Pilot Archive
Thread: Joysticks Vs Mouse
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Rowgue
Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:59 pm
#1
I have seen many posts where people are asking whether to use a joystick or the mouse for piloting your ship in JTL, so I thought I would throw my experience out there.
I am a veteran of just about every flight sim that has come out since about 1985, so I have a great setup with the joystick, seperate throttle control, and rudder pedals. This setup is smooth as silk inflight sims, and I would never attempt to use anything else. This whole deal cost me about $250 to put together.
I was excited when JTL was announced because it was bringing together two of my favorite types of gaming. When I first started piloting I just used my trackball and my ship was all over the place and I couldn't hit anything. I noticed that the game supported joysticks so I set to getting my rig set up and all of the buttons mapped out. I took it out for a test run without taking a mission, and it was a little better than when I was using the trackball.
The problem though is that high end joysticks are designed for flight sims that mimic real life physics. JTL is not a flight sim and has no semblance of physics. After a few hours of flight time I grew frustrated with trying to set my throttle to the optimal turning speed with the throttle handle. I found it was much easier using the keyboard, as you can just throttle back a set amount of notches and you always know exactly where to set it in a split second. It also doesn't feel right, it is hugely bulky and no matter how many buttons you have on yours there are never enough for everything, so you end up having to go back and forth between the joystick and keyboard.
After a significant amount of time experimenting with dialing in the sensitivity and dead zone values I could not find a combinatioin of settings that gave me a level of control that I was happy with. I then changed back to my trackball and went out on a test run to try to dial in those settings a little better. It took me about 45 minutes to get everythign dialed in just the way I wanted it, but I quickly found that the trackball gave me far better accuracy, and since the trackball can sit on my desk next to my keyboard going to the keyboard for keys while keeping my targeting hand on the trackball was much easier than with the joystick.
I have not experimented with any of the lower end arcadey style joysticks as I am unwilling to buy something that I will only use for one game. They may be more suited for this type of application. In my experienct though I find the performance to be far better for me using the trackball (once I got the settings dialed in) than when I was using the joystick.
These are just one mans experiences, but I would suggest to anyone wondering if they should buy a joystick to either just stick with the mouse and spend the time to get your settings dialed in, or get one of the lower end model joysticks for around $30-$60 and see how that works for you.
Celera
Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:21 pm
#3
Your experience is interesting, thank you for posting it.
I've recently switched from an older Logitech Wingman Force to the Saitek X-52 and also find that there is something definitely missing from the somewhat more advanced setup. While it's great (and immersive) in FS2004, I find myself struggling to achieve the same level of precise control I feel I had using the old Wingman.
I think the lighter touch (caused by the lack of force feedback?) of the Saitek makes me "hunt and float" a bit more. The tendency seems to be to overshoot quite a bit and have trouble getting the course corrected properly after having done so. It's taking quite a bit of time to get adjusted to it, and to pin down the settings properly. I won't switch back, out of laziness more than anything else, but I agree that the more advanced sticks may not be tailored for this game.
As for the mouse, it just isn't for me I'm afraid.
I've recently switched from an older Logitech Wingman Force to the Saitek X-52 and also find that there is something definitely missing from the somewhat more advanced setup. While it's great (and immersive) in FS2004, I find myself struggling to achieve the same level of precise control I feel I had using the old Wingman.
I think the lighter touch (caused by the lack of force feedback?) of the Saitek makes me "hunt and float" a bit more. The tendency seems to be to overshoot quite a bit and have trouble getting the course corrected properly after having done so. It's taking quite a bit of time to get adjusted to it, and to pin down the settings properly. I won't switch back, out of laziness more than anything else, but I agree that the more advanced sticks may not be tailored for this game.
As for the mouse, it just isn't for me I'm afraid.
Ducimus
Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:44 pm
#4
Ive been using keyboard/joystick from the get go.
Started with an older Thrustmaster but that thing killed my arm, its a realy stiff and rugged joystick. So i went out and bought a logitech 11 button joystick (only use the 5 buttons on the stick itself).
At any rate, i keep my right hand on the joystick, and my left hand on the keybard.
W = accel
S = decl
A = roll left
D = roll right
Combine that with the joystick and i have total control, almost like having a FCS.
As joystick handling goes, what ive discovered is a hyper sensitivy in fast ships. As a privateer or rebel pilot, i didnt have a problem with the joystick skipping frames of motion on me. In a fast moving Tie, its a real problem. A slght movement which may have put me in a proper lead or pure pusuit in the past; now bumbs my ship to the point of overshooting my target. If there was a flight path ladder, imagine going from a 10 degree angle, bump the stick and find yourself at an instant 40 degree angle on the plane. so many times i find myself being alot less accurate then i previously was.
Started with an older Thrustmaster but that thing killed my arm, its a realy stiff and rugged joystick. So i went out and bought a logitech 11 button joystick (only use the 5 buttons on the stick itself).
At any rate, i keep my right hand on the joystick, and my left hand on the keybard.
W = accel
S = decl
A = roll left
D = roll right
Combine that with the joystick and i have total control, almost like having a FCS.
As joystick handling goes, what ive discovered is a hyper sensitivy in fast ships. As a privateer or rebel pilot, i didnt have a problem with the joystick skipping frames of motion on me. In a fast moving Tie, its a real problem. A slght movement which may have put me in a proper lead or pure pusuit in the past; now bumbs my ship to the point of overshooting my target. If there was a flight path ladder, imagine going from a 10 degree angle, bump the stick and find yourself at an instant 40 degree angle on the plane. so many times i find myself being alot less accurate then i previously was.
Gruug
Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:47 pm
#5
Interesting posts. I have played flight sims all the way back to the first SubLogic Flight Simulator on the Apple II. I currently play FS2004, IL-2, Pacific Fighters and other flight sims. I have played Tie Fighter, X-wing vs Tie, and so on. In all but the first mentioned I have used a joystick. I would not think of using anything else. I have used a variety of joysticks from the acardie to the ultra realistic Thrustmaster HOTAS combo. What I have found is that the arcade type joysticks are too sensitive while the ultra realistic types are almostover complicatedfor simpler games. I have found that the current joystick that I own is somewhere in the middle and far more practical. Currently, I own a Saitek X45 and I love it. This is not a promotion or an endorsement of the X45 just my humble opinion based upon past experience.
I should note that I played Freelancer which is totally mouse controlled and was pretty good at it. BUT, I hated the game because themouse does not feel likea flying control to me. I tried a mouse in JTL during beta and again after the live launch just to test it out. I still hate it. In JTL I just don't feel it gives you the control that a joystick can. There is nothing in JTL as satisfying as rolling in behind a bandit and throttling in to match his speed and blasting up his tail pipe till he blows to bits! I just can't do that with a mouse...sorry.
Message Edited by Gruug on 01-18-2005 07:49 PM
GunFu
Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:26 pm
#6
I could not find the fun in using the mouse, yes at first the joystick was a pain. Now, Its great and I feel more in control and get into the fight more.
Aalob Alarios
Rowgue
Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:04 pm
#7
I have to agree with you that the joystick does add a significant fun factor to the experience. The thing for me though, isthis game seems to play more like a first person shooter with a throttle rather than a flight sim. I would rather play with the joystick as that is what I'm used to from all the flight sims I have played over the years. I just find the level of control to be severely lacking with my current set up. I may end up going to pick up one of those Saitek's and give that a shot, it seems they are very popular, there may be something to that. As far as I'm concerned though, if I'm really in a fight I want to win I'm stickin with the trackball. I can shoot a hair off a gnat with that thing, and I've had many a player using joysticks (I don't know what kind) ask me how the hell I can track those little A wings so well
KaylBreinhar
Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:54 am
#8
I have a Sidewinder FF2 Pro and a TM Cougar HOTAS.
I use the mouse in JTL. The feel using a joystick is beyond horrible, and with force feedback, doubly so.
I could get the HOTAS feel back with a mouse by plugging in a Nostromo Speedpad and using it in lieu of the keyboard. Instant throttle wheel, map the directional pad to rear look and miscellaneous...and the keys to various functions.
I use the mouse in JTL. The feel using a joystick is beyond horrible, and with force feedback, doubly so.
I could get the HOTAS feel back with a mouse by plugging in a Nostromo Speedpad and using it in lieu of the keyboard. Instant throttle wheel, map the directional pad to rear look and miscellaneous...and the keys to various functions.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 01-19-2005 05:55 AM
GunFu
Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:49 am
#9
Although my accuracy is very bad it seems. I might give the mouse a try today, but the first time I tried it, it was very different and almost annoying.
GregorianPipes
Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:52 am
#10
I use a $30 Logitech ATK3 joystick, and it works just fine for JTL. Enough buttons so that I rarely touch the keyboard during flight. It also has a z-axis throttle slider that works SO much better than W and S for speed control.
Shrendyc
Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:20 am
#11
I use a hybrid - use the mouse for flight control and weapons shooting, and have a throttle control from the joystick. Seems to work well for me so far. I'd use the joystick but its really rugged to use - keep overshooting things and just can't get the precision I want for dogfighting.
Eulbobo
Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:42 am
#12
Shrendyc wrote:I use a hybrid - use the mouse for flight control and weapons shooting, and have a throttle control from the joystick.
I wish i had this.... And coolie hat from joystick to turn my head inside cockpit to see what's going to hit me ^^
Arryth
Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:03 am
#13
I use the Logitech Extreme 3D pro. Its "ok". I find I have to keep recalabrateing it... Its becomeing annoying.. Im constantly getting drifting which im unsure how to correct with out loseig speed and accuracy.
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