Pilot Archive

Thread: Speed vs. YPR

LeaphChausew
Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:02 pm
#1
The hit box on the RG TIE so is a factor. A ship shouldn't be so hard to hit that only missiles will kill it. Hitbox should be more or less same size as the ship it's on, not a micro fraction of it

Attacca
Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:26 am
#2


I asked the question, which would be better - a high speed engine or a low speed engine with the same YPR. The thinking is that:


- All ships have a sweet spot where they turn the best.

- To make a tight turn, you have to reduce speed. To test this, go drive your car at 60 miles per hour, then make a 90 degree turn. Not only are you battling inertia, but for every second you have to consider not only are you turning tightly, but you're still moving forward. More on this in a second.

- Common wisdom seems to be that in a dogfight whoever can turn the fastest wins.

- Therefor, with the same PYR, a slower engine would allow for a tighter turn, since the ship wouldn't move forward quite as far. Essentially creating a space turret, which might be brutal in PvP.


First, a bit of elaboration on point #3. This is hard to do without pictures, but regarding the other thread on speed that's on this page now, I think it's important that we cover some basic flight physics. Go easy on me if I goof this up, it'd be easier with pictures and I'm tired right now.


- Picture a grid. For every square you move forward, you turn right one square. So engine speed 1, turning 1. You can draw this out and get a very tight circle.

- Increase speed to 2. For every 2 squares you move forward, you turn right 1 square. The circle becomes wider.

- Increase turning to 2. For every 2 squares you move forward, you turn right 2 squares. Interesting, isn't it.

Now, assuming I have that out right - a faster ship should make a much wider arc, because of the forward vector. To fly in the chassis sweet spot would mean flying at a higher speed on faster engines, so you wouldn't turn as tight.


The good stuff:


I thought this was untestable, because who's going to waste a perfectly good RE job on low speed, considering how rare engines are?


Skimming the market, I found a level 6 RE - PYR was high 60's, speed was 62. Who the fool was who REd that....we won't say. But the engine was similar to one of my own level 6s, save for the speed. Finally, an engine worthy of testing!


I took my engine out to the Bloodfin sunday night PvP, and tried them both out in my TIE Interceptor. What happened actually surprised me.


1. As near as I can tell, the slower engine did allow me to turn tighter. Not a scientific test I realize, but I didn't have any trouble keeping an A-Wing with a level 10 engine (Ayanami, you're nuts!) in view. Kinda cool.

2. The reduction in speed was deadly in PvP. Slide was nearly impossible, and although the other ships were scribing larger arcs in space, they had a much easier time coming back to bear on me, since I wasn't moving as quickly. Without the added benefit of slide I couldn't move as fast to keep them targeted, so I had to keep my ship angled towards them. Picture them making big circles while I made short arcs towards them - I was too easy of a target.

3. When most people fight Tier 5 A-Wings I think the common mistake is going to slow - you end up following thier arc instead of getting behind them, this is essentially what happened to me.


Conclusion:


Without making a more accurate test, I believe I was correct on ship handling. However, in the dynamics of space PvP, the lack of speed left me as a sitting duck, and dramatically changed the nature of dogfighting. The faster engines led to better tactics.


Hope all that made sense.





~ Captain Nesanya / Murphey ~
Rebel Alliance A-Wing Pilot
...has mastered the Pilot profession
Are you a pilot and not using Droid Commands?

Barb-Wire
Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:21 am
#3
its common sense from the begining of flight and is just as true in sims on the puter as it is in real flight speed=life.


the person with the biggest speed advantage dictates the terms of the fight.



Created Account July 2003 - Canceled account Nov 2005. The NGE made me do it.
Barb Wire
Former Dark Force Wielder
Ex-Imperial Navy
Washell
Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:27 am
#4

Actually, it's the person with the most energy that dictates the fight, energy being both altitude and speed.



LeaphChausew
Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:30 am
#5




Washell wrote:

Actually, it's the person with the most energy that dictates the fight, energy being both altitude and speed.







True but I think it isn't that black and white...in fact time to start another thread.


-Leaph.


P.S Washell, thanks for the inspiration



Attacca
Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:37 am
#6




Barb-Wire wrote:

its common sense from the begining of flight and is just as true in sims on the puter as it is in real flight speed=life.


the person with the biggest speed advantage dictates the terms of the fight.




Can't say it's common sense, that's a gross oversimplification of what I was trying to get at. And I can point you to several threads that demonstrate a misunderstanding of these facts.


It is worth adding that in addition to JTL not following true physics (which is important to understand when flying), space is radically different from atmospheric flight, especially in JTL. Pure speed won't save you, and altitude is nearly meaningless since yousuffer no deceleration during approach from any direction, nor doyou lose energy in a turn.


I think that if I had a good supply of engines to RE and was more uniform in my testing, a balance point would be found for speed.





~ Captain Nesanya / Murphey ~
Rebel Alliance A-Wing Pilot
...has mastered the Pilot profession
Are you a pilot and not using Droid Commands?

JanuHull
Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:12 am
#7

As far as I've seen, I'd say a sweet spot much slower than 850-900 is the cut off point in PvP. Yanus might kick my shins, because I know full well his Nova Courier is much lower than that, but at the same time, he's got turret gunners, who aren't depending on himto line up their shots,and solid defensesmaking up for that. But in fighters, you turn tight as close to the 1000 speed mark as you can, or you're going to have a VERY long day. The issue is that after a certain point, you can spin on a dime, but a faster ship with equal maneuveringcan line up his shots at will on you from a blind side.


On the flip side, having my A-Wing's sweet spot at about 1080 or so has actually helped me against faster fighters, because beyond a certain speed, things are blurring by so quickly, that anything other than random shots hoping for a score is nearly impossible.





Janu Hull
CertifiedjWing Nut
CFA
"This is not the ground game, please see a therapist for your outrage."

LeaphChausew
Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:28 am
#8

The best that speed will give you in JTLS is..in a turning fight, your lead indicator..from your opponents perspective will be a lot further ahead of your ship so you're making them turn steeper so they can converge on your vector.


I just wrote a load of stuff. But..I found myself not being able to settle on anything apart from those first two lines ^. In addition though I say...aim for as high a speed as possible and aim for a high a r,p,y as possible. You don't have to sacrifice one or the other as the crafted engnes are a lot harder to get EO4 working on. A good loot engine with EO4 is comparible to a crafted engine speed wise using EO3 and a lot more manouverable to boot too. All you have to be careful of is overcompensating and sometime smanouvering 'into' your opponents line of fire. What you want to be doing, since in pvp most of the tim eyou'll both be effectively 'facing' each other is to hit them from a tangent where you can hit them, but they can't get you. React and reflect them. You find them getting a clear shot on you...change trajectory...even if another second or two and you'll have a shot on them. In these cases [the most common time I'll die actually ] even though I have a shot on them...it happens that they had a better shot on me..and reacted to it sooner . Rapax was oh so very right...each pvp encounter is like a puzzle.


Time to pull out a jigsaw puzzle...

Message Edited by LeaphChausew on 08-15-2005 10:45 AM

Alyxian
Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:13 am
#9

While I appreciate the facts laid out here, the 60 speed cert 6 was hardly a very realistic comparision.


I have several engines right now, my best PvP engine has only 82 speed. Under even EO3 it lets me keep up to whatever I need, and since YPR is 74+ I can turn really nice and tight.


It is all about balance and how you fly, I don't think you will ever come up with a "best" that satisfies everyone.





Alyxian Gorgaan
"Just an honest Trader"
Will Fly for Booze
Ships, Paint, Missiles, Droids, and More!
Shop located in Tal Kyrte on Lok, in the Mall
StarSider
JanuHull
Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:32 am
#10




Alyxian wrote:

While I appreciate the facts laid out here, the 60 speed cert 6 was hardly a very realistic comparision.


I have several engines right now, my best PvP engine has only 82 speed. Under even EO3 it lets me keep up to whatever I need, and since YPR is 74+ I can turn really nice and tight.


It is all about balance and how you fly, I don't think you will ever come up with a "best" that satisfies everyone.






Of course not, "best" is a VERY relative term in piloting since its not all loot and numbercrunch. Its one of the things I love about it, because there are no absolutes. Every suggestion posted on this board, even contradictory posts, can be assumed to have the prefix "In my experience" and still be absolutely correct.



Janu Hull
CertifiedjWing Nut
CFA
"This is not the ground game, please see a therapist for your outrage."

Attacca
Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:38 am
#11
You're missing the point of the post, Alyxian - the 62 speed engine was the perfect test item. Go back and look at what I was testing, read the whole post and that other thread. It isn't just a matter of turning tight or flying fast, I wanted to see how a chassis responded to different combinations of statistics, especially in light of other purely speculative threads floating around.





~ Captain Nesanya / Murphey ~
Rebel Alliance A-Wing Pilot
...has mastered the Pilot profession
Are you a pilot and not using Droid Commands?

LeaphChausew
Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:09 pm
#12




Attacca wrote:

Nope, Alyxian.


I was actually curious to see what an A-Wing pilot like yourself would think.







Oh cool. Well I added some more to my above post but yeh, the sweet spot thing is one of the A-wings best friends and worse enemies. A-wings aren't difficult in pve for just lack of firepower...Hell in pve, I stop handling...full stop at anything below 700 and thats faster than most npcs and too shallow a turning circle in an A-wing to even outmanouver them so the only tactic is..kill them before I overshoot them or fly at a tangentfaster in velocity but further in distance to them so I maintainmy relative position to them.


As for pvp..well it varies. The r,p,y acceleration on an A-wing are good..but not the best. I like this because its responcive enough but not overly so. It makes the ship easier to control and I know exactly where its going to let me down or give me an edge. Also with the sweet spot...well It's a strange ship. With a lvl 8 engine I'm finding I can hit my AoAlimit at 65% throttle at times and hit it too at 80%, 90% and even 100% if I really yank it about a lot. However, with my pre-nerf lvl 6, I find it's much more limited even though the pre-nerf gives about the same speed. With the pre-nerf I find it handles well at 85%-90% speed and at top speed, manouvering is 'ok' but noticeably worse.


The thing I do love about the ship though with it's definite sweetspots is I can preset different throttle settings at these points so if I throw myself into a loop then hit the preset...then as I start to pull over my own axis I hit full throttle..or a higher throttle setting, the actual dislacement of the turn [i.e how much space the ship moves while it rotates] is negligable. Testing it alongside a waypoint I made and seeing how tight I can turn around the thin tube of light, my nosetip [well more like a nose-edge with an A-wing] keeps contact with that pinpoint for the most part.


JanuHull
Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:10 pm
#13




LeaphChausew wrote:






Attacca wrote:




LeaphChausew wrote:

Attacca is wrong in saying that as far as it is an absolute..but if it works for him then I can dispute that about as much as he can say I don't love A-wings




I never said it was absolute! Grrr, this guy is slaughtering my point completely.





I am?

Hang on a moment. You tested lvl 6 engine against an A-wing with..a lvl 10 ENGINE?! How the hell did they get a lvl 10 engine in an A-wing and have room for the pilot? Were they using paper shields and a lvl 4 gun? o.o


Ok..I calmed down now. I see what you mean.
So yeh each chassis has sweet spots etc..different engine's top speeds make it so the sweet spots will be at the different speeds depending on engine so for example..say as a general idea the A-wing's sweet spot is at 90% throttle [well it is more varied than that but as a rough idea]and say I got 1000 as my top speed..then 900 would be the speed I turn best at. So if I got an engine with 1500 as my top speed..then 1350 would be my optimum turning speed. Ahh man..sorry I admit I totally missed the point on this one.

As for my view on it..well It depends on who or what I'm flying against.

Message Edited by LeaphChausew on 08-15-2005 12:56 PM



Probably a level 10 engine, level 1 reactor, level 2 capacitor, level 3 shield, pre-nerf level 1 DI, and a level 5-6 gun



Janu Hull
CertifiedjWing Nut
CFA
"This is not the ground game, please see a therapist for your outrage."

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