Pilot Archive
Thread: In regards to the recent EP3 and /launchmissle posts.
FeydmanKassan wrote:
TomoRainer wrote:
Just gonna toss this out there.
Just because something's in the game doesn't mean it belongs there. There are plenty of valid reasons for "wrong" items or abilities to be in the game--whether from a simple mistake, or not understanding how the subject would play out once it got in the jungle of a live server, or because the game's moved to a point where that item or ability is no longer appropriate.
So to say "It's in the game, thus it's legal" doesn't really mean anything more than it'd take some effort to get it altered or removed. It certainly doesn't stand as a moral defense on its own.
I don't think a moral defense is required; this is not a moral issue. It's a technical issue involving the overall balancing of the game and should be viewed as such. The moral issue angle is simply an attempt to ge t people to behave the way you (collectively) watn them to behave. You don't offer anything to compensate Freelancersfor the loss of the ability; the reason being that none of you really cares about "balance" so much as getting rid of a feature that you don't like. I'm not saying that you don't have valid arguments; I'm just trying to point out that epulse is hardly the only issue when it comes to balance. But I don't see anyone taking up the banner for the Freelancers and saying that maybe something needs to be done to level the playing field with regards to their ships. Is that because any changes would hit a little too close to home? I don't know; but after reading this thread, I have begun to wonder. I bet if I tried to make a moral argument that Freelancers having to PvP against tiny A-wings and TIEs is cheap or unfair, that I would be flayed alive on this board. Trying to make some kind of ethical argument out of this is just good old fashioned schoolyard peer pressure at work. The cool kids don't like it and if you want to hang with them you have to play by their rules.
If the community is truly interested in improving the balance of the game, then everything has to be put on the table and looked at. Only a comprehensive review of theentire space environment along with concrete suggestions as to what needs to be fixed or removed will get the attention of those who have the means to actually do anything about it. Personally,I wantto see a wider variety of ship in space. I want them all to be at least viable in PvP, including POBs and heavy fighters. If giving up something is necessary to accomplish that, then I'm more than willing. But letting a relative minority of vets pick and choose what abilities I can use? No.
I took the time to write all of this because I DO think that the pilot community is a cut above some of the other profs in this game; and because I love the space game so much. I respect the time and energy Tomo and others have put into JTL. I just think that in this case, many are blinded by their own perspective and are unable to take a step back and see the big picture. This isn't just about epulse; it's about how all of this stuff fits together.
Well I am strongly against Epulse mainly because anything else in pvp can be countered. Even from flying a 66k mass A-wing I can still put up more than a good fight vs. pilots who even throw missiles at me. Even if those pilots fly JSF etc it is still more than possible to prevail. With Epulse though, you can't.
Now I understand about skills etc and how they're earned but as I said, apart from Epulse 3no other pilot faction has any useful ablities in pvp (Ok, Rebels have/vrepair but the time a Rebel has to resort to that means they're out of the game and even post repair they won't be putting up much of a fight a. because their ship will still be fubared and b. it'll reset overloads anyway so they'll be a sitting duck)so it really wouldn't be too much of an issue if it were removed. It'd only be an issue with the minority who rely on epulse to 'win' in pvp.
2.At this moment, the enemy recieves the warning message and they should know that inthree seconds? (maybe more, I don't know) that a 300 metre blast of devastating energy is going to probably wipe them out.
3.Epulse takes effect and it is up to the target to be clear by now (easier said than done but at least semi-achievable with the warning). If the target is still in range, they die.
4.Effects of using this command are a. a couple of minutes time delay before the Epulser may reuse the command. b. Drains shields or capacitor or both.
Message Edited by LeaphChausew on 09-23-2005 09:21 AM
LeaphChausew wrote:
FeydmanKassan wrote:
TomoRainer wrote:
Just gonna toss this out there.
Just because something's in the game doesn't mean it belongs there. There are plenty of valid reasons for "wrong" items or abilities to be in the game--whether from a simple mistake, or not understanding how the subject would play out once it got in the jungle of a live server, or because the game's moved to a point where that item or ability is no longer appropriate.
So to say "It's in the game, thus it's legal" doesn't really mean anything more than it'd take some effort to get it altered or removed. It certainly doesn't stand as a moral defense on its own.
I don't think a moral defense is required; this is not a moral issue. It's a technical issue involving the overall balancing of the game and should be viewed as such. The moral issue angle is simply an attempt to ge t people to behave the way you (collectively) watn them to behave. You don't offer anything to compensate Freelancersfor the loss of the ability; the reason being that none of you really cares about "balance" so much as getting rid of a feature that you don't like. I'm not saying that you don't have valid arguments; I'm just trying to point out that epulse is hardly the only issue when it comes to balance. But I don't see anyone taking up the banner for the Freelancers and saying that maybe something needs to be done to level the playing field with regards to their ships. Is that because any changes would hit a little too close to home? I don't know; but after reading this thread, I have begun to wonder. I bet if I tried to make a moral argument that Freelancers having to PvP against tiny A-wings and TIEs is cheap or unfair, that I would be flayed alive on this board. Trying to make some kind of ethical argument out of this is just good old fashioned schoolyard peer pressure at work. The cool kids don't like it and if you want to hang with them you have to play by their rules.
If the community is truly interested in improving the balance of the game, then everything has to be put on the table and looked at. Only a comprehensive review of theentire space environment along with concrete suggestions as to what needs to be fixed or removed will get the attention of those who have the means to actually do anything about it. Personally,I wantto see a wider variety of ship in space. I want them all to be at least viable in PvP, including POBs and heavy fighters. If giving up something is necessary to accomplish that, then I'm more than willing. But letting a relative minority of vets pick and choose what abilities I can use? No.
I took the time to write all of this because I DO think that the pilot community is a cut above some of the other profs in this game; and because I love the space game so much. I respect the time and energy Tomo and others have put into JTL. I just think that in this case, many are blinded by their own perspective and are unable to take a step back and see the big picture. This isn't just about epulse; it's about how all of this stuff fits together.
Well I am strongly against Epulse mainly because anything else in pvp can be countered. Even from flying a 66k mass A-wing I can still put up more than a good fight vs. pilots who even throw missiles at me. Even if those pilots fly JSF etc it is still more than possible to prevail. With Epulse though, you can't.
Now I understand about skills etc and how they're earned but as I said, apart from Epulse 3no other pilot faction has any useful ablities in pvp (Ok, Rebels have/vrepair but the time a Rebel has to resort to that means they're out of the game and even post repair they won't be putting up much of a fight a. because their ship will still be fubared and b. it'll reset overloads anyway so they'll be a sitting duck)so it really wouldn't be too much of an issue if it were removed. It'd only be an issue with the minority who rely on epulse to 'win' in pvp.
Now I'm not saying there shouldn't be skills that can be used in pvp, but the fact is if epulse were removed it wouldn't make much of a difference to the mechanics or practicalitys of pvp. I wouldn't mind Epulse and it's catastrophic destructive capabilities if it were counterable in some way. All the remarks such as 'Keep out of range' and 'use a wingman as bait' are unrealistic. Maybe a two second 'WARNING ENERGY SURGE DETECTED!' type of warning flashing along the prospective Epulse victim's HUD a couple of seconds before the blast took effect would be useful. It'd give everyone a fighting chance of getting clear of that 300 metres or whatever then.
Basically it'd work like this;
1. Epulser presses Epulse key.
2.At this moment, the enemy recieves the warning message and they should know that inthree seconds? (maybe more, I don't know) that a 300 metre blast of devastating energy is going to probably wipe them out.
3.Epulse takes effect and it is up to the target to be clear by now (easier said than done but at least semi-achievable with the warning). If the target is still in range, they die.
4.Effects of using this command are a. a couple of minutes time delay before the Epulser may reuse the command. b. Drains shields or capacitor or both.
I think that'd be fair. It'd still let those who depend on the command work their ways, but it'd at least make them work a little harder for it.
I would consider this revised version of Epulse as a more credible tactic. I mean, firstly it'll make the target go evasive, trying to put as much distance between them and the epulser as possible. This will open them up as easier targets to blasters too so really the command will have an overwhelming advantage over anything else out there.
Personally, I'd like the command to be limited to larger, slower ships but that won't ever happen. Now consider the Epulser. All they have to do is chase their target during this brief warning time. I could still see epulse being considered an 'I win' button if this were the case by many but the point is...it would be at least possible to counter.
Oppinions?
Message Edited by LeaphChausew on 09-23-2005 09:21 AM
Now THAT is a cool and totally acceptable change. More importantly, it's not only doable from a coding standpoint, but it also makes sense! I don't think any longer delay is needed than is currently in the game, but I could live with it being longer. I would prefer just a cap drain but I think the scenario needs to be field tested to see what's enough/too much of a penalty. And it should not be a tactic thatcan be quickly repeated.
It has my vote....
Now, if we could put together ideas to address other balance issues, we'd have something SOE might look at.
TomoRainer wrote:
Just gonna toss this out there.
Just because something's in the game doesn't mean it belongs there. There are plenty of valid reasons for "wrong" items or abilities to be in the game--whether from a simple mistake, or not understanding how the subject would play out once it got in the jungle of a live server, or because the game's moved to a point where that item or ability is no longer appropriate.
So to say "It's in the game, thus it's legal" doesn't really mean anything more than it'd take some effort to get it altered or removed. It certainly doesn't stand as a moral defense on its own.
It's not a moral defense I'm talking about Tomo, it's about a small minority of the playerbase demanding an overall change to the game because it affects one facet of the game - and in most cases the area affected is PvP. I don't buy into the theory that PvP drives a MMORPG, and if you take a cold look at SWG, it certainly isn't PvP-centric. In fact, the game has consistently been changed to provide more PvE content. I doubt I will ever agree with anyone that suggests a change to a game mechanic simply because it makes it harder on them to PvP - and "win". If you look at any game, you're going to find complaints that something about PvP is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. Simply translated, that is someone saying "I can't win every single time in these circumstances, so I want changes made to the game to maximize my character abilities, while weakening my opponent."
EP3, in an of itself is not a massively overpowered aspect of the game. If you step back and take a look at PvP in space - and I'm talking about SWG as an entity, and not a few galaxies - there is very little PvP. Split up the pilot numbers into 3 different factions, and you've got even fewer pilots that have the capability to even *use* EP3. Of the pilots that do have the ability, how many of them actively use it?
Instead of learning tactics to counter EP3, it's a lot easier to demand that it be removed from the game, regardless of the fact that the number of players impacted by the removal would be far greater than the number of players that are complaining about it.
So if you're concerned about morals, why is it you don't seem to have a problem with a minority of players demanding something that will affect so many - just because EP3 prevents them from "winning" SWG?
Message Edited by Starstrider6 on 09-23-2005 11:55 AM
my view on epulse is this
how usefull is it in PvE vs PvP, I have seen it used in a PvE situation and all it did was pull an aggro from about 3-4 ships, didn't crack the armor, and I had to chase them down to keep them from killing my friend.
the argument of how freelancers don't get a small, nimble fighter is valid, I have looked at the size of some of the freelancer ships and I think a lot of them are disproportionally huge, but for anyone who does the quest, a bel is a viable ship, that isn't so big. Although I do prefer factional ships, that's just a band-aid.
Freelance covers so many areas, there should be 3-4 times as many ships availible to freelancers as there are for Rebs and Imps. They are merchants, mercenaries, they work for crime organizations, planetary security, or cold hard credits.
If this keeps up, and ppl keep screaming louder and louder for each side, we may end up staring at a space CURB
who wants that?
FeydmanKassan wrote:
I'm just trying to point out that epulse is hardly the only issue when it comes to balance. But I don't see anyone taking up the banner for the Freelancers and saying that maybe something needs to be done to level the playing field with regards to their ships. Is that because any changes would hit a little too close to home? I don't know; but after reading this thread, I have begun to wonder. I bet if I tried to make a moral argument that Freelancers having to PvP against tiny A-wings and TIEs is cheap or unfair, that I would be flayed alive on this board. Trying to make some kind of ethical argument out of this is just good old fashioned schoolyard peer pressure at work. The cool kids don't like it and if you want to hang with them you have to play by their rules.
If you were to start a thread about how freelance ships are at a distinct, even immoral disadvantage in PVP due to their size, I'd be second in line to post, because I agree with you completely. I should probably clarify that when I used the term "moral," I don't mean that pilots who use epulse are bad and pilots who don't use epulse are good; I just mean it's a wrong ability in the context of JTL, for all the reasons other posters here have elaborated on. So the argument that it's in game, thus it's been deemed fair game by the devs doesn't mean much. Because, solely in my own judgment, it shouldn't be. Not as it currently exists, anyway.
Your post and a couple others deserve a lot more discussion, but I really have to run right now. I'll try to get back on this later today.
Drum roll please.
Captain Obvious says:
Take out EP3 damage in PvP or implement a short warning.
Increase the mass on the Kihraxz to 65k.
Two birds, one stone.
Is it perfect? Of course not. Better than argueing about it until next September.
-Maudee
And don't fret Starstrider6, the EP3 change won't affect PvE. So quit whining already.
Maudee wrote:
Drum roll please.
Captain Obvious says:
Take out EP3 damage in PvP or implement a short warning.
Increase the mass on the Kihraxz to 65k.
Two birds, one stone.
Is it perfect? Of course not. Better than argueing about it until next September.
-Maudee
And don't fret Starstrider6, the EP3 change won't affect PvE. So quit whining already.
Uh, I think you're a little late to the party. 
We have come full circle back to constructive discourse on the subject. Read Leaph's post. His suggested fix is the best idea for epulse I've read.
And it only took 1 week and 7 pages! Woot!
Take that Jedi forum!
The morality thing is pointless. People are going to use what is in the game and say "don't hate the player hate the game". Which to a point is true. But one thing I am very affraid of, as a long time smuggler, is asking/beging the devs for change. Smugglers begged for a change for 2 years...and boy did we get one. JTL has it's faws but it is far better put together than the ground game. Plus the pilot community is full of folks I wouldn't mind having a pint with and talking about past dogfights IRL.
People hate EP3, they hate the RGI, but to be honest I think we should just suck it up before the devs CURB us.
As for the warning alarm for an e-pulse charge I think that's a great idea. It would give the potential Epulsee a few seconds to hit the boosters and get out of range....at which point would require the Epulser to have some skill to catch up with the Epulsee. I also saw that someone said that EP3 should work more like an EMP. Very true. Rather than have it destroy targets it only disables.
So you hit Epulse and zap....ALL of your systems go down. engine included. This would also happen to any enemy ships in your 300m area of effect. So who wins that fight? Whoever has the highest recharge rates. As a freelancer..if you know your cap and shields are slooooow to recharge would you be as quick to use Epulse? I know I wouldn't. So it woudn't be an "I win" button but it might give that freeance pilot some extra time to make the jump to lightspeed and get the hell out of dodge. Lock in your jump coordinates, hit EP3, cross fingers, hope for best. "The best way to win a fight is being able to get away from one" -Tallon Karrde
A ship travelling 1000 speed would take 3 seconds to clear 300 meters. So an Epulser basically activates epulse and chases a target ship until the time limit it up. If the target ship chooses to remain and fight, it dies. If it chooses to run, it will only survive it it's speed is 1000 more then the target ship. Otherwise it dies.
A modification on how damage is applied would be a more practical solution. As I stated before, damage to both front and rear shields/armour would accomplish this. Thus making it possible for a ship that is hit by Epulse 3 to survive.