Pikeman Archive

That's cool Ark but please remember a big draw for the pikeman community is we are, for the most part, devoid of trolls.

Please don't ruin this by your actions simply because you are "bored"

Well ARK since your lightning fast why don't you come back to your thread still on the TKA forums and explain your flawed math to the rest of us.Your numbers are way off and you know it, yet you refuse to even talk about why they are and instead just keep posting the same flawed numbers.

Dude, i have to work SOME of the time, hold on.

And all though yes, they were flawed, i SAID so in the original post. and it was al just to show the relation between the different melees.

I think the numbers were pretty accurate....

so much...that i will....yip...post them ..again....

Effects of mitigation.....

Vibro Knuckler- 50-150; +250 unarmed damage = 300-400 damage at a speed of 2.0
Once mitigatedit is 300-340 at a speed of 2.0. For a loss of 60 Max damage.

Gerdaffi Baton- 100-350 at a speed of 3.0( i think could be worng, it is high though)
Once mitigated it is 100-200 @ 3.0 for a los of 150 Max damage

Power Hammer- 180-600 @ 5.5
once mitigated it is 180-348 @ 5.0 for a loss of 252 Max damage

Long Vibro Axe- 150-500 @ 4.5
once mitigated it is 150-290 @ 4.5 for a loss of 210 Max Damage

And becouse i think it is SOOOO funny....
here is a "legendary Lance" i saw once

Legendary Lance- 30-1000 @ 1.9
Once Mitigated 30-418 @ 1.9 for a loss of 582 Max Damage...that sucks.......

Argue with those numbers........

Come on back over to TKA and back up your numbers their wrong and you know it. You cant just make up numbers and fail to take into account all the variables that can change the outcome of your data.Your doing primitive math that doesn't produce accurate numbers

What numbers are you talking about? How the melee professions are affected by mitigation? Even the TKA correspondent showed that TKA is the least affected of any class by mitigation.

antares
master pikeman

Lol no were not just talking about mitigation, and no one is claiming that TKA's are less affected by mitigation then other classes.Ark's earlier posts were about every aspect of combat DPS, defenses, mitigation etc.Yet he refuses to add in any the variables that affect their outcome like bleeds and higher AP upping the DPS of the other mellee professions vs TKA.

Message Edited by vaderbaiter on 03-04-2004 03:29 PM

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vaderbaiter wrote:
Lol no were not just talking about mitigation, and no one is claiming that TKA's are less affected by mitigation then other classes.Ark's earlier posts were about every aspect of combat DPS, defenses, mitigation etc.Yet he refuses to add in any the variables that affect their outcome like bleeds and higher AP upping the DPS of the other mellee professions vs TKA.

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I and other people have shown in prior posts that TKA have much better DPS than any other melee class, only when fighting the medium/heavy armor targets do swordsmen and pikemen begin to pull ahead. Bleeds should not be much of a factor now, they used to be a good argument, but now bleeds are near laughable in effectiveness.

Here is my post I made comparing normalized DPS pikeman vs. TKA. You can plainly see that pikemen are out-dps'ed in every category of armor by TKAs, even AR3. Only in Max hits do we come out on top, only AR2 & AR3. We have kinetic and electricity damage (plus energy maybe, but no one uses the energy lance in pvp), both of which are resisted by composite armor, so the "TKA has kinetic only" argument doesn't fly around here. Bleeds used to be a weakness for TKA, but they aren't really anymore after bleeds were changed.

Also, here are the melee stats so you can see the defense differences yourself.

antares
master pikeman

Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 03-04-2004 03:35 PM

Didn't read the link you posted to but could you explain this to me, first you say:

I and other people have shown in prior posts that TKA have much better DPS than any other melee class, only when fighting the medium/heavy armor targets do swordsmen and pikemen begin to pull ahead.

But then you say

You can plainly see that pikemen are out-dps'ed in every category of armor by TKAs, even AR3

You contradict yourself here, first you said that sword and pike pull ahead in DPS against medium/heavy armor opponents then you claim the opposite paragraph down.

And imagine that, one class being better against unarmored/light armored opponets and another class being better suited against medium/heavy armor opponents that almost sounds like balance.........

Bleeds should not be much of a factor now, they used to be a good argument, but now bleeds are near laughable in effectiveness.

Bleeds still count towards DPS plain and simple, the only way they wouldn't is if they did zero damage.Also pikeman can get some weapons with wicked DOTS on them that are passive you don't even need to use a special to inflict them

Here is my post I made comparing normalized DPS pikeman vs. TKA. You can plainly see that pikemen are out-dps'ed in every category of armor by TKAs, even AR3. Only in Max hits do we come out on top, only AR2 & AR3. We have kinetic and electricity damage (plus energy maybe, but no one uses the energy lance in pvp), both of which are resisted by composite armor, so the "TKA has kinetic only" argument doesn't fly around here.

Theirs your problem i didn't even bother reading the link because you state "normalized DPS" if your not taking into account all the variables that will alter the final outcome of the data then the data is worthless.And do you seriously think that TKA's having only 1 damage type is not less effective then you guys having 3 types of damage?If you think all 3 types of damage is worthless in PVP then why not ask to have one damage type changed to something less resisted?TKA's don't have that luxury we were shot down by the devs on getting an additional damage type, we're limited to just one type and it looks like that won't be changing.And against composite the only combat proff's with an adavtage are the few with stun weapons.

Bleeds used to be a weakness for TKA, but they aren't really anymore after bleeds were changed.

Bleeds are still a weaknes for TKA as we don't have one.

Also, here are the melee stats so you can see the defense differences yourself

Cool Ark could probably use that so he doesn't have to guess at the numbers anymore.

Funny thing is no one ever considers the weakness's of the TKA when they are crying nerf.We deal with our weakness's, it'stime for some other proff's to do the same.

Message Edited by vaderbaiter on 03-04-2004 04:13 PM

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vaderbaiter wrote:

Didn't read the link you posted to but could you explain this to me, first you say:

I and other people have shown in prior posts that TKA have much better DPS than any other melee class, only when fighting the medium/heavy armor targets do swordsmen and pikemen begin to pull ahead.

But then you say

You can plainly see that pikemen are out-dps'ed in every category of armor by TKAs, even AR3

You contradict yourself here, first you said that sword and pike pull ahead in DPS against medium/heavy armor opponents then you claim the opposite paragraph down.

Bleeds should not be much of a factor now, they used to be a good argument, but now bleeds are near laughable in effectiveness.

Bleeds still count towards DPS plain and simple, the only way they wouldn't is if they did zero damage.Also pikeman can get some weapons with wicked DOTS on them that are passive you don't even need to use a special to inflict them

Here is my post I made comparing normalized DPS pikeman vs. TKA. You can plainly see that pikemen are out-dps'ed in every category of armor by TKAs, even AR3. Only in Max hits do we come out on top, only AR2 & AR3. We have kinetic and electricity damage (plus energy maybe, but no one uses the energy lance in pvp), both of which are resisted by composite armor, so the "TKA has kinetic only" argument doesn't fly around here.

Theirs your problem i didn't even bother reading the link because you state "normalized DPS" if your not taking into account all the variables that will alter the final outcome of the data then the data is worthless.And do you seriously think that TKA's having only 1 damage type is not less effective then you guys having 3 types of damage?If you think all 3 types of damage is worthless in PVP then why not ask to have one damage type changed to something less resisted?TKA's don't have that luxury we were shot down by the devs on getting an additional damage type, we're limited to just one type and it looks like that won't be changing.And against composite the only combat proff's with an adavtage are the few with stun weapons.

Bleeds used to be a weakness for TKA, but they aren't really anymore after bleeds were changed.

Bleeds are still a weaknes for TKA as we don't have one.

Also, here are the melee stats so you can see the defense differences yourself

Cool Ark could probably use that so he doesn't have to guess at the numbers anymore.

Funny thing is no one ever considers the weakness's of the TKA when they are crying nerf.We deal with our weakness's, it'stime for some other proff's to do the same.

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We are out-DPS'ed, but in terms of maximum hit, pikemen pull ahead from AR2 to AR3. Clear enough? You obviously do not care even if someone presents you with facts, you will not look. What's the point in discussion anything then?

I said normalized DPS because I normalized the target, no resists, no extras going on. Normalized to get a clear view.

You talk about us having 3 types of damage in pvp. Look at your composite/ubese/chitin, what are the highest resists? Kinetic and Electricity (especially on the ubiquitous composite). Those are our two damage types. We have energy available to us, but how many pikemen do you see with an energy lance? Plus, it's just AP1 and energy is commonly resisted by all armor types anyway. So yes, our damage types do not make us more effective in pvp than your one.

Our DoT weapons are special loot, not player-made and sometimes are the only reason we can kill people in PvP.

Your announcement about not even reading what you talk about wanting to see speaks volumes about you.

antares
master pikeman

As a former Master Pikeman and a Current TKA I have to say that I can as a Master TKA w/o using my VN I can take out a creature with AR1 or AR2 alot faster than I ever could using my dmg sliced LVA or VLA which has armor piercing even before the bleed nerf when a stacked bleed would be the first thing I would apply. If I use my dmg sliced VN well .... the dmg is insane that creature is gonna die and it's gonna die REAL fast!

So using my VN w/o AP and no bleed I can take out something with AR1 or AR2 faster than I could as aMaster Pikeman could using Bleeds and Armor piercing weapon ...

We are out-DPS'ed, but in terms of maximum hit, pikemen pull ahead from AR2 to AR3. Clear enough? You obviously do not care even if someone presents you with facts, you will not look. What's the point in discussion anything then?

I asked because you clearly contradicted yourself in your statements, something you could of avoided by being more specific

I said normalized DPS because I normalized the target, no resists, no extras going on. Normalized to get a clear view.

So your saying that if I click that link it will show you taking into account AP and bleeds? If so I'd be glad to take a look but if not then it's not worth my time sorry.

You talk about us having 3 types of damage in pvp. Look at your composite/ubese/chitin, what are the highest resists? Kinetic and Electricity (especially on the ubiquitous composite). Those are our two damage types. We have energy available to us, but how many pikemen do you see with an energy lance? Plus, it's just AP1 and energy is commonly resisted by all armor types anyway. So yes, our damage types do not make us more effective in pvp than your one.

So your saying that a pikeman going up against someone wearing Ubese doesn't have a greater advantage over a TKA?Last i checked my ubese protected much better against kinetic then any other damage type. And composite handcuffs alot of classes, in fact it handcuffs all of them except the few who combat proffs that have stun weapons.

Our DoT weapons are special loot, not player-made and sometimes are the only reason we can kill people in PvP.

Must be nice being able to use NPC dropped weapons, thats another limitation of TKA, their are none for us.Yet again you overlook a limitation of TKA.....Also I guess your saying your correspondent is a liar because according to him their is wicked player made pikeman weapons check out this link he made on flurry forums

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Flurry&message.id=79952

Your announcement about not even reading what you talk about wanting to see speaks volumes about you.

Like i said you said "normalized dps" i took that as pure dps not taking into account bleeds and AP, if you took them into account then i'll be glad to look.I'm not saying that when everything is taken into account that it isn't possible for TKA to still be ahead across the board.I'm saying prove it, because if the devs did re-balancing based on equations that didn't take into account those factors and variables then the TKA's will be shafted as the reductions would be to large.

Message Edited by vaderbaiter on 03-04-2004 04:31 PM

Message Edited by vaderbaiter on 03-04-2004 04:33 PM

Message Edited by vaderbaiter on 03-04-2004 04:43 PM

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vaderbaiter wrote:

Title says it all, Arkmindspear has been spamming TKA forums for a couple days now as fast as his threads are deleted he begins new ones.Do we have to start spamming your forum ark to get you to leave ours alone?

If you put half the effort into improving pikeman that you do into spamming the TKA boards then Pikemen might not be so gimped...

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hmmm, pretty mature of you to threaten these boards like that. i'm sure you'd get the results you're looking for. 2 wrongs don't make a right, remember that.

and before you get all up in arms about me protecting him: 1) no i'm not and 2) i'm a tkm as well.i just never post in those boards because its people screaming nerf tka and the tka's saying that the profession is fine and even gimped. if you guys spent half the time on anythingas you do defending your power or lack there of, you'd get a lot more done yourself. and pikemen may be gimped, but i'll smoke a tkm's arse any day of the week. you wanna come in to these peaceful forums and wreck a good thing, by all means go ahead, but you'll just give tka's a worse reputation, and probably a stiffer nerf bat swing.

Lol shutout yes you are defending him, it's ok he spams our forums with multiple threads a day but not ok for a TKA to make a single one on yours?

As for saying Pikemen are gimp, the only reason i used that expression is because that is probably the most commonly used term by the pikemen themselves to describe their proffesion.But i do find it funny how you say as a pikeman that you'll smoke a TKA any day of the week, I guess they must not be nearly as gimp as they portray themselves to be.Maybe we should be making nerf pike threads since according to you their so powerful they can smoke TKA with impunity.....