Pikeman Archive
Thread: Melee defensive calculations (Updated)
Block stops 50% of incoming damage.
Counterattack/dodge stop 100% of incoming damage.
Pikemen: 30 melee defense / 25 ranged / 26 toughness
Swordsman: 20 melee defense / 15 ranged / 43 toughness
Fencer: 74 melee defense / 69 ranged / 32 toughness
- Assume block/counterattack/dodge activate at a 50% rate for the sake of this comparison. In actuality, I haven't seen any real data showing that any of them activate more often than the other, although in practice it seems like dodge activates more often even outside CoB. For this, though, we'll assume they all activate at the same rate, say 50%. The goal is to get a ratio of defenses. Whether these secondaries activate 50% of the time or 75% or 100%, the ratio of damage taken will remain the same. Something simply has to be assumed to be a certain value to make these calculations.
- Assume the rest of the to-hit parameters are the same for each attack, i.e. posture of attacker/defender/food bonuses/weapon range mods/etc.
- Take into consideration the fact that defensive acuity may not be working at all, calculate with and without.
- Each point of melee/ranged defense amounts to a 0.5% reduction in to-hit chance, or effectively, being hit 0.5% less often.
Against melee attacks:
Swordsmen: 10% of incoming damage is avoided by melee defenses.The other 90% is reduced by 50% for counterattack.The remaining 45% hit 43 toughness, reducing it to 57% of 45%.
Swordsmen take 25.7% of the incoming damage.
Fencers: 37% of incoming damage is avoided by melee defenses. The other 63% is reduced by 50% for dodge. The remaining 31.5% hits 32 toughness, reducing it to 68% of 31.5%.
Fencers take 21.4% of the incoming damage.
Pikemen: 15% of incoming damage is avoided for melee defenses. The other 85%hitsblock 50%.Half of the amount blocked goes through, 21.25%AND the remaining 42.5% hit 26 toughness.
Pikemen take 47.2% of the incoming damage.
Against ranged attacks:
Swordsmen: 7.5% avoided for ranged defenses. The other 92.5% is reduced by 50% for counterattack.
Swordsmen take 46.3% of the incoming damage.
Fencers: 34.5% avoided for ranged defenses. The other 65.5% is reduced by 50% for dodge.
Fencers take 32.8% of the incoming damage.
Pikemen: 12.5% avoided for ranged defense. The other 87.5% is blocked. 50% of the 43.75% blocked goes through.
Pikemen take 65.6% of the incoming damage.
Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 05-04-2004 05:40 AM
Bravo antares, as always, but I somehow get the feeling that the only response this is going to get from the DEVs is :
"OMG, the TKAs get that hurt? Cripe, let's buff up their defences even more"
Then sounds he voice of the Pikemen from the bottom of the well:
"Please, someone help!"
And the DEVs righteous answer:
"Right, lets give TKAs more ranged defence than Riflemen and put their melee above the Fencers, and someone close that well top the buzzing is getting annoying."
Arhagellos wrote:
Bravo antares, as always, but I somehow get the feeling that the only response this is going to get from the DEVs is :
"OMG, the TKAs get that hurt? Cripe, let's buff up their defences even more"
Then sounds he voice of the Pikemen from the bottom of the well:
"Please, someone help!"
And the DEVs righteous answer:
"Right, lets give TKAs more ranged defence than Riflemen and put their melee above the Fencers, and someone close that well top the buzzing is getting annoying."
lmao
man, when you look at something like this you think "wow, we must be kings of damage dealing then!". Unfortunately, the damage dealing numbers probably pan out the same.
Thanks for the hard work Antares, maybe Gunman should bring something like this up in the Correspondents forum so that the devs would have a chance at seeing it.
antares_Kauri wrote:
I made this in a previous post, but I kind of like this data, so I think it deserves it's own post.
So...here's the run down, including melee/ranged defenses:
Block stop 50% of incoming damage.
Counterattack/dodge stop 100% of incoming damage.
Defensive acuity would have an equal chance to block/counterattack/dodge.
Pikemen: 30 melee defense / 25 ranged / 26 toughness
Swordsman: 20 melee defense / 15 ranged / 43 toughness
Fencer: 74 melee defense / 69 ranged / 32 toughness
TKA: 62 melee defense / 45 ranged / 57 toughness
- Assume block/counterattack/dodge activate at a 50% rate for the sake of this comparison. In actuality, I haven't seen any real data showing that any of them activate more often than the other, although in practice it seems like dodge activates more often even outside CoB. For this, though, we'll assume they all activate at the same rate, say 50%.
- Assume the rest of the to-hit parameters are the same for each attack, i.e. posture of attacker/defender/food bonuses/weapon range mods/etc.
- Assume that the 50% of the time block/counter/dodge does not activate, that melee/ranged defenses play their part.
- Take into consideration the fact that defensive acuity may not be working at all, calculate with and without.
- Each point of melee/ranged defense amounts to a 0.5% reduction in to-hit chance, or effectively, being hit 0.5% less often.
Against melee attacks:
Swordsmen: 50% of incoming damage stopped by counterattack. The other 50% is reduced by 10% for melee defenses. The remaining 40% hit 43 toughness, reducing it to 57% of 40%.
Swordsmen take 22.8% of the incoming damage.
Fencers: 50% of incoming damage stopped by dodge. The other 50% is reduced by 37% for melee defenses. The remaining 13% hit 32 toughness, reducing it to 68% of 13%.
Fencers take 8.84% of the incoming damage.
Pikemen: 50% of incoming damage hits block. The other 50% is reduced by 15% for melee defense. The remaning 50% of 50% stopped by block AND the remaining 35% hit 26 toughness.
Pikemen take 44.4% of the incoming damage.
TKA without defensive acuity: 0% hits defensive acuity. 100% is reduced by 31% for melee defense. The remaining 69% hits 57 toughness.
TKAs take 29.67% of the incoming damage without defensive acuity working at all.
TKA with defensive acuity: 1/3 of 50% hits dodge, 1/3 of 50% hits counterattack, 1/3 of 50% hits block. The other 50% is reduced by 31% for melee defense. The remaining 19% AND 8.33% from the block hits 57 toughness
TKAs take 11.75% with defensive acuity working.
Against ranged attacks:
Swordsmen: 50% of incoming damage stopped by counterattack. The other 50% is reduced by 7.5% for ranged defenses.
Swordsmen take 42.5% of the incoming damage.
Fencers: 50% of incoming damage stopped by dodge. The other 50% is reduced by 34.5% for ranged defenses.
Fencers take 15.5% of the incoming damage.
Pikemen: 50% of incoming damage hits block. The other 50% is reduced by 12.5% for ranged defense. 50% of the 50% blocked goes through.
Pikemen take 62.5% of the incoming damage.
TKA without defensive acuity: 0% hits defensive acuity. 100% is reduced by22.5 for ranged defense.
TKAs take 77.5% of the incoming damage without defensive acuity working at all.
TKA with defensive acuity: 1/3 of 50% hits dodge, 1/3 of 50% hits counterattack, 1/3 of 50% hits block. The other 50% is reduced by 22.5% forranged defense. 27.5% + 8.33%.
TKAs take 35.83% of the incoming damage with defensive acuity.
antares
master pikeman
So you want a dev response. . .you got it.
This is working as intended. However if this is not satisfactory then the combat balance will resolve any issues you may have. Please post your suggestions in the pikeman combat thread in the in concept section of the forums.
The combat balance will make combat challenging and engaging again and will make combat much more fluid and dynamic.
Wow really nice post. I've been looking at what to take up for a melee profession and this post has helped alot. Thx Antares for the outline of it all and the hard work you put into this. 
It's appericated .
I think I'm a bad influence on you Skel... you are starting to sound like me. Who's gonna bemy moderating influence now - when I start getting disappointed?
By the way... the results above indicate that defensive acuity is working (at least in some manner beneficial to the TKA), which I have never heard stated before. This is very interesting. Does anyone have anything more to add on this point?
Tybalt
Message Edited by RobbPilot on 04-27-2004 01:50 PM
RobbPilot wrote:
I think I'm a bad influence on you Skel... you are starting to sound like me. Who's gonna bemy moderating influence now - when I start getting disappointed?
By the way... the results above indicate that defensive acuity is working (at least in some manner beneficial to the TKA), which I have never heard stated before. This is very interesting. Does anyone have anything more to add on this point?
Tybalt
Message Edited by RobbPilot on 04-27-2004 01:50 PM
yeah, tell me abou it Pretty soon my hair will turn grey like yours, and I'll walk around all stooped over.
Actually antares included two cases for TKM, one where defensive acuity works and one where it doesn't.
See this is the stuff you do that made me say your are robotic.
I swear Antares is really just some super computer in some Millitary Installation(Area51)that enjoys big sticks.
if TKAs worked as they were supposed to (defense acuity working) it would then be compleatly undesputed that they are overpowered.
Also, although i may be compleatly missinformed, it has been said that when a TKA has +center+ed they get -miss-ed alot more.
Could be unfounded though.
Legwand wrote:
I'm still waiting for that hypocrite St. Gabe to come in here and tell us how these numbers show that swordsmen are really the ones who need the work done.
Thats not nice....St. Gabe has always stuck up for us....