Pikeman Archive
Thread: Stacking Defence
Vopn nicely put
now if we could just get a Dev to read it and acually listen to it we would be set.
Idealy what i would like to see is more pure combat templates along the master rifle, TKA, some fencer line.
so insted of seeing aone defence build there would bemore viable options topick from.
YarKi why the huge issue with stacking isent that what a point system is for?
If things are not going to stack then why bother with a point system at all?
just make it levle based and get it over with.
No i agree with you that the way things stand right no is a problume but give everyone a few more defences across their trees and that should balance things out. so insted of a nerf you just bring everyone up to par with what is working.
if this game goes to a system where everything is independent of skills in other trees then all you have is EQ without the levles or the loot, not exsactly a winning combo if you ask me.
The stacked defense templates were basically a response to the stacked offensive templates. If they make defenses not stack, they will very shortly have to make offensive modifiers not stack. This does not even go into the coding nightmare of changing this. (the dodge/block etc change is easy, since each only comes from 2 sources, the other defensive mods can come from up to 10)
There are currently 3 very different TYPES of templates people use for pvp, offensive, defensive and balanced.
Offensive templates are usually based on pistol. Thereare the various combinations of pistol/BH/smuggler. There are also offensive templates based on commando (+pistols, + rifle +smuggler +TKA) These templates count on high damage or stacked accuracy or various state attacks. Other offensive combos include MRifle+M2H (4 stacked mind bleeds).
Defensive combos sacrafice offensive power for defensive stats. The main combos include M pistol+ M fencer, Pistol+smuggler+multiple melee (dabble), or Pistol or carbine + TKA. Other variants are the pure melee stacks: TKM+M fencer or a dabble of TKA/Fencer/Pike/sword. Even after the dodge stack change the M Pistol + M fencer is a very formidable opponent.
Balanced combos do not have quite the offensive ability of an offensive combo, or the defenses of a defensive combo but have well above average ability at both. These include MRM+TKM, MRM+M fencer+TKA, Commando + Doc, TKM+Doc.
All of these are currently viable combinations. The only reason there are not more is that there are still broken professions. Carbine and Pike leap to mind. If these were working the way they should compared to the other professions, you would see several additional combos show up very fast: Carbine+ Pike, Carbine+rifle (an AOE dizzy and an AOE KD for the ultimate offensive combo), Rifle+Pike.
Many of the people calling for the stacked defense nerf are people with offensive stacks that suddenly are less effective than they were. They are by no means ineffective, just less effective against others.
Most of the people here have stated that a change making higher levels of defenses worth less is not a bad idea. Changes of this nature are easier to include (code) and do not make the major changes to the entire game balance. Slashing defenses (and yes, making them not stack is a nerf, they have stacked since the game came out) will make offensive combinations much more powerful, resulting in the current people with defensive and balanced combos moving to the fewer offensive combinations, resulting in additional nerfs to compensate.
As far as there not being alot of loopholes left(i disagree that accuracy and defense stacking are loopholes)there are several: the new HAM system will make spamming easier; bleeds/poisons/disease bypass defenses; Damage mitigation does not effect unarmed, and have minimal effect on pistols; Melee hits at 20m with some attacks; ranged can still fire through hills; little rocks and trees block LOS to any target. This is off the top of my head and does not count any new possibilites added by the coming changes. An addition to the rifle speed cap has several secondary effects that the devs must account for.
YarKi wrote:
Well your proposal is a call for a nerf, is it not?
Good point.
The thing is that I don't think super defence templates will escape the nerf bat, however much players try and protest it. My idea was the best thing I could come up with that would enable defences to stack while limiting the whole unhitable thing.
As I've said in other posts, I'm all for having different templates viable instead of forcing everyone who wants to be a good combat character to become BH / Commando.
If they want to make them less common, they can do what they did to CH.
Take the defensive mods (ranged and melee defense), accuracy, and weapon speed and distribute them throughout the entire tree. This will require you to master the profession to get the stacked mods, and not just a single tree in most cases.
Lets look at what can be done to counter a "defensive" template:
TKM, 200+ accuracy only 93 points. I have +178 melee D and they dont miss period. Even with +200 melee D, a TKM has at least 65% chance to hit auto, even higher with specials.
Pistoleer/BH, 200+ accuracy. Remember that most BH and high level pistol specials adds +50 to accuracy so at the very worst their accuracy will be 200, hitting anyone with 200 range D 65% of time at the worst.
Carbine/BH, has the highest combined accuracy in the game if I remember right. Again this combo hits just about anyone with a high percentage, that is without adding aim mind you.
I hope everyone remembers how it use to be, there was no defense before and I am telling you now if defenses do NOT stack it will be the same way again.
One thing I think needs to happen is melee get some kind of aim ability, with this IMO there is absolutely no problem with defenses stacking.
Jeisyn wrote:
for arguments' sake - you're saying that two players who spend 150 skill points magically multiply into oneentity, who spent 300, has 320 rifle accuracy, and has 145'ish ranged defense... that doesn't quite make sense to me..
No what I am saying is that you can not reduce the argument to "the more points spent on combat abilities the better chance of victory" unless you are willing to take it to its ultimate conclusion -- "the more points spent on combat abilities by agiven sidethe higher the chance of victory". This game is not supposed to be about one on one combat. It is a "gallactic war" (dropping the civil part because it isirrelevant).
The biggest argument used by the proponents of uber templates is that unless you allow combinations to be more effective than pure professions, you are reducing the game to the class systemfrom a skill system. What is lost in the semantics of the argument is the counterpoint that in the current system two or three templates are uber therefor redusing the game to class based anyway but with reducing10 combat classes down to 3.
A few people figgured out that stacking defenses is the key and a good template to achieve uber defense combined with some great firepower. Kudos to them/you. But how long do you think it will be before you are fighting nothing but cookie cutters of yourself? Yeah a CM can be the paper to your rock under just the right conditions, so add CM to the 3 uber templates and you have 4 combat classes. Still way short of 10.
I started off thinking that defense stacking is a workable system that just needs tweaking. I am more inclined now to think different.
"the more points spent on combat abilities by agiven sidethe higher the chance of victory".
this seems to be exactly the way it is now, no? I know when i'm in a rebel raiding/defending party against a group of elite imperial pvp'ers (there is very good pvp on Tempest, a couple guilds devoted solely to pvp) - the one who brought more 'uber' players generally wins, both in Templates/skill points, and in experience.
I say this after about 30 hours of pvp on the weekend (sick, i know.)
anyways, this is a very interesting subject, and i'm very glad that i'm not the one who has to come up with a "fair" balance!
personally, i'd put 2x Melee dmg on (Master?)rifleman and call it a day. (and see how that goes).
Calling for defense changes is at best shortsighted. As the system now works, every defense has a way to negate or bypass it. By lowering the defenses, you are eventually calling for an offensive nerf to balance it out. Instead, look at the ways to establish the balance.
Dodge/block/counterattack/DA - weapon specific now (TK defensive acuity is broken along with block apparently)
Ranged defense - Aim modifiers (it slows your rate of fire, but you usually WILL hit at master, even against 200+ defense.) If it needs change make it a deminishing returns change as has been proposed here. If the proposed speed cap is implemented, this will not really slow master rifle down.
State Defenses - pure damage. Against someone with high state defenses you concentrate on pure damage output.
Also consider the ramifications of this typ of nerf. If the defenses don't stack, the players who have concentrated their templates will just find another effective template. Instead of the current 6 combos, you will have possibably even fewer effective templates. Before the current changes, you had the exact same issue, but it was CH, BH and Commando. Now it is The various elite combinations. Nerfing the current abilities will not fix anything, just move it around.
Another thing to consider. Damage Mitigation has changed the landscape significantly. Players who min/max their defenses without mastering the professions do not have damage mitigation III. This puts them at a significant disadvantage.
The current system lets you master 2 elite professions and dabble in 1-2 other professions. By concentrating into 1 additional combat profession, you can only stack defenses to the 150-175 point on a select type of defense (range/melee or state, not both). In order to acheive higher defenses you are forced to only dabble in the professions. This sacrafices the high end damage output and the high end damage mitigation for betted defenses. That is a fair trade off.
Balancing the game so that everyone is limited to a certain level of effectivness (i.e. a single combat profession) will only result in the overpopulation of BH and Commando again. (been there, done that, was not that fun) The system as it stands allows those who want to play a pure combat character do so, and rewards their playstyle. Just as it allows players who want to do multiple things (fight and craft, heal and craft etc) to do so and have fun. The cost of versitility is less pure combat effectiveness. The cost of pure combat ability is no versitility. (you can only do a limited number ot thngs in game.)
I'd far rather have stacking defences worth less than just taken away totally.
The penalty for using a rifle in melee needs to be fixed badly.
have both range/melee defense AND all accuracy mods work the same way.
1-100 works as is.
100-200 each point is only 50% effective.
200+ each point is only 25% effective.
This would keep balance between offense and defense and would discourage taking defense and accuracy stacking to an extreame.