Musician Archive
Thread: My response to the common justifications of buff-bots
The first assumes that because SOE allows something they encourage it. It ignores the fact that there are unforeseen outcomes when a game is beta-tested with a small population and that what might not have been a problem in development became one when players have had months to figure out how to make macros. For a real world analogy, just because you CAN kill someone doesn't mean you SHOULD..
The second response seems to be the most valid in that there are few live entertainers ever around. Still, its flaw is that it assumes that it is ok to do something wrong as long as either everyone else does it or that it is means (buff-botting because there are no entertainers at all) to a better end (that end being the customer buffed). We all know the phrase that is used to respond to the former: Would you jump off a bridge if everyone else did? The response to the second seems to be that the ends do not justify the means, but if the favorable end is unattainable without unfavorable means, does that not point out that the means to attain such an end should be adjusted? I.e. our profession needs modification.
The third response also seems perfectly valid, but is maybe the most easily refuted. If a factory told the EPA that they aren't affecting the whole the country with its toxic waste dumping, and the excuse was taken, it would open up the door for every other factory to do the same, thus leading to toxic dumping all over the country. For a less practical refuation, take for example Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative. To sum it up, before you do something, think about how society would be affected if everyone else did the same. In this case, if everyone buff-botted, there would be no need for the entertainer professions and the system of BF and the healing of mind wounds would be abolished. Obviously this would not be a good effect, though some people would care to differ with me.
Hopefully, SOE will see the entertainer point of view on this issue and not cave in to tempting excuses by buff-botters. Also, please feel free to argue with buff-botters who cling to these excuses and try to show them that it is wrong.
Akkurscid wrote:
DIsagree...
There are never enough live entertainers around. I go to the same Bot everyday. If you take my Bot away, (It's not reallymy character,but you know whatI mean) are you going to stay, online around the clock, on the same planet, andin the same city/cantina everyday?
If the answer is NO then you prove the point of why we need Buff bots.
The solution is get rid of stackable defenses which would make it so Single Combat Profession Templatesare just as "tough" as Mutiple Combat Profession Templates. Thiswould allowmore people to have "Entertainer" as part of their profession template, and that would alleviate some of the Entertainer shortage.
The same applies to the AFK crafter types.
Well today I don't feel there is an entertainer "shortage". There are many more than the market really needs. The fact that they are gathered in 3-5 locations is because most do not want to be entertainers to entertain. They are here in passing and we all know why. When that ends the numbers will lower, but I think you'll see us more spread out. Changing the system will help for those people who need healing, but I doubt that, even with relaxed skill point requirements, anyone is going to master an entertainer elite without us being able to self buff.
Just my 2 cents.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Guild Leader - Performer United Professional Society (PUPS)
Band Leader and Booking Agent - Frag's Puppies
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
Fragpuppie wrote:
OK ...I think the point is being lost a bit here. No we are not going to stay, online around the clock, on the same planet, and in the same city/cantina everyday! What makes it that there HAS to be someone aroundalways for your buffing pleasure. I'm sure that doctors are not ALWAYS around to provide buffs. I've even had to drop skills to get novice medic to heal myself when medics have not been around.
The point is that because "buffbotting" is so easy, real entertainers cannot compete. For this reason, they leave the profession. So there are less atk performers. So more people demand buffbots. Its a cycle.
If buffbots were disallowed, more entertainers would return and provide buffing as their source of income.
Please do not refer to entertainer buffs as a "right". It is a boon you get from us. Whether or not it is "necessary" to do things is a function of the balalance in the game. Remember that if you cannot use a buffbot, neither can the jedi you are hunting.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Guild Leader - Performer United Professional Society (PUPS)
Band Leader and Booking Agent - Frag's Puppies
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
Item 1) I have never failed to find a doctor outside of either Coronet or Theed Starports.
Item 2) Real entertainers will come back when combatants don't need to stack their defenses in order to stay competive. (FYI meaning they don't have to have more than one combat class. Right now it is a must that is why commandos and MBH are so weak in PvP,No ability to Stack Defenses)
Edit I forgot to add if there were enough availble Entertainers I would have no problems with Buff Bots going the way of the Dino, but until you are as plentyful as Doctors I don't see the need for Buff Bots going away.
PS I can't believe how many timesI had to edit this 
Message Edited by Akkurscid on 06-22-2004 01:20 PM
Akkurscid wrote:
DIsagree...
There are never enough live entertainers around. I go to the same Bot everyday. If you take my Bot away, (It's not reallymy character,but you know whatI mean) are you going to stay, online around the clock, on the same planet, andin the same city/cantina everyday?
If the answer is NO then you prove the point of why we need Buff bots.
The solution is get rid of stackable defenses which would make it so Single Combat Profession Templatesare just as "tough" as Mutiple Combat Profession Templates. Thiswould allowmore people to have "Entertainer" as part of their profession template, and that would alleviate some of the Entertainer shortage.
The same applies to the AFK crafter types.
Staying online around the clock is not neccessary, as you should be able to find an entertainer with your search tool in game, or check out the map and see if any of the cantinas show they have an entertainer on board. There are several entertainer-centric guilds spead over the various galaxies. You may have to hop a shuttle to another planet to find someone, but you can find someone, even if it is in one of the entertainer cities.
Would you not search high and low for medical buffs? Why is it any different for entertainers? I will tell you why. Because entertainers are not regarded as a neccessary profession and they are deemed to be the lowest on the totem-pole of any of the classes.
We do not have to charge for our services and for a lot of people, myself included, if you ask for a buff,are more than happy to provide one for you free of charge, and if you were to ask how much,a lot, myself as well,say that you can just tip whatever you feel is fair.
We are not needed to play the game, with the lone exception of BF healing and I hope that doesn't change. Brandy and Muon as a backup provide you with sufficent Mind, Willpower and Focus. So naturally since you can aquire similar effects without seeing an entertainer, a lot go that route and then hit the local bot so they don't have to "stare at" or "converse" with an entertainer. Or even worse, they don't have to pay.
Entertainers survive on the gratitude of the masses for whom we provide a service. Some people, like myself have totaly dedicated thier character to being a total entertainer character, others augment with a combat profession so they can go hunting and make "sure thing" credits, or just to be able to go out and get away from the cantina.
The people that the buff bots are hurting the most are the ones that are non-coms, and rely on tips as thier sole means of income. before the holo-grind fest came into being, I would pull in 20k on an average night of just 2 hours play. Now in that same 2 hour period, but this is over a weeks time mind you,I have made 360 credits. Thats right......the entertainer professions are so devalued now and in part to the buff bots.
Unless you are a PvPer, there is no reason to stack profs. And even if you are a "stacked" player, we all have to choose what we want to do to have fun, but within a defined arena. We can not all go out and be combat gods as well as be a musician or dancer god. The game was designed with interaction of the classes in mind. And in some cases it is forced upon us, even if we don't entirely agree about it.
You can make a 100% self sufficent character, it is allowed, just don't PvP unless you have lots of friends. 
Durney Kova
Master Entertainer / Master Musician / Master Image Designer / Novice Dancer
Akkurscid wrote:DIsagree...There are never enough live entertainers around. I go to the same Bot everyday. If you take my Bot away, (It's not reallymy character,but you know whatI mean) are you going to stay, online around the clock, on the same planet, andin the same city/cantina everyday?If the answer is NO then you prove the point of why we need Buff bots.The solution is get rid of stackable defenses which would make it so Single Combat Profession Templatesare just as "tough" as Mutiple Combat Profession Templates. Thiswould allowmore people to have "Entertainer" as part of their profession template, and that would alleviate some of the Entertainer shortage.The same applies to the AFK crafter types.
You seem to be avoiding my arguement by implying that you deserve to be buffed at any time of the day. I'm sorry, but you do not. By comparing us to docs, you make one mistake. There are many more docs than entertainers. Thus, at any time of the day there will always be MORE docs than entertainers, many more. Furthermore, while doc buffs are almost a necessity, our buffs are, sadly, weaker, as they rely on what your normal mind stats are. Remember what I said in my first post? Your excuse falls under the latter of number two which means that musicians need a change in the buff mechanic. This however, does not justify buff-botting right now. Whether it is right or wrong does not depend on the immediate outcome of the action. The action in and of itself is wrong, whether or not you are getting buffed when no live musician would give it to you. Another thought to consider: Do you really need to be buffed 24/7? No, only if you are hunting things far superior than yourself(and not grouping when you are hunting them) or PvPing. Do you do that 24/7?
As to the stacking issue, you have 250 skill points to use however you want. If you want to stack defensive mods, go ahead, if you want to be more well rounded go ahead. Remember, the guy who stacks (and is "unfair" in your opinion) gives up the ability to buff himself and he needs someone to buff him like you. Whereas you, the well-rounded character can buff yourself and save time. The saved time is the opportunity cost associated with your profession choice. Oh, and PvP has been broken since day 1, don't use it as an excuse to buff-bot.
Finally, try answering what I said orginally and not replying with more excuses. My post was to argue that the excuses were illogical and incorrect, and so far you have done nothing to disprove what I said.
BHM wrote:I respect your opinions and your concerns, but you also have to understand that a mind buff is a must with the current combat system...
Then take that up with the devs, and don't use it as an excuse to support buff-botting.
Fragpuppie wrote:Please do not refer to entertainer buffs as a "right". It is a boon you get from us.
Amen
Ok line by line for you...
Tokaf wrote:
You seem to be avoiding my arguement by implying that you deserve to be buffed at any time of the day. I need to be buffed while hunting
I'm sorry, but you do not. In your opinion
By comparing us to docs, you make one mistake. There are many more docs than entertainers.I have said when Entertainers are as plentyful as Docs there will be no need for Buff Bots Edit: but it was in another thread.
Thus, at any time of the day there will always be MORE docs than entertainers, many more. Furthermore, while doc buffs are almost a necessity, our buffs are, sadly, weaker, as they rely on what your normal mind stats are. A buff is a buff. In my line of "work" if you don't have a buff you are at a disadvantage, and you need every advantage to compete. Remember Bounty Hunters are supposed to be hunting Jedi. Jedi even appear on our terminals if we don't want them too.
Remember what I said in my first post? Your excuse falls under the latter of number two which means that musicians need a change in the buff mechanic. This however, does not justify buff-botting right now. What justfies Buff Botting "is" not getting buffed on demand. I know you said I'm not entitled to be buffed on demand, which is why I go see a Buff Bot. You really aren't helping your own cause much.
Whether it is right or wrong does not depend on the immediate outcome of the action. The action in and of itself is wrong, whether or not you are getting buffed when no live musician would give it to you. This statement is entirely in your own opinion.
Another thought to consider: Do you really need to be buffed 24/7? No, only if you are hunting things far superior than yourself(and not grouping when you are hunting them) or PvPing. Do you do that 24/7? I'm a MBH I'm supposed to be hunting Jedis. It can take a very long time to track down a Jedi. I need to be buffed when I have him cornered.
As to the stacking issue, you have 250 skill points to use however you want. If you want to stack defensive mods, go ahead, if you want to be more well rounded go ahead. Remember, the guy who stacks (and is "unfair" in your opinion) gives up the ability to buff himself and he needs someone to buff him like you. I'm pretty sure the Stackable Defense mods are a Developer oversight. Otherwise the Skill point shorted classes (mainly Commando and Bounty Hunter) would have vastly superior defenses. As it is Stackable Defenses are (IMO)a trick. Kinda like a buff bot. EDIT I should add that I never claimed Stacking Defenses was unfair, you made that up.
Whereas you, the well-rounded character can buff yourself and save time. This would only apply to professions with buffing abilities Combat/Craftertypes are also shorted.All of thisis besidemy point of freeing up Skill Points. Making entertainer a good second profession choice.
The saved time is the opportunity cost associated with your profession choice. Oh, and PvP has been broken since day 1, don't use it as an excuse to buff-bot. AS I said the excuse for Buff Botting is there are not enough entertainers, and now I can add to that "Some of theliveentertainers seem to think we don't need to be buffed 24/7"
Finally, try answering what I said orginally and not replying with more excuses. I have answered this post line by line.
My post was to argue that the excuses were illogical and incorrect, and so far you have done nothing to disprove what I said. In your opinion you mean.
BHM wrote:
I respect your opinions and your concerns, but you also have to understand that a mind buff is a must with the current combat system...
Then take that up with the devs, and don't use it as an excuse to support buff-botting.
Fragpuppie wrote:
Please do not refer to entertainer buffs as a "right". It is a boon you get from us.
Amen
Message Edited by Akkurscid on 06-23-2004 03:59 AM
Tokaf wrote:
With the coming end of the holo-craze, entertainers will not have to worry about AFK holo-grinders spamming it up in cantinas. True after Publish 10. Between9 and 10 there will be no unlocking of Jedi
The problem will become the buff-bots, who in a time of fewer at-the-keyboard musicians, will become popular. True already
Most people tend to justify the existence of buff bots by saying either
(1) that since the recursive macro exists in SWG, any result of such a system is perfectly legal. I agree a poor argument.
(2) There aren't any live musicians around, This is my concern or
(3) It's only one buff-bot, how can I be affecting all entertainers? I agree poor logic.Each of these responses is flawed in its logic. In your Opinion.
The first assumes that because SOE allows something they encourage it. I agree with this statement, it appears to be true.
It ignores the fact that there are unforeseen outcomes when a game is beta-tested with a small population and that what might not have been a problem in development became one when players have had months to figure out how to make macros. I agree most MMOsrun intothis problem.
For a real world analogy, just because you CAN kill someone doesn't mean you SHOULD. In fact it's illegal.
The second response seems to be the most valid in that there are few live entertainers ever around. My point excatly.
Still, its flaw is that it assumes that it is ok to do something wrong as long as either everyone else does it or that it is means (buff-botting because there are no entertainers at all) to a better end (that end being the customer buffed).Muchof this statement is true. However you are using a truth, toclaimyour own opinion as a fact. Wether or not SOE gets rid of buff bots or not does not mean your opinion can be turned into a fact. For example the "Sky is blue" That is a fact because the "word blue" is the Name of the color of the sky. Not because in your opinion the skylooksblue. If you were color blind and could not see colors of the sky,the sky would still be blue. Just because you can't see it, or it appears to be a different color to you doesn't change the fact it is blue. On the other hand ,if you were color blind to Blue and the sky appeard say green, you can not say the Sky is in factgreen. Just because you perceive it to be so.The same is true with Buff Bots just because you perceive them to be wrong dose notcause them to becomewrong.
We all know the phrase that is used to respond to the former: Would you jump off a bridge if everyone else did? I realize you are saying just because everyone else is doing a wrong thing doesn't mean you should too.
The response to the second seems to be that the ends do not justify the means, but if the favorable end is unattainable without unfavorable means, it's you opinion that Buff botting is unfavorable
does that not point out that the means to attain such an end should be adjusted? If it were true then yes, however you have not yet proved your opinion as a truth.
I.e. our profession needs modification. I agree. I should point out just because I agree your profession should be adjusted doen't mean I support thedoing away with Buff Bots at this time.
The third response also seems perfectly valid, but is maybe the most easily refuted. Actually I think it is Poor logic
If a factory told the EPA that they aren't affecting the whole the country with its toxic waste dumping, and the excuse was taken, it would open up the door for every other factory to do the same, thus leading to toxic dumping all over the country.I agree and it is legally true since it would set a precedent.
For a less practical refuation, take for example Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative. To sum it up, before you do something, think about how society would be affected if everyone else did the same. Nice, but we have already established, in my opinion there is a need for Buff Bots in there current form.I can illustrate too... If everyonein the worldfished with gill nets at the same time, there would be no fish. However as we both know IF fish were takentotally off limits to everyone in the world,there are areas ofin the eastern nationseast that would starve.
In this case, if everyone buff-botted, there would be no need for the entertainer professions and the system of BF and the healing of mind wounds would be abolished. Maybe, however not necessarily
Obviously this would not be a good effect, though some people would care to differ with me. I agree on both accounts.
Hopefully, SOE will see the entertainer point of view on this issue and not cave in to tempting excuses by buff-botters. I hope so too after Stackable Defenses are gone.
Also, please feel free to argue with buff-botters who cling to these excuses and try to show them that it is wrong. Please do, but be warned that other people may have opinions different than yours.
Message Edited by Akkurscid on 06-22-2004 07:51 PM
MusicalDina wrote:
dont you people that use buffbots see that YOU are the reason that you have to go to a buffbot to begin with?
i know it is confusing let me explain.
sure there is a shortage of entertainers. that is caused by mainly3 things:
1. AFKers (buffbots included) take away our business. it is near impossible to make money as an entertainer.
2. 2 things have changed for the year we have had SWG, both things not even really wanted or asked for. buffs provided a money income and were welcomed at first, and droids which helps ents perform. Our number 1 issue, new songs and dances, has been promised to us for over 6 months with nothing.
3. The new players see our profession as the joke it has become not what they should be seeing as the profession it used to be, the profession that most die hard entertainers became entertainers for.
The new players go into a cantina see it empty or full of afk players and say forget this ill go kill things. Other players come in see AFK people get healed by a bot and leave not even knowing how much fun it would be to play a MMO. I was a crafting profession to start. I went into the cantina everyday and ended up just dropping all crafting and going ent because i found it fun. new players dont get that experience, they get what we have now and I know i wouldnt have become an entertainer if i had been new in this POS state.
Using buffbots just promotes further use of the Buffbot and creates an atmosphere where entertainers will disappear in,
What do you do if there is no docs buffing in coronet or theed and you guild doc isnt online? It has happened before it may happen again. what do you do? (this is a hypothetical dont TELL me that it wont happen. There was a time when there wasnt docs all the time everywhere)
The answer to that question is you search one out. Why must it be so that you ALWAYS have to have musician/dancer buffs to the point you must help degenerate this game into a single player game?
A few more hypotheticals to help bring a light (hopefully) onto why NOT to use a buffbot.
1. What if there was a way to macro AFK jedi hunting (i know itd never happen but) and people flocked to your profession to get the easy 150k, thus makign it so you an ATK BH could never complete your mission because they always finish it first. They can do it 24/7 and dont have to stop for potty breaks or to eat or sleep. Thus their ruthless efficiency pretty much keeps jedi off the terminals and really gives you no chance to complete a mission.
2. What if there was a way to macro (ingame) crafting and everything crafted was same quality. The AFK doesnt factor his time into the prices, just cost.An ATK crafter couldnt keep up with a AFK guy since he is always crafting, always restocking and the like. The ATK makes noprofit on it since he actually has to invest time into it. (BTW any master ent's buffs are basically the same. a buffbot can do it just as good if not better than an ATK guy and most of them since they do not personally commit time tothe char dont charge or charge small amounts. Thus making the ATK guys having to charge same amount making their time basically useless and cant compete)
3.Your profession is basically a treasure hunter type. You sell/trade looted items that crafters need/want and they typically pay good money for it. Now you go to the place to get the good loot but there is tons of AFK bots there killing, outdamaging everybody, and looting it giving you NO chance of getting the loot. They then turn around andeither give it away or sell it cheap since they invest nothing into it.
--------------------------
point being we are undercut by buffbots because 1. their mains or sleeping people dont care if they make money or not, they are there typically for the main to be able to get buffed. 2. the people that go get buffs from buffbots dont go find real ents thus not giving real people business. 3. they have crowded our biggest marketplace for new players (to recruit to our profession) and for customers, the cantinas of theed and coronet, they make the place a general discomforting place. Theycrowd the area and make it hard for ATK to get customers.
hope this helps shed a light ?
You have many good points.
I don't have a problem with going to a live entertainer to get buffed. Actually I prefer it.
After the last holoentertainer is gone, maybe I can get buffed without having to put alot of effort into trying to track down dancers/musicians for buffs.
You must understand the demand is so great if you get rid of ths Macros that allow it. People will just find another work around. Including third party software (which is illegal I know) Because people will still have a greatneed for the buffing. At that time I will probably have to quit being a Bounty Hunter and become something else. (because I don't like to cheat)
Until that time is upon us, there is a demand and need for the bots.
However If it makes you feel better, I will always go into the cantina in Coronet and ask if there are any live entertainers mind buffing before heading to the guy with the Buff Bot.
Message Edited by Akkurscid on 06-23-2004 04:33 AM