Pikeman Archive

Message Edited by Excalibar on 09-16-2004 01:54 AM

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FSCSexplorer wrote:

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jediwanter wrote:

How long have they been guardians in the old system and knights in the new system? Which templates are they coming from on Live? Would be nice to know what experience you chose.....or is it based on posts?

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Wasn't Zina one of SWG's first Jedi ?

/votes Zina !!

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ZinaTheMaker wrote:

i am aware of a lot of the issues a jedi has in pvp. jedi is the hardest class to balance, because i think with respect to other professions, u balance those for masters which make up the majority. with the insane time that must be put into jedi, balancing jedi is a much more difficult task.

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ZinaTheMaker wrote:

last comment, its a shame to see arjun step down. i truely beleive that we need 2 jedi correspondants and 1 fs correspondant.

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JutMan wrote:

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ZinaTheMaker wrote:

last comment, its a shame to see arjun step down. i truely beleive that we need 2 jedi correspondants and 1 fs correspondant.

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I would have to agree here.. Seeing that Jedi Forums have nearly 300K more posts than any other forum.. Followed closest by the Bounty Hunter Forums. Also, Force Sensetivity does need it's own forums and correspondant.. You are not a "regular" player and you are not a "Jedi". It is like a huge grey area that is too much for the Jedi forums. So much current information is being posted about Jedi but pushed down by the "old man" questions. Nothing againsttheJedi seekers but between FS and Jedi both are really getting lost. I would also say that Jedi forums almost needs a8/7 moderator to lock threads and clear content. The Tech Support boards rocks and is done asit should be done here.

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with the addition of FS, there is only one area to post FS questions currently, and that IS the jedi forums. heck jedi had enough issues when it only existed as jedi. now add thousands of players to the mix who are FS with FS questions...u get the point.

jedi has existed for a while now, and some of the problems and concerns we have are major. i just don't wanna see a good post buried under 50 "how do i get jedi now" posts or "the old man wont visit me". im not saying that those questions dont deserve answers, but theres not enough space here for every FS and Jedi issue to be addressed.

theres a huge difference between issues that a person with one open FS line and a rank 2 sentinel has. i think after a while, 50% of the SWG population will be FS, if not more. we need jedi, and we need fs forums.

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JutMan wrote:

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ZinaTheMaker wrote:

last comment, its a shame to see arjun step down. i truely beleive that we need 2 jedi correspondants and 1 fs correspondant.

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I would have to agree here.. Seeing that Jedi Forums have nearly 300K more posts than any other forum.. Followed closest by the Bounty Hunter Forums. Also, Force Sensetivity does need it's own forums and correspondant.. You are not a "regular" player and you are not a "Jedi". It is like a huge grey area that is too much for the Jedi forums. So much current information is being posted about Jedi but pushed down by the "old man" questions. Nothing againsttheJedi seekers but between FS and Jedi both are really getting lost. I would also say that Jedi forums almost needs a8/7 moderator to lock threads and clear content. The Tech Support boards rocks and is done asit should be done here.

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Absolutely in agreement with you both on this.

There is a correspondent for each profession. Jedi has 5 'professions', FS path, Padawan path, then FRS path.

I honestly have trouble seeing any one person being able to juggle all of these effectively to the development team. And all need a lot of attention.

Arjun supposedly asked for a FS forum. Given the fact we have 300k more posts then other forums, this is a 'no brainer' decision- when boards get busy, you split them up so folks can find posts on the topics they want. Jedi boards can easily be split into at least 3 boards and still have a lot of traffic, but it would be easier to find the posts related to your progress in the Jedi path.

'Make it so'

Ren

I just have a few questions for our panel and Arjun..

I see that most of the panel (3/5 and from a PvP server) were "early unlockers" (which implies lucky as well), and "early guardians" (which implies using various bugs and bad system design for an easy ride). Given that, I would be very curious as to how you will go about testing/verifying on the sandbox (and as correspondent in general, should one of you get the position) the issues of Padawan and lower level Jedi?

I can't tell you how many times I saw 'veteran' and 'early unlockers' telling the community to use "force throw" on lairs to get 4,000 JEDI xp when there should be NO question it was a bug or oversight on the part of the Devs. It made me sick (still does) to see all the "guides" saying "take power 3 to get force throw before anything else, it will make getting xp a breeze".

Another question.. did any of our panel EVER have a saber sliced? or pass one off to ANYONE? If so, I think they should recuse them selves as cheaters/exploiters (even if they didn't get caught) as they do NOT represent the community.. Hell, if they used "Force Throw" to level early on, even though there was no "official" statement that it wasn't inteded, I don't think they should be able to represent "us" or test for "us".. why? Cause all of the "holes" have been patched. They are gone, and CURRENT Jedi and new Padawans will NOT have those holes or oportunities to level.. If our testers do NOT play a NEW PADAWAN to see how we have to face the world, and MAKE SURE it's fair and balanced compared to the rest of the world (though, I understand the Devs will make it a grind, that's their goal), then they are failing the LARGEST POPULATION of Jedi out there.. current low-level and all the -new- Jedi to be.

I'm also concerend with using all high level knights simply because even most Jedi don't want there to be any Jedi (EDIT: any -more- Jedi.. even most current Jedi like the idea of having Jedi rare, and are biased toward freezing out new Jedi despite their easy ascent). They seem to think making the grind harder now is a good idea, even though they were able to mostly afk-grind Jedi in the past (and those tend to be the SAME losers who cry when a BH 3-incap kills them while afk-grinding in a PA hall.. exploiting bugs and cry when they die from one.. for shame!)

Anyway, that's my concern. I had a Jedi back in Feb. when perma-death was still on (the tail end of it, sure.. but still in place). I ran my Jedi for a few wks to get a feel for it, and parked it when I heard we would have a revamp. I could have EASILY afk-ground for a few weeks to get Force Throw, then started hitting lairs and been 4/4/4/4 guardian by April, but I want to "play" my Jedi, not exploit holes and be powerful fast just to do it. I figured that with the tweaks that were going on and the pending fixing of the BH missions (which got hosed for months anyway), I'd wait to play my Jedi till the system was running better. I waited until Pub 9 (was on TC2 as well, trying to build a knight to see what the endgame might be like.. what a mess that was) to see what was going to happen, and with the demolishing of the defense tree (and moving skills around), I decided to not bother playing until Pub 10 to see if my main would be Padawan like promised (suprise! no padawan).

I understand why Arjun left. The Devs don't want to listen, or will leave things broke like this to discourage play.. But, we (lower level Jedi who -will- get bored as hell if we can never advance in the new system and have to watch as the old-school Jedi who got there via bugs run around being able to actually survive; that bordem leads to duels in starports and cities.. NOONE wants to see that kind of crap) need some kind of testing/representation on sandbox as well. We also (in general) need people who do not condone (and have not used) bug-using as a viable means to advance. Anyone that says using bugs is "reasonable" should NOT be allowed to test (even by trying to hide behind the statement "well, the Devs haven't removed it" or "the Devs didn't say it was a bug"), nor should they be allowed -any- input into the system.

Anyway, I'm just worried that a crew of Knights will not adequately look at the issues of lower-level Jedi.

Message Edited by SavantDude on 09-17-2004 12:36 PM

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SavantDude wrote:
Thanks Zarathustra for replying..

What I was getting at with the force throw issue is that, for ME, it was OBVIOUS that it was NOT intended. It flys in the face of reason to believe that a fairly NON-DAMAGING attack (it's a KD/dizzy thing, is it not?) would do 10x MORE damage to a lair than cutting it down with a saber? and ONLY that ONE attack would do it? Be honest, you truely believe it was the intent of the Devs to have that in? it didn't wreak of "oops.. bug, but no biggy.. no one gets killed from it*?

Actually, this wasn't just limited to jedi- for the longest time, folks used DOTs such as bleeds (Pikemen used to have a 4k action bleed!) and poison to reduce a mob, then switch to a weapon they wanted the full xp for. For example- you bleed a piket, switch to unarmed, get one hit in and get 4k experience. DEFINITELY a bug. Even an exploit. I actually reported it, and I admit- I used it a week after reporting it and not getting it fixed to help a number of friends get to master TKA in just a few hours. We actually want testers who can FIND these exploits and report them in Beta, before going live. It's akin to hiring the virus designers to help build anti-virus software. Ethical grey area, but likely pretty effective. The key here is - reporting them! I would not want testers in the sandbox that are great at finding and using exploits, but never report them. I found out about the meditate force bug a week or so before they fixed it- and reported it. Then never used it, because that one , IMO, was making Jedi look far far more powerful then they should be, and would have severe negative effects on all jedi. And it did.

Also, I was under the -distinct- impression that there were NO JEDI during Beta.. that before launch in June 2003, NOONE had seen a Jedi, they didn't exist. It wasn't until month 3 after release that Jedi FIRST appeared, and were the butchered "normal profession/char" template we had (10 lots even though you couldn't place structures.. 0/250 skill points when you were made, etc etc). It was about a month after that that I started reading the forums regularly and I promise you, I was VERY vocal about FT on lairs, and slicing sabers.

Devs and QA tested Jedi 'internally'. Yet if you look at the net result, you have to wonder how well it was tested. It was impossible to master it. Kinetic LS damage. And lack of state defences etc... I suppose looking that far back gets into the realm of 'not constructive' at this time. I heard the original concept of Jedi was to be a mixed regular class/jedi which is where you could get the AP pts to master. But the devssaw that as 'too powerful' so nerfed it and made it jedi only.

Speaking of slicing sabers.. did you or anyone on our panel do that? I'd be curious (don't bother saying no.. if you did, just reflect on it please.. not trying to get anyone in trouble here)

I also found out about slicing, though was not the first. I never figured out 'multi-slicing'. I also destroyed my sliced sabers after it was announced it was an exploit.Initially however, sabers were tradeable and could be sliced 'normally' so there was a big grey area if it was as designed or not. Honestly, given kinetic damage against a melee stacker- single sliced sabers were later considered an exploit (I could still debate this given the damage output a sliced T21 could do, at range, per second), but nowhere near as bad as what really caused the devs to get upset- MULTI slicing sabers to 4000+ damage. It was the multi slicing resulting in numerous bans, and it was not only related to lightsabers - though lightsabers gained more attention then the rest due to the 'high profile' nature of Jedi.

I'm glad to hear that you guys are already making a plan of attack.. I understand you might be limited by what the Devs give you to work with.. rebuilding templates and the like.. I would also ask though, that if you get stuck with one build for the most part that one of you (at least) suck it up and build a baby Padawan.. I know it will be stinky compared to the others running Knights, but it needs to be done..

No way in the world am I going to stick with one template for the sandbox. That would be ineffective testing. If thats what the devs give us, I'll pass my slot up to something else. We need to be able to change templates a lot to track down exploits and stacking bugs as well as test all the other profession moves AGAINST jedi. A good example are the combo hits that bypass toughness. We need to know what a baby padawan is capable of, and how long to level up that first initial box as well as what mobs they can fight.

As far as "post 10 unlockers".. I would argue that I technically probably count that way even though I unlocked in Feb. Why? Cause I don't play my Jedi much.. Like I said, currently I'm 0/0/2/0 LS, novice Def/Healer.. though, even that is a few weeks ahead of a new Padawan, the difference is they 'start' with a decent template (Fencer/TK mostly.. or some other weapon for backup).. I started with no defensive skills at all and refused to wear armour. I was actually pretty suprised to see melee defense working while I had my saber out last night (first time I hunted with my Jedi since pre-pub 9).

All said, I thank you for your response. It actually helps renew my faith that our representation in the combat rebalace is fairly adequate, if not totally reasonable. Just, please.. keep in mind us lowly Jedi once you actually get to the sandbox (I realize you have us in mind now, but once you log in and start playing, don't forget us! )

I don't think you'll let us And that's perfectly fine with me. Hopefully we'll be able to post 'focus threads' on the public forums for what folks are concerned with and use as bases for focus testing in the sandbox. Also, have you signed up to the private jedi forums? Folks 'who care' such as yourself would be really helpful to adding to the test plans and ideas topics we'll have there.

Thanks for your constructive concerns. The sandbox team has a lot of concerns too lol.

Ren

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Renairdor wrote:

I don't think you'll let us And that's perfectly fine with me. Hopefully we'll be able to post 'focus threads' on the public forums for what folks are concerned with and use as bases for focus testing in the sandbox. Also, have you signed up to the private jedi forums? Folks 'who care' such as yourself would be really helpful to adding to the test plans and ideas topics we'll have there.

Thanks for your constructive concerns. The sandbox team has a lot of concerns too lol.

Ren

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Message Edited by BenderTheGreat on 09-17-2004 03:03 PM