.6 seconds tocomplete the circle.
Hope this helps
Message Edited by Coran_Sienar on 04-11-2005 08:00 AM