Pilot Archive
Thread: PvP damage output and weapon overload
Yu do realize that:
1. The further the damage is reduced the more Emergency weapons will become a necessity.
2. Increasing the Shield hit points on higher tier shields will make more of the same problem as on the ground. Everyone will be forced into the heaviest possible ship to hold the "uber" shields.
3. Engine numbers need to be further tweaked to provide more defintion between light and heavy fighters. Right now it stands that the heavier the fighter the faster it moves.
They're completely different systems, styles, and skill types; therefore, they need to be programmed with a different approach to balancing than the ground game.
Doing it as was done, and comparing either to the other, is like comparing Apples and Cow Patties.
Scoooter wrote:
_Paclya_ wrote:
bump for people interested in PvP (very rare it seems)
Why be interested. One shot kills are basically stupid and with imps having the emergency overcharge why bother.
Craxus wrote:
Jeisyn wrote:
imo - 1 of 2 things need to happen.
either further reduce damage in pvp... or put some more time and effort into it and allow higher max values on shields.
instead of 1800-1900 on level 7 shields, bump that up to somewhere around 3500-5000. level 9+ shields should be higher yet (scaling with the mass requirements).
that would prevent one-shots with current weapons dmg, but still be a fairly quick shield take-down (3 to 5 shots on a level 7 blaster). a decimator/nova should have AT LEAST 10,000 point shields. even that seems low to me, with current weapon damage.
NPC ships should then be given slightly stronger blasters to make up for our higher shield output (i find PVE is relatively balanced, except maybe some accuracy issues where they are too accurate, imo).
Message Edited by Jeisyn on 11-22-2004 10:43 AM
Yu do realize that:
1. The further the damage is reduced the more Emergency weapons will become a necessity.
I doubt emergency weapons will become the standard for pvp. I think people will stick with Weapon Overload droid commands because they're "permanent" (until you manually turn'em off or land). Using E-weapons is like popping muon gold. sure, it's great for 5 minutes, but the side effects are risky.
2. Increasing the Shield hit points on higher tier shields will make more of the same problem as on the ground. Everyone will be forced into the heaviest possible ship to hold the "uber" shields.
I disagree here. Currently, everyone is forced into the lightest/most manueverable possible ship to pvp - the problem lies in that the slower/larger ships don't have the shield points or armor to make them worth while. you can still 3-shot a YT1300. yes, you can cram a larger engine in there with a higher top speed, but it's still going to turn like a pig, which is worthless in a dogfight unless your shields can buy you enough time to make your turrets effective. right now, with 2500 shields, a large carrier/assault gunboat type of ship is absolutely useless. it's one big sitting duck. they need at LEAST 10,000 hit points (i'd say level 10 shields should be pushing 15k to 20k hitpoints) so that it takes multiple fighters, a very skilled pilot,or some heavy ordnance to take one down. Currently a novice in an X-wing could easily solo a Decimator on the first pass. that is not realistic at all.
Ideally, you would pvp in a group with some light fighters to dogfight, some strike bombers (y-wing/b-wing/tie bomber/oppressor) - and a nova/decimator to harass nearyby fighters and target the enemies nova/decimator.
Unfortunately, with the state of weapons vs shields and armor, all you need is a whole squadron of a-wings or tie advanced. there is absolutely no reason to use any other ships in PVP. that's broken JTL pvp.
If i'm in an A-wing and i come up against a group of imps with some tie advanced and a decimator, i want to beshouting over ventrillo "bombers, target that Decimator NOW! All fighters engage the TA's to cover the bombers!"right now i would just say "okay, A-wingOne, take out the decimator, the rest of you a-wings target the TA's" -- bombers? who needs bombers?? -that aint right.
3. Engine numbers need to be further tweaked to provide more defintion between light and heavy fighters. Right now it stands that the heavier the fighter the faster it moves.
well.. yes and no... currently a high-mass ship will be able to load up a high-mass engine and go faster IN A STRAIGHT LINE. But there ARE penalties for high-mass ships. If you put a 92 speed engine in an X-wing, it will travel at about 850 with the sfoils closed (that number might be off a bit). if you put that same engine into a y-wing, it'll only go about, what, 780? Ships should, and do, lose top speed because of mass. I agree it's not exactly right at the moment, but it's not that far off.
Straight line speed is one thing, but once you've engaged the enemy you either need high manueverability (fighters) or high shields hitpoints (assault bombers/gunboats). a b-wing is the suck in pvp because you can't turn it for crap and you're still using shields with less than 5000 hitpoints. you will NEVER get a shot at an enemy who doesn't come straight at you. sure, you can run away real fast with that 103 top speed engine with overload 3 turned on... but what good is that doing anyone?
Space combat is about choosing high manueverability with low shields/lower output weapons(a-wing/x-wing/tie fighters) vs high weapon outpout, heavy ordnance and high shield hitpoints at the cost of manueverability. each option has a roll to play and a good pvp group should need both.
when you can slag a nova with one tie advanced strafe, things aren't working as they should.
Message Edited by Jeisyn on 11-22-2004 04:37 PM
NightGun wrote:
Agreed If MP ships are one or two shot kills we have a problem. The key is each ship class should have high and low points. Heavy fighter should have very big everything. Medium fighters probably big weapons less defense (or reverse your prefrence). Light fighters small weapons small defense big enging good manuvering. We have to remember that we want differnt ships to be good at different things. I should not be able to fit the same guns on a light fighter I fit on the heavys. The lights should be 1-2 shot kills a medium depending on load out 2-5 and a heavy 6-7 this is based on average(medium) grade weapons Light fighter with lower damage weapons should probably need to add about 1 shot and heavys should be able to subtract one.
MP ships should be a whole differnt class with either new heavier duty loot to equip them with or extra slots to slide additonal components into.
Shielding should be roughly twice a heavy fighter in my opion these are frieghters that have been reequiped to fight.
Weapons should be more on line with capital ships?
Reactor and Engines should also be bigger (this is one big ship).
I maintain that the Tier system and the Class system need to be segregated.
There's too much difference between Certification levels - at Tier 1 it takes up to6 shots to kill a Tier1 NPC, yet at Tier2 you can 1-shot kill the same NPC. That's ridiculous.
I've got a Cert10 Laser on my Decimator with a Max Damage just shy of 4,000. :0
While I think that's appropriate, if I wanted to be nasty I could put that same gun on my Oppressor.... and sacrificea launcher for it. Even trade? hardly. A gun is 10x more useful than ordinance. Even spacebombs. What do you think that gun would do in PvP vs. a Nova? Or any other ship?
More nasty, paired with a 3,500 damage gun. 25% reduction or otherwise, with 141k mass allowance, I can fit a great engine, decent shields, droid interface, booster, those 2 weaps, and one-shot anything in the game if it's flown by a player. 2-shots maybe, for a Nova or YT.
7500 * 65 * .75= 3,656.25 - twice per second.
without running any programs.
There absolutely must be a separation of what can be made to fit in what ship.
NightGun wrote:Ok so basically it seems like PVP damage is Ok? without specials
I don't really find it okay. Look at the number; it's ONE shot with ONE weapon you use from tier 3.
If your ship has linked weapon, you burn a mk5 shield in one salvo and destroy the ship the second one.
If you get weapon overload it's even faster
Actually in PvP you just get a fast ship and don't even load armor neither shield.
I don't have the solution for having a better system, but I don't feel that actual situation is good (and I LOVED playing Ghost Recon in multiplayer ... this game has nothing comparable with JtL).
This is exactly the type of setup that i would enjoy playing!
NightGun wrote:
Agreed If MP ships are one or two shot kills we have a problem. The key is each ship class should have high and low points. Heavy fighter should have very big everything. Medium fighters probably big weapons less defense (or reverse your prefrence). Light fighters small weapons small defense big enging good manuvering. We have to remember that we want differnt ships to be good at different things. I should not be able to fit the same guns on a light fighter I fit on the heavys. The lights should be 1-2 shot kills a medium depending on load out 2-5 and a heavy 6-7 this is based on average(medium) grade weapons Light fighter with lower damage weapons should probably need to add about 1 shot and heavys should be able to subtract one.
MP ships should be a whole differnt class with either new heavier duty loot to equip them with or extra slots to slide additonal components into.
Shielding should be roughly twice a heavy fighter in my opion these are frieghters that have been reequiped to fight.
Weapons should be more on line with capital ships?
Reactor and Engines should also be bigger (this is one big ship).
Equally, a ship listed as 'light fighter' class has no business fitting a spacebomb launcher, and that can be done with very little sacrifice.
Rhysen wrote:
Scoooter wrote:
_Paclya_ wrote:
bump for people interested in PvP (very rare it seems
Why be interested. One shot kills are basically stupid and with imps having the emergency overcharge why bother.
Never played any real FPS like Rogue Spear, have you? Nor flew a shieldless, near armorless(as they're supposed to be)Tie Fighter in XvT? One shot kills are the penultimate of skill in skill-based PvP. The skill of maintaining situational awareness, effective use of countermeasure and group tactics to avoid getting smoked in an environment that allows 1, maybe 2, mistakes.
Honestly I think people are too accustomed to fighting NPCs and expect the minute or so of turning and rolling to display their "mad skillz". The NPCs have hyped up stats to supplement their lack of intelligence and skill. Reducing damage in PvP will only make JTL more farming based than it already is. Because when the game is supplementing a pilot's lack of skill with the ability to take multiple hits he shouldn't be taking, equipment matters more than skill
Oh yes I have.
Right now pvp is just about maneuverability. A-wings and interceptors. Great variance. Why because a fully shielded YT-1300 is down in two hits tops.
The system should allow for the different ship types to have a reason for existance.
And most FPS games you can one shot kill with a VERY accuratly placed shot and it does not happen often. Here it's all the time and no skilled accuracy involved. There there is no reason for armor and shields. They dont do you any good. Larger ships have zero benefit they die just as easily. So with larger ships you sacrifice maneuverabilty for firepower but die just as fast.
It's not balanced
NightGun wrote:
I beleive balance could be achived with the way things are (I like the flexability this system allows. By tweaking mass numbers on the differnt certs. I would propse the follwoing.
Light fighters - Level 5 and under cert equipment
Medium - Level 6-7
Heavy Level 8-9
MP - Level 10
Level 10 loot should be heavy enough to mark it as capitol ship grade and by virtue of Very Very High mass be usable only on MP ships unless someone gives up virtually eveything on a Heavy.
Other loot should be mass high enough to limit usage to within those ranges however allow enough variounce that a light fighter could equip a heavy gun but it would give up all armor and shileds and be running with sucha a small CAP that the gun would only fire 1-2 shots before having to wait for a recharge. I think the mass on both Ships and components still needs a bit of tweaking before we get their but I want to see it happen.
I hope that PVP damage is tweaked also to allow differnt ships their proper roles in PVP combat.
(Also it really bugs me to suggest this because I feel horrible not be able to use my super great level 10 loot I get but I think this may be how the Devs had intended the ship differnces to come about.)
So Light Fighters get the shaft?
Speed is key. Take a light fighter up use your gift engine go to kessel hit engine overload three and you'll stay rioght behind an A-wing.
Speed speed speed speed. Under these numbers the Heavy Fighter and Bomber ans MPs will always be faster than the light fighters thus voiding there greatest asset.
As a light fighter I should be able to engage and disengage at will against a bomber making it work to get that one shot on me that will kill me.
A faster heavy bomber means I will be trailing behind. All he has to do is fly straight to get the distance to turn around and fire at me.
A lot of stuff has to change. Its wuickly becoming Composite in space.