Pikeman Archive
Thread: Talk with dev gives answer!
RaccaBoo
Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:48 pm
#40
cool I'd rather be a tank than a dmg dealer like I thought pikeman was supposed to be. I mean it seems natural that a big pole with a Huge blade would really hurt to get hit with and all.
I really hope we do become what the dev says we are supposed to be and feel eventually we will.
Wow our corospondent is really dedicated been the corospondent since back in october 
.
.He's prolly one of the longest running ones.
Fahd Krath Master Bounty Hunter/Master Jedi Stalker
TurboSith
Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:47 am
#41
would be nice to get a shield.. or have pikeman toughness rival a jedi guardian toughness... unless they redo how dodge works all we are used for is a person who is a suitable sacrifice.... rather then a key to success....
Keiko-
Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:34 am
#42
Well I've been a pikemen for a long while refusing to drop it. Now I'm finding it, that dropping this game is what will be next.
Swordsmen DMG Dealers PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Swordsmen are slow as hell. Not to mention a swordsmen has better def. I've been a M Swordsmen. You know what makes a swordsmen deal so much dmg that pwr hammer but slow as hell. Yet as a swordsmen I could go toe toe with an NS Eldar and killit without breaking a sweat.
As a pikemen we don't even have a weapon that can hurt it. O wait that pos Energy Lance thats not even worth a million. Cheap imatation decoration.. As a pikemen a NS eldar isn't even killable. Not to mention def? What Def. Only thing we have going for us is our dmg. Cough pve only.
Heres a kicker for ya. M Pike, M Sword take on 1 of the same mob with their top weapon. You know the pikemen wins everytime in dropping its mob before the swordsmen. But the Pikemen takes more dmg from the mob then the swordsmen does and he takes longer.
They want to promote grouping now. Its alittle late for that. Honestly. These server are 10x more emoty then they we're when they could of did this and it meant something. All it means now is people standing around screaming LFG. They've got people so used to being able to solo decent stuff if they want to or group to do corvette or DWB. Okay as of right now the DWB as it stands can eat a 10 person group for lunch with the current top armor and weapons. With all the different professions involved. Excuse me mcfly your going to tell me its going to take 20 or hell 50 people to do it to get 1 set of armor completed. Cough waste of time.
Yep go SOE shoot SWG in the foot for that EQ2 launch eh. of course you don't want your big title competeting in the market actively against your baby. So what do you do. Screw with the game enough to get people to drop out of it. Knowing full well people are very unintelligent and will buy EQ2 anyways and help bolster it and you still get money out of it. Even though they canceled out of SWG you regain them in EQ2 which in turn boost the EQ2 market and its popularity to hopefully regain the top of the MMORPG market. Your community will consist of die hard Star Wars fans who just don't care what you do to the game just as long as it has Jedi and is titled Star Wars. I give it maybe 6 months before you see servers closing down. Might be why their going to allow character transfer so they get you all to migrate ot the most popular servers then those on the empty ones that are left are asked to transfer as well cause their pulling the plug on their server. 6 months this game will be dead. Space Expansion will bring alittle life but to be honest. It won't be enough to save a game you already destroyed with some of the worst descions I've seen made. Core game is all jacked. You decide to fix whiney jedi's. Hello the core doesn't work right which holds the majority of your audience yet you play you fix the minority while still everyday you lose more customers over the core game.
Okay I'm done ranting. Die hard players may begin to flame. Afterall its your money to waste.
Gunman21
Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:43 am
#43
If you read the description of pikeman, we are supposed to be the "hardest hitting melee profession." I don't see any description saying we are supposed to be the "best defensive profession". Also, Lord_Pall posted a few months ago that he saw pikeman as the brother to the rifle, slow and hard-hitting.
Turning that around and saying we're tohave super defensesall of a sudden doesn't sit well with me. While Swordsman may be cut out to be the absolute hardest hitting melee profession, that doesn't mean other melee professions, IE us,cannot apeal to damage over defense. One of our top issues for a long time is that we're not damaging enough....if we become tanks we see what we have now go right out the window. TKA and Fencers are more defense oriented, swordsman and pikeman are more damage oriented....theres the balance.
Dodge/Block/Counterattack/ damage absorbtion it all computes to the same thing to me, tanking. If you're taking damage or avoiding it, you're tanking. All Melee are tanks. It's just a question of who survives longer.
Think Royal Guards....they didn't just stand there taking blows while thier pistoleer friend killed the guy did they? The Weequays didn't use thier LVAs to just block blows, they used it offensively.
Defensive doesn't fit with what pikeman is supposed to be.
Message Edited by Gunman21 on 06-10-2004 10:55 AM
annelid0
Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:50 am
#44
Whether or not pikemen are technically supposed to be defensive seems pretty unimportant to me. What's important is that currently we're not defensive in the least. We're reasonably high damage and terrible defense, and there's no good reason to swap those roles a year into the game.
The reason this matters is that presumably most of us playing the class currently don't prize defense above all else. If it was that important to us we'd be fencers or TKA. Instead we're pikemen with abysmal defenses and moderate-high offense. If the devs ignore what we've clearly illustrated we want and turn us into defense-oriented tanking machines they'll eviscerate the class. You can't go from one extreme to another and expect anything else.
Fencers in real life aren't tanks, fine. In the game they are and they have been for 11 months, let them keep it. If we become the tanks most of the fencers will just migrate into pikeman, and most of the pikemen will go elsewhere.
We need a balance, not a complete role reversal.
The reason this matters is that presumably most of us playing the class currently don't prize defense above all else. If it was that important to us we'd be fencers or TKA. Instead we're pikemen with abysmal defenses and moderate-high offense. If the devs ignore what we've clearly illustrated we want and turn us into defense-oriented tanking machines they'll eviscerate the class. You can't go from one extreme to another and expect anything else.
Fencers in real life aren't tanks, fine. In the game they are and they have been for 11 months, let them keep it. If we become the tanks most of the fencers will just migrate into pikeman, and most of the pikemen will go elsewhere.
We need a balance, not a complete role reversal.
LordSerevok
Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:41 pm
#45
Famus_Amus wrote:
I have a question? Why did this guy get two-starred? He went out of his way (literally) to provide the community with valuable feedback. Many thanks my friend.
Thanks! The main reason why i went to fan fest was so I could ask these questions and get some answer instead of knowing nothing of what is going to happing to our class and why nothing has happend. Now we know what the devs are thinking bout and what they plan not only for our class but all of the other classes. We are preety lucky that unlike most of the other classes we wont really be seeing any nerfing to pikemen but an acutal boost to our class so we will be able to be competitive without depending on uber loot and spending millions of credits.
BackBite
Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:58 pm
#46
Well, I think Pikemen would like to be at everything. We can trip and have excellent knock-down capabilities. We have a long reach and can easily knock several opponents around without putting ourselves in harm's way. We are also able to transfer a lot more kinetic energy through our weapon via the sheer amount of inertia generated when our weapon is in motion (I mean, I don't see anything walking away from the skull-splitting they'd receive from a LVA with Hit3). So we should be outstanding in defense, offense, and crowd control. The only thing we shouldn't be any good at is speed.
Unfortunately, we have to share these roles with other classes. Yes, we should be good at something and since I don't really see us wrestling away the Fencers' defensives skills or the Swordsmen's desire to be heavy damage dealers, all that leaves us with is crowd control, which is fine since with have the AoE to begin with. I would much rather see the Swordsmen be the crowd control (think dual wield) and Pikemen be the high-damage profession but I really don't think that's going to happen.
I've always thought that, from a PVP standpoint it should be like this (all things being equal):
• A Swordsman will always beat a Fencer through higher damage output and decent speed and defense.
• A Pikeman will always beat a Swordman through their ability to deal the highest damage and the ability to keep the Swordsman out his weapon's reach.
• A Fencer will always beat a Pikemen through the ability to dodge the Pikeman's relatively slow attack speed and strike faster than the Pikeman can get his defenses up.
This model would allow a sort of rock/paper/scissors sort of revolving superiority...one class is superior to another but inferior to the other. Of course, you throw TKAs (which should be a support class, IMHO) into the mix and it throws this model off because of their speed and their moderate (instead of ultra-light) damage output. To me, TK should be a way for other melee classes to enhance their abilities through agility for better defenses, meditation, and body conditioning for stronger and faster attacks. It should NOT be a stand-alone class but I really, really don't this changing.
Anyway, that's my take on the matter. We're drawn to crowd control because, hell, it's the only option left to us. If we had a developer working on us that was a proactive as some of the others, we'd probably have access or more damage types and would have a role for ourselves. So we're currently stuck here in limbo waiting for the Second Coming of Christ...er, the combat balance (notice I didn't say "rebalance" because things were never that balanced to begin with).
Unfortunately, we have to share these roles with other classes. Yes, we should be good at something and since I don't really see us wrestling away the Fencers' defensives skills or the Swordsmen's desire to be heavy damage dealers, all that leaves us with is crowd control, which is fine since with have the AoE to begin with. I would much rather see the Swordsmen be the crowd control (think dual wield) and Pikemen be the high-damage profession but I really don't think that's going to happen.
I've always thought that, from a PVP standpoint it should be like this (all things being equal):
• A Swordsman will always beat a Fencer through higher damage output and decent speed and defense.
• A Pikeman will always beat a Swordman through their ability to deal the highest damage and the ability to keep the Swordsman out his weapon's reach.
• A Fencer will always beat a Pikemen through the ability to dodge the Pikeman's relatively slow attack speed and strike faster than the Pikeman can get his defenses up.
This model would allow a sort of rock/paper/scissors sort of revolving superiority...one class is superior to another but inferior to the other. Of course, you throw TKAs (which should be a support class, IMHO) into the mix and it throws this model off because of their speed and their moderate (instead of ultra-light) damage output. To me, TK should be a way for other melee classes to enhance their abilities through agility for better defenses, meditation, and body conditioning for stronger and faster attacks. It should NOT be a stand-alone class but I really, really don't this changing.
Anyway, that's my take on the matter. We're drawn to crowd control because, hell, it's the only option left to us. If we had a developer working on us that was a proactive as some of the others, we'd probably have access or more damage types and would have a role for ourselves. So we're currently stuck here in limbo waiting for the Second Coming of Christ...er, the combat balance (notice I didn't say "rebalance" because things were never that balanced to begin with).
Gunman21
Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:32 pm
#47
Backbite the problem with that is the game would become stale and repetitive.
Take warcraft 3. Certain strategies would beat one tactic, yet be vulnerable to others. Pretty soon There were only three or four things players would do, and games became just so predictable and boring that a lot of players stopped playing.
You need a dynamic system where everyone is on level ground and the decisive factors in combat are the tactics of the player, including special use and timing, terrain useage, and so forth.
DarthWeird
Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:36 pm
#48
Didn't really read thru all the thread, heh, just here to throw my thoughts into the mix.
I like the idea of us being tanks. It might have been in the beginning that our current defensive stats were what the devs calculated would be needed to tank against other classes and mobs, but something somewhere went haywire. No telling. But that's all done and set, so we have to look forward to the idea of pikeman as a tank.
To me, tanking and crowd control goes hand-in-hand. A goodtank profession holds the enemy at bay, taking the punishment, and (hopefully) does it mostly without breaking a sweat. Sounds an awful lot like "crowd control" to me. And it seems a lot of people want us to have high damage to go along with this. Which is just wrong if I understand the point of the combat balance correctly. I see it as being not only a balance of profession vs. profession, but also as a balance of professions working together.
Let's face it; whether you like it or not, this is a MMORPG, you play with other people. Now it's not that I'm against soloing in combat, but their odds of survival and success should be enhanced greatly when playing with others. In this case, let's say that riflemen will be the highest damage-dealing ranged profession but with the leastamount of defenseafter the balance (which I'm just guessing, don't take my word for it). Pairing up a pikeman and rifleman would be a good idea; the pikeman does a good job of taking the damage, while the rifleman lays it on the enemy, making up for the lack of the pikeman's offense.
I guess what I'm rambling about is that I see many people only thinking of how they would fare in profession vs. profession as a tank, rather than working with other professions to fight against other ones. I know not everyone will enjoy my point of view of having to work with other people to succeed, but like I said before, this is a MMORPG.
BackBite
Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:14 pm
#49
Gunman21 wrote:
Backbite the problem with that is the game would become stale and repetitive.
Take warcraft 3. Certain strategies would beat one tactic, yet be vulnerable to others. Pretty soon There were only three or four things players would do, and games became just so predictable and boring that a lot of players stopped playing.
You need a dynamic system where everyone is on level ground and the decisive factors in combat are the tactics of the player, including special use and timing, terrain useage, and so forth.
That's why I said "all things being equal". You have things like armor (if it worked correctly), buffs, different damage types, and dabbling to lend a little chaos to the outcome.
I was just trying to define each class' role in melee. There's problems with the way I think things should work, I'm sure. But, at the same time, you mention things becoming stale because players have limited options as to what they can do but isn't that the way things are now? Aren't you pretty much limited in PvP combat right now to wearing 80% composite withstun protection, being buffed as much of the time as possible, and being a Rifleman, a Fencer with a stun baton, or a Combat Medic?
Sure, things change all the time that make one option more appealing than the other but at any given time there's going to be a change (e.g. NS with no Force powers) that, intentionally or not, causes a massive flocking of players to one alternative or the otherbecause it's simply the best combat solution at that point in time.
Anyway, sorry. I'm just brainstorming (too little to do at work today). I think there's problems with any solution but I hope we, as Pikemen, find a place where we're useful in the near future. That's all that really matters.
BaronPwent
Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:20 pm
#50
I think Xislar summed the situation up perfectly. Pikeman should be the tankers,the crowd control. I think the reason so many pikemen would like to seeus withhigh damage output is because we currently have practically the worse damage potential of the melee profs. I see pikeman weapons almost as the melee version of a commando heavy weapon. Pikeman weapons should have the highest damage and the slowest speed when compared to other melee profs. A pikeman should for the most part be the one soaking damage not the one dealing it. Toughness should be our strong point along with a a higher resistance to things like posture changes and knockdown. A pikeman shouldn't be the one laying on their back struggling to get up. A pikeman should be the one knocking enemies down and keeping the offbalance.
ScDarkKnight
Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:15 am
#51
Gunman21 wrote:
If you read the description of pikeman, we are supposed to be the "hardest hitting melee profession." I don't see any description saying we are supposed to be the "best defensive profession". Also, Lord_Pall posted a few months ago that he saw pikeman as the brother to the rifle, slow and hard-hitting.
Turning that around and saying we're tohave super defensesall of a sudden doesn't sit well with me. While Swordsman may be cut out to be the absolute hardest hitting melee profession, that doesn't mean other melee professions, IE us,cannot apeal to damage over defense. One of our top issues for a long time is that we're not damaging enough....if we become tanks we see what we have now go right out the window. TKA and Fencers are more defense oriented, swordsman and pikeman are more damage oriented....theres the balance.
Dodge/Block/Counterattack/ damage absorbtion it all computes to the same thing to me, tanking. If you're taking damage or avoiding it, you're tanking. All Melee are tanks. It's just a question of who survives longer.
Think Royal Guards....they didn't just stand there taking blows while thier pistoleer friend killed the guy did they? The Weequays didn't use thier LVAs to just block blows, they used it offensively.
Defensive doesn't fit with what pikeman is supposed to be.
Message Edited by Gunman21 on 06-10-2004 10:55 AM
Yep .. but Rifleman is also the "tank" of the ranged profession ... 40 melee def and 70 ranged def =D
Just kidding dont hurt me hehe =P
Crowd Controler is what I want to be ... I guess we'll need "some" tanking ability to do so ... higher toughness anyway
Well .. actually ... crowd controler with a staff ... and hard hitting profession with a Axe ...
anyway ... we'll see
Myst_Shade
Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:27 am
#52
mmmmm wonder why the emperors guards are pikeman.......maybe theres a "force work as it should be" thing somewere 