Pilot Archive
Thread: Why doesn't space-PvP have damage mitigation?
xTekx wrote:
Ibixat wrote:
xTekx wrote:
work? they dont' know what that means? they think they get whatever they want when they want it if they cry enough? oh wait, that's the jedi forum.. sorryMessage Edited by xTekx on 07-09-200505:50 PM
Keep your anti-jedi sentiment where it belongs, in your withered little hateful heart. Them being a jedi and you being a bounty hunter has nothing to do with the issue. You must feel big and cool bashing on him being a jedi because you're a big bad BH but it has NO place at all in a discussion about space PVP. So go crawl back under a rock in the BH forums if you want to moan about jedi some more, it has no place here. And just in case your deluded little mind needs a refresher, even those who 'exploited' the respec system for jedi (and jedi were not the ONLY ones who exploited it, many a crafter/ranger turned MBH arose from the respec system) had to "work" as hard or harder than any ohter profession to do it. And I won't even presume to know how hard you 'worked' at getting your professions, since that would make me more like you.
I only have BH to supplement my Smuggler. I don't hunt Jedi. How's that sound? Different eh? You assume just because I have BH that I HAVE to hunt jedi so I HAVE TO be anti-jedi. But that's not hte case. I'm anti-jedi for other reasons. I respec'd to BH, yes. But not so I could hunt Jedi. It just happens to be a great template that suits me well. I have 3 base busting professions in 1 since I also have commando. Before the CU hit I was a Smuggler/Pistoleer/TKM. Also a Smuggler/Pist/part Fencer. And I worked VERY DAMM hard to get to those 3 proffs. I don't go grind just so I can have such and such. I play the game and when I get there I get there. But I have my reasons to hate Jedi. And I don't visit the BH forum. Nor the Jedi forum.However, I said that because that is the mentality that seems to be portraited by Jedi these days. Look at all the fixes/publishes/dev attention the Jedi get. So get your facts straight before bashing me. Yes there are good jedi out there. And there are jedi I respect. But those are all pre-pub 9 jedi. Not these "got it easy" jedi.I will however try not to "bash" jedi on the pilot boards, even though I don't think it was a bash, just a general view held by a lot of people. It has no place on the pilot boards.But let me ask you a question... Are you a jedi?
Why yes, I am, I unlocked april 26th 2004. Back when we had a cool creation system, skill loss (I was on break during permadeath time frame) saber tef and all the goodies. You didn't work for BH skill mods yet you lay claim to them as if you earned them even after admitting respeccing to them, and commando appears to be a respec as well, so your "base buster" is not something you earned, it's something you respecced to, but you "have reasons for hating jedi" Well I have reasons to hate respec'ers who took base killing profs. So we can call it even. As far as not hunting Jedi, big deal, your open disdain for someone you never met shows me enough of your character. Seriously, for someone who has had "everything handed to him" on the ground you sure seem to have some saber envy.
Our server is trying to organize a large Space PvP event, however a lot argue that it won't be as fun as it could be simply because of the 1-2-3 hit kill's that exist when another player fights another player in Space. I came up with the idea that coordinating with a CSR or developer to set 75% dmg mitigation to try and make the fights last longer as a temporary solution...
But, I'm here to ask TomoRainer if he could propose to the developers taht this change stays permanent, or at the very least, in Deep Space only. Personally, I believe it would make Space PvP much more fun and strategic. As it is now, everyone goes for the fastest ship possible because if you can evade one or two hits and get behind your target (very easy to do with the JSF and A-Wing), you are guaranteed to win --- yet they totally disregard weapon dmg, shield strength (a level 10 shield is as effective as a level 7 unfortunately) and all other level 10 components save engines.
With this change in place, we might see the emergence of the slow but very powerful TIE-Oppressors, B-Wings and dare I say it, POB Ships in large scale PvP in DS.
Please enlighten me on any flaws you see in this proposal because I've failed to evaluate any.
Test your theory before you propose it as an actual serious change.
Craftsome L3 guns, enough to loadout whatever ship you like, and a your test subject's JSF.
Each of you may run whatever Overloads you wish, including the bugged WO3 for all I care.
Make it clear the duel is to be as realistic as possible, each of you working as hard to dodge, shoot, shunt, anything you can to survive.
Unless you are god's gift to piloting, darn lucky, or the guy in the JSF falls asleep, I doubt you will ever manage to defeat him.
This is why there isn't blanket 75% damage reduction. Thank the gods.
"--Michael Stackpole, RS IRC
psikobunny wrote:
Test your theory before you propose it as an actual serious change.
Craft some L3 guns, enough to loadout whatever ship you like, and a your test subject's JSF.
Each of you may run whatever Overloads you wish, including the bugged WO3 for all I care.
Make it clear the duel is to be as realistic as possible, each of you working as hard to dodge, shoot, shunt, anything you can to survive.
Unless you are god's gift to piloting, darn lucky, or the guy in the JSF falls asleep, I doubt you will ever manage to defeat him.
This is why there isn't blanket 75% damage reduction. Thank the gods.
But that's not how Space PvP works. You both don't agree to duel in space, you catch someone off guard (often times from behind) and you blow them away before they can react. If you honestly think that 75% is too extreme, then why not 50% although I do think that 50 is still too little, it would make 3 shotting someone into 6 shotting. I've caught and been caught off guard many times in space and trust me, no matter what the pilot's skill is, you are never going to be able to survive a suprise attack and that's what space is, suprise.
wasj2004 wrote:
Lowering the dammage % might work for a temporary solution to make a PVP event last a little longer. But for a permament fix they need to get a little more detailed. Small fighters should go down in 2 to 3 hits. As small as they are, all you have to do is spin and fly iradicly when being fired at and they become very hard to hit. Now the heavy fighters like the rikhserk, krayt, Bwings and Ywings are a different story. Even with the best engine they are no match for a small fighter when it comes to manuvoring. And currently, even with the best armor and sheilds, they go down just as fast as a small fighter. They are supposed to be heavily armored attack attack ships that can take a beating. 2 to 3 hits isnt much of a beating! Higher hitpoint sheilds and armor maybee? Not sure what the best solution is, but somthing should be done.
That sounds more like a long-term fix and I do agree with it. I wouldn't mind having my JSF be fragile like the A-Wing while my TIE Oppressor can take many hits to the shield and still stay up but as it is now, you're rocked no matter what ship your in, (generally whoever's the fastest and has best roll/yaw/pitch rates will win)
Treena_Daal wrote:
If you're overt, in space, and still manage to be caught off guard, you deserve to be turned into spare parts.
Deep Space is auto-overt. With that said, most people don't even bother with DS because it isn't fun at all. THe PvP sucks, the ISD is broken -- it has 100 batteries firing all over the place lagging every person that comes near it yet it still can't hit a rebel ship. THe Rebel base is broken, it's impossible for an imperial to even get near it without getting blown to pieces so that just leaves Player vs Player. And since that blows (1-2-3 hit kills), most don't even bother in Deep Space or Kessel unless they're grinding FP (requires being overt).
I go to DS or Kessel overt often to grind FP and since PvP is a rarity, it isn't uncommon for me to be caught off guard once in awhile by another person doing the same thing or vise versa.
I agree with treena, a surprise attack shouldn't be survivable (although I have before). If all space PvP is only surprise attacks, why bother having an event as you described? You have a valid option to achieve your desire at the event, just provide everyone with weapons beforehand. No need to change the game for the sake of your event, no need to change the game at all. However, as you you didn't "see" a problem with the idea, and we're just pointing some out to you.
Instead of agreeing to simulate how your proposal would work and make PvP better, you're back here waffling on your position. As the people who feel the present system is harsh and fast, but acceptable, it's not up to us to provide evidence. It's up to you. Go back, run tests, think it through more. Just because you're using a /duel as a test, doesnt invalidate the test, go simulate a surprise attack.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it's a jedi that is the latest person to come out and push for this. But that's beside the point here. But seems like people want to resusitate the dead horse.
Damage reduction will not work period! You put in a damage reduction and you can effectively kiss PvP good bye as it will be just like the ground game. Biggest guns, biggest armor, biggest shield, engine wont' matter that much but will still need to be some what good. The people with those things will be the ones who win EVERY time. Right now it takes SKILL to win consistently in this game. If you implement a damage reduction you take the "skill" part out of it and put into equipment. Anyone remember the CM/Rifleman running around back in the day? Remember the mind poisons they threw? The person didn't beat you, the poison beat you. That's what it will turn into if a damage reduction is implemented.
If a damage reduction is put in people in Awings, JSF, Scyks, grevious's, and other small profile ships like the TI won't die either. Those ships are so hard to hit to begin with that you put in a good flyer who knows how to dodge and well, you might as well just hyper out because no one will win that battle.
Example: Awing vs JSF both with Lvl 7 guns.... Awing scores a hit on a JSF, maybe a 1/3 of his shields go down at most! Bam Shield shunt for hte win. Back to square one. Rinse and repeat. No one will ever win. Right now if I hit a JSF with the guns on my awing/heavy Z 3/4 of their shields are gone. Not a 1 hit kill. But I STILL have to score my second hit in order to win. And I still have to avoid being hit. Sounds to me like PvP is alright. (Except for that godly JSF lol)
Right now the people i've been facing in space about 75% of them have been in JSF/Grev ships. If i'm in my awing or heavy Z it already takes around 3 hits to kill them since I only have one gun. My xwing, well, if I get a good solid hit then they're space dust. And it takes them the same amount of hits to bring me down.
Missles can do the same, but if you're not packing CM's well then that's your fault.
And like people have said. If you're caught off guard while in DS or Overt, then there is NO ONE to blame but yourself. You should be reading your radar, hitting z key, and pretty much be EXPECTING someone to come along to kill you.
Here's some links that you should read over on the debates we've had on this already.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=lightspeed&message.id=177682#M177682
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pilot&message.id=55330&view=by_date_ascending&page=1
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=lightspeed&message.id=178475&view=by_date_ascending&page=1
I know there were a couple more, but couldn't find them. But this should suffice. Enjoy.
Message Edited by xTekx on 07-09-2005 09:52 AM