CUEmu - Thread Posts

Xyrdre

Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:30 am

I'd still love to know why many ofthese pro-buffbot players cry incessantly if there isn't a buffbot parked in every cantina, inevery corner of the galaxy, wherever they feel like being at any point in time 24/7, but they have no problem at all going to where the docs are in Coronet and Theed to get their doc buffs?

If these same players aren't plaguing the doc boards calling them useless because there isn't a doc right there, where they want them, at all hours of all days, in every possible remote location, or whining to give them free buffs... then I think we see some clear evidence of discrimination against entertainers in particular.

Docs and dancers/musicians have very similar roles when buffing. I just don't hear the complaints that the docs are mostly crowded together in a handful of locations. Is this just a reaction on the part of many players against the "social professions", as they cannot understand a different style of gameplay?

Now, I have absolutely nothing against the docs... this is not a thought to try to cause them any grief at all. I'm just trying to point out that entertainers really do seem to be held to some kind of standard that differs greatlythan other service providers, and I think unfairly so.

Now... why do you think this is?

Deila Karlossi , Blue Glowie of Dancers, and become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...

DarkY0da

Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:45 am

#15

What is this crap about buffbots being able to buff better then ATK entertainers ? The only way that should ever happen is when they manage to buy the freaking +25 buff tapes. And one of these days maybe I'll be able to get some of that and then... then I will really really rock.

Oh-Orb Rizo Twi'lek
Just hanging out... watching with interest what changes do or don't happen.

I support the NDE. (New Drygo Experience)
Server Pop Snap-Shot Feb. 06 link

Cudayn

Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:14 am

#16

Akkurscid,

As you have witnessed, and agreed with us, Buff Bots are a very bad thing. They are not however neccessary, they are just conveinent. The holo-grind is what put the entertainers almost totally out of business and have made most entertainers feel like not even playing the game.

We walk into a cantina andimmediately get spammed with macrobabble, and its hard to be a performer under those conditions. A lot of the entertainers have moved into private cantinas and rightfully so, but a few are still hanging out in the public cantinas, hoping for a bit of that old magic.

The nexttwo publishes will elliminate the holo-grind (Thank Goodness), andI personally think it will take a few months, but it should return the cantinas back to the live entertainers. But I am sure we are in for a very hardship filled turn around time as we will still need to lessen the amount of AFKer still in the cantinas "grinding away" because for some, thats the only way they know how to "play".

Hopefully, if nothing is done about theBuff Bots, then at least they will take them and stash them in tents, etc, like the one you frequent and I can hopefully have a returning of customers, because thanks to AFKers and the Buff Bots, we are are "maybe" one step above an NPC as perceived by the general populace.

There has been nothing said in all these posts that have not been said before and we are, IMHO "beating a dead horse". We keep going in circles here, chasing our tails, and arguing with each other about whats right and whats wrong. Well the Buff bots are wrong. We all agree. The AFK macroers are doing what the game allows them to do, frankly, so are the Buff Botters, however the AFKer is not taking money out of my pocket which is filled with 3600 credits at the moment.

I sincerly wish that one of the Devs would just pop in here and give us a mini State of the Entertainer Profession letter. Or just say, we are hopeful that the players themselves can turn the profession around once the Holo-grind has concluded. As it is, they really appear to be taking a hide and see what happens approach which to me, further alienates the customer base and makes for a lot of unhappy people writing angry posts, which itself is not good for the new members of the community.

SWG is still, perhaps the single greatest MMORPG thatI have ever played, and I have played almost every single one of them, and I am sure that I shall continue to play for years to come, if we can just have addressed a few items that we all agree need some attention.

Yours Truely

Durney Kova

Master Entertainer / Master Musician / master image Designer / Novice Dancer

Gotta love typos

Message Edited by Cudayn on 06-23-2004 10:23 AM

Message Edited by Cudayn on 06-23-2004 12:05 PM

MusicalDina

Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:38 pm

#17

dont you people that use buffbots see that YOU are the reason that you have to go to a buffbot to begin with?

i know it is confusing let me explain.

sure there is a shortage of entertainers. that is caused by mainly3 things:

1. AFKers (buffbots included) take away our business. it is near impossible to make money as an entertainer.

2. 2 things have changed for the year we have had SWG, both things not even really wanted or asked for. buffs provided a money income and were welcomed at first, and droids which helps ents perform. Our number 1 issue, new songs and dances, has been promised to us for over 6 months with nothing.

3. The new players see our profession as the joke it has become not what they should be seeing as the profession it used to be, the profession that most die hard entertainers became entertainers for.

The new players go into a cantina see it empty or full of afk players and say forget this ill go kill things. Other players come in see AFK people get healed by a bot and leave not even knowing how much fun it would be to play a MMO. I was a crafting profession to start. I went into the cantina everyday and ended up just dropping all crafting and going ent because i found it fun. new players dont get that experience, they get what we have now and I know i wouldnt have become an entertainer if i had been new in this POS state.

Using buffbots just promotes further use of the Buffbot and creates an atmosphere where entertainers will disappear in,

What do you do if there is no docs buffing in coronet or theed and you guild doc isnt online? It has happened before it may happen again. what do you do? (this is a hypothetical dont TELL me that it wont happen. There was a time when there wasnt docs all the time everywhere)

The answer to that question is you search one out. Why must it be so that you ALWAYS have to have musician/dancer buffs to the point you must help degenerate this game into a single player game?

A few more hypotheticals to help bring a light (hopefully) onto why NOT to use a buffbot.

1. What if there was a way to macro AFK jedi hunting (i know itd never happen but) and people flocked to your profession to get the easy 150k, thus makign it so you an ATK BH could never complete your mission because they always finish it first. They can do it 24/7 and dont have to stop for potty breaks or to eat or sleep. Thus their ruthless efficiency pretty much keeps jedi off the terminals and really gives you no chance to complete a mission.

2. What if there was a way to macro (ingame) crafting and everything crafted was same quality. The AFK doesnt factor his time into the prices, just cost.An ATK crafter couldnt keep up with a AFK guy since he is always crafting, always restocking and the like. The ATK makes noprofit on it since he actually has to invest time into it. (BTW any master ent's buffs are basically the same. a buffbot can do it just as good if not better than an ATK guy and most of them since they do not personally commit time tothe char dont charge or charge small amounts. Thus making the ATK guys having to charge same amount making their time basically useless and cant compete)

3.Your profession is basically a treasure hunter type. You sell/trade looted items that crafters need/want and they typically pay good money for it. Now you go to the place to get the good loot but there is tons of AFK bots there killing, outdamaging everybody, and looting it giving you NO chance of getting the loot. They then turn around andeither give it away or sell it cheap since they invest nothing into it.

--------------------------

point being we are undercut by buffbots because 1. their mains or sleeping people dont care if they make money or not, they are there typically for the main to be able to get buffed. 2. the people that go get buffs from buffbots dont go find real ents thus not giving real people business. 3. they have crowded our biggest marketplace for new players (to recruit to our profession) and for customers, the cantinas of theed and coronet, they make the place a general discomforting place. Theycrowd the area and make it hard for ATK to get customers.

hope this helps shed a light ?

DinaJa Erso
Master Doctor
Master Musician

MusicalDina

Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:34 pm

#18

darkyoda their buffs are not better than ours. in fact, if you ahve +25 tapes and they have +25 tapes then the buffs are exactly the same.

the thing is the buffbots can do it better since they can do it for free, are on near 24/7, and always available to buff. live entertainers are not and thus why buffbots can buff better than us.

just because it is convenient doesnt make it right. entertainers cannot be next to the docs at the starports, as we cannot buff/heal anywhere but cantina or hotel in the city. So there you have to come in you yell if there is anybody buffing, but it is extremely hard to see through all that spam.

DinaJa Erso
Master Doctor
Master Musician

Tokaf

Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:11 pm

#19

Akkurscid wrote:
Ah, I decided to go line by line with yourfirst postanyway, otherwise you would probablyjust say I never did it.

Tokaf wrote:
With the coming end of the holo-craze, entertainers will not have to worry about AFK holo-grinders spamming it up in cantinas. True after Publish 10. Between9 and 10 there will be no unlocking of Jedi
The problem will become the buff-bots, who in a time of fewer at-the-keyboard musicians, will become popular. True already
Most people tend to justify the existence of buff bots by saying either
(1) that since the recursive macro exists in SWG, any result of such a system is perfectly legal. I agree a poor argument.
(2) There aren't any live musicians around, This is my concern or
(3) It's only one buff-bot, how can I be affecting all entertainers? I agree poor logic.Each of these responses is flawed in its logic. In your Opinion.

The first assumes that because SOE allows something they encourage it. I agree with this statement, it appears to be true.
It ignores the fact that there are unforeseen outcomes when a game is beta-tested with a small population and that what might not have been a problem in development became one when players have had months to figure out how to make macros. I agree most MMOsrun intothis problem.
For a real world analogy, just because you CAN kill someone doesn't mean you SHOULD. In fact it's illegal.

The second response seems to be the most valid in that there are few live entertainers ever around. My point excatly.
Still, its flaw is that it assumes that it is ok to do something wrong as long as either everyone else does it or that it is means (buff-botting because there are no entertainers at all) to a better end (that end being the customer buffed).Muchof this statement is true. However you are using a truth, toclaimyour own opinion as a fact. Wether or not SOE gets rid of buff bots or not does not mean your opinion can be turned into a fact. For example the "Sky is blue" That is a fact because the "word blue" is the Name of the color of the sky. Not because in your opinion the skylooksblue. If you were color blind and could not see colors of the sky,the sky would still be blue. Just because you can't see it, or it appears to be a different color to you doesn't change the fact it is blue. On the other hand ,if you were color blind to Blue and the sky appeard say green, you can not say the Sky is in factgreen. Just because you perceive it to be so.The same is true with Buff Bots just because you perceive them to be wrong dose notcause them to becomewrong.
We all know the phrase that is used to respond to the former: Would you jump off a bridge if everyone else did? I realize you are saying just because everyone else is doing a wrong thing doesn't mean you should too.
The response to the second seems to be that the ends do not justify the means, but if the favorable end is unattainable without unfavorable means, it's you opinion that Buff botting is unfavorable
does that not point out that the means to attain such an end should be adjusted? If it were true then yes, however you have not yet proved your opinion as a truth.
I.e. our profession needs modification. I agree. I should point out just because I agree your profession should be adjusted doen't mean I support thedoing away with Buff Bots at this time.

The third response also seems perfectly valid, but is maybe the most easily refuted. Actually I think it is Poor logic
If a factory told the EPA that they aren't affecting the whole the country with its toxic waste dumping, and the excuse was taken, it would open up the door for every other factory to do the same, thus leading to toxic dumping all over the country.I agree and it is legally true since it would set a precedent.
For a less practical refuation, take for example Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative. To sum it up, before you do something, think about how society would be affected if everyone else did the same. Nice, but we have already established, in my opinion there is a need for Buff Bots in there current form.I can illustrate too... If everyonein the worldfished with gill nets at the same time, there would be no fish. However as we both know IF fish were takentotally off limits to everyone in the world,there are areas ofin the eastern nationseast that would starve.
In this case, if everyone buff-botted, there would be no need for the entertainer professions and the system of BF and the healing of mind wounds would be abolished. Maybe, however not necessarily
Obviously this would not be a good effect, though some people would care to differ with me. I agree on both accounts.

Hopefully, SOE will see the entertainer point of view on this issue and not cave in to tempting excuses by buff-botters. I hope so too after Stackable Defenses are gone.
Also, please feel free to argue with buff-botters who cling to these excuses and try to show them that it is wrong. Please do, but be warned that other people may have opinions different than yours.

Message Edited by Akkurscid on 06-22-2004 07:51 PM

Ok, I'll start from the beginning...

Your answer where you talk about the sky being blue seems logically sound..but first, you say that the sky is blue is a fact BECAUSE blue is the name of the color of the sky? While everyone's concept of "blueness" is the same, you cannot prove that you see it exactly the same as I do. And furthermore, you hurt yourself when you talk about how the sky is still blue to a color-blind person (although I think most people are red-green color-blind), because I can turn your arguement right back around at you. By your definition of a fact, it is a fact because most people think that (hence the sky being blue thing). Your statement that I shouldn't call buff-bots wrong because its only my perception is pompous on your part. By that logic, you can't call it right just because of your perception. Indeed, you seem to be muddying the waters saying that nothing can be proven fact that is my opinion if you differ from me. A fact is not a fact because everyone agress. A fact is by nature a fact, it can never be questioned. And indeed, its easy to say that all things are relative, and that there are no absolutes, but in the context of a GAME where all aspects can be controlled, things are different. Sony sets up moral absolutes when it bans 3rd party macro programs. Does Sony have to define everything to you to make it a fact? Use a little reasoning here, don't just tell me that since you don't agree that it's an opinion. Buff-botting hurts entertainers. Just because it doesn't hurt you and other combat professions doesn't make it less important. Also, you accept your stat stacking issue as a fact, but anything you disagree with me on is automatically my opinion. If you disagreed with me when I said that robbing a bank was wrong, would say it was an opinion?

Your fish catching arguement also seems lucid... the problem is you act like that banning buff-bots would mean NO buffs at all (or no fish at all in your example). I'm sorry, but there are ATK musicians and dancers who would be able to buff you. Also, in the current global economy, people would not starve immediately because of no fish. Eastern Asian nations have supermarkets too you know... they don't buy everything fresh out of the fields. Thus, a fish shortage doesn't kill them, because they can eat beef from Texas. Also, you make the assumption that because everyone throws out their nets, they all catch something. Oh and uhh... even if every single human on earth caught 1 fish, there would be plenty left to spare.

Finally, in your other post you seem to think that my saying that you are not always entitled to a buff hurts my arguement. Sorry, but you aren't always entitles to a buff. You CAN (keyword) play without buffs. You don't WANT to. Can and want are different. And the Jedi arguement is... rather pathetic. Just because MBH are too weak via nerfs to take on Jedi does not give you the right to say that you deserve a buff all the time so you can kill the Jedi. Frankly, no one in this game DESERVES anything. You earn what you get by money, not by taking the easy way out and listening to a free buff bot. Stop telling us that you (and other customers) DESERVE buffs and heals, and realize that we are in a (voluntary) service profession, not someone you can order around like a slave. Your attitude needs adjusting when it comes to your view of entertainers. Your last post maybe shows this the best. We need to be at the starport by all the docs for your conveniance? **edit** off. Our profession is not governed by what you consider conveniance. In fact, you seem to only care about what is in your best interest and what isn't in ours. If you don't like having more than the minimum downtime possble maybe MMORPGs aren't for you?

One last thing... by your logic, since I disagree with some of what you said, it's opinion, thus you HAVE to prove it me to make it fact... I pay $15 just like you to play this game. My "opinion" is worth just as much as yours by that account.

/sarcasm
/rant

JohnMarble

Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:49 pm

#20

Akkurscid wrote:

Docs would be automated if they could be done so in a reliable way. Just like the the current entertainer Buff Bots.

But they can be, and are. The difference is, there is a cost involved, so you don't see these guys parked out in public giving the service away. (There was some guy who came in here claiming that doctor buffbots do this on his server, but I know he was lying.) Thedoc buffbots will go in their private medical centers and charge an entrance fee. I would have no problem at all if entertainers did this, charged you to enter their cantinas. But they don't, instead choosing to completely devalue my source of income.

I saw some guy at the bank begging for credits today. I asked him if he was an entertainer. They've taken the panhandler style of gameplay and createdprofessions around it!

XeroAnarian

Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:43 pm

#21

Tokaf wrote:
Finally, in your other post you seem to think that my saying that you are not always entitled to a buff hurts my arguement. Sorry, but you aren't always entitles to a buff. You CAN (keyword) play without buffs. You don't WANT to. Can and want are different. And the Jedi arguement is... rather pathetic. Just because MBH are too weak via nerfs to take on Jedi does not give you the right to say that you deserve a buff all the time so you can kill the Jedi. Frankly, no one in this game DESERVES anything. You earn what you get by money, not by taking the easy way out and listening to a free buff bot. Stop telling us that you (and other customers) DESERVE buffs and heals, and realize that we are in a (voluntary) service profession, not someone you can order around like a slave. Your attitude needs adjusting when it comes to your view of entertainers. Your last post maybe shows this the best. We need to be at the starport by all the docs for your conveniance? **edit** off. Our profession is not governed by what you consider conveniance. In fact, you seem to only care about what is in your best interest and what isn't in ours. If you don't like having more than the minimum downtime possble maybe MMORPGs aren't for you?

Exactly right. People think that the Entertainer profession is there to serve the other professions. That's partially true- We do heal people. But it's voluntary. We're not here to heal you at every moment you need us to. We're doing this because we want to. If someone asks me for a buff, generally I'll say sure, and do it with a smile, FOR FREE! But if I have something more important to do, I'll politely decline their request. I don't come running when someone needs a buff, and nobody should. We aren't butlers. We're just people who like to entertain, and want to ENTERTAIN!

X'ero Anarian
Elder Swordsman
Elder Pikeman
Spy Extraordinare

Drygo

Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:07 pm

#22

Akkurscid wrote:

DIsagree...

There are never enough live entertainers around. I go to the same Bot everyday. If you take my Bot away, (It's not reallymy character,but you know whatI mean) are you going to stay, online around the clock, on the same planet, andin the same city/cantina everyday?

If the answer is NO then you prove the point of why we need Buff bots.

The solution is get rid of stackable defenses which would make it so Single Combat Profession Templatesare just as "tough" as Mutiple Combat Profession Templates. Thiswould allowmore people to have "Entertainer" as part of their profession template, and that would alleviate some of the Entertainer shortage.

The same applies to the AFK crafter types.

Do you have any idea how long I went around searching tonight for Accaragm on one of my avatars? And, how long I went around searching for a swoop bike on another of my characters? I didn't get it immediately. I probably spent several hours doing so. The other professions often don't satisfy my needs and wants immediately. I see no reason why entertainer services should be any different. Just like with every other profession, if you can't find it when you need it, you would have to wait or go without. That's what I do. And, I don't go around asking for accaragm bots or swoop bots to be available (or any other bot for that matter) whenver I need it. Because the truth is, I don't *need* it. You don't *need* the mind buff. You just want it. Just like I wanted those things I had to go around searching for today.

Oh, and don't even ask me how many days I went around searching for the right dining room set for my house...

- I support hawtpants

Cudayn

Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:16 pm

#23

Drygo wrote:

Oh, and don't even ask me how many days I went around searching for the right dining room set for my house...

So true, its so painfully true. Why are there so few really good furniture specialized Architects?

Durney Kova

Master Entertainer / Master Musician / Master Image Designer / Novice Dancer

Tokaf

Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:31 pm

#24

By the way akkursced, I never claimed any of this post as fact, you saw it that way. Do I have to say "IMO" before everything? Anyway, you still haven't refuted my arguements...

Akkurscid

Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:14 am

#25

Drygo wrote:

Akkurscid wrote:

DIsagree...

There are never enough live entertainers around. I go to the same Bot everyday. If you take my Bot away, (It's not reallymy character,but you know whatI mean) are you going to stay, online around the clock, on the same planet, andin the same city/cantina everyday?

If the answer is NO then you prove the point of why we need Buff bots.

The solution is get rid of stackable defenses which would make it so Single Combat Profession Templatesare just as "tough" as Mutiple Combat Profession Templates. Thiswould allowmore people to have "Entertainer" as part of their profession template, and that would alleviate some of the Entertainer shortage.

The same applies to the AFK crafter types.

Do you have any idea how long I went around searching tonight for Accaragm on one of my avatars? And, how long I went around searching for a swoop bike on another of my characters? I didn't get it immediately. I probably spent several hours doing so. The other professions often don't satisfy my needs and wants immediately. I see no reason why entertainer services should be any different. Just like with every other profession, if you can't find it when you need it, you would have to wait or go without. That's what I do. And, I don't go around asking for accaragm bots or swoop bots to be available (or any other bot for that matter) whenver I need it. Because the truth is, I don't *need* it. You don't *need* the mind buff. You just want it. Just like I wanted those things I had to go around searching for today.

Oh, and don't even ask me how many days I went around searching for the right dining room set for my house...

I have one question for you,... Did you buy your stufffrom a vender?

Tokaf wrote:
By the way akkursced, I never claimed any of this post as fact, you saw it that way. No you areusing them that way.

Do I have to say "IMO" before everything? Use it from time to time. I think you would be suprised to see how often you would have to say it to remain intelectually honest.

Additionally it would be nice if you broke up you posts with "actual facts" and public opinions rather than just basing your whole presentation on some intial personal view.

Anyway, you still haven't refuted my arguements... Yes I have. I challenged them. The problem is most of what you say is a personal opinion. I don't control your opinions so I can't really be expected to satisfactorily argue against them.

How can I argue against you that your favorite color is say green? "Tokaf's favorite color is green and I have proof?" Thats why I have to interject how often you are using a personalopinion rather than a fact or generally accpeted public opinion.

On top of that you are the type who will not admit when you agree with me, this is intellectual dishonesty.

If I have a good point, say I can see your point. If a concern is valid, don't just say "your point is invalid"

Example: I have read in many parts of these entertainer forums how entertainers are leaving in droves haven't you? So how is my point of "not enough entertainers" Invalid when your own community is saying the exact same thing? Explain please.

Message Edited by Akkurscid on 06-24-2004 02:05 AM

Akkurscid

Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:24 am

#26

Cudayn wrote:

Akkurscid,

As you have witnessed, and agreed with us, Buff Bots are a very bad thing. They are not however neccessary, they are just conveinent. The holo-grind is what put the entertainers almost totally out of business and have made most entertainers feel like not even playing the game.

We walk into a cantina andimmediately get spammed with macrobabble, and its hard to be a performer under those conditions. A lot of the entertainers have moved into private cantinas and rightfully so, but a few are still hanging out in the public cantinas, hoping for a bit of that old magic.

The nexttwo publishes will elliminate the holo-grind (Thank Goodness), andI personally think it will take a few months, but it should return the cantinas back to the live entertainers. But I am sure we are in for a very hardship filled turn around time as we will still need to lessen the amount of AFKer still in the cantinas "grinding away" because for some, thats the only way they know how to "play".

Hopefully, if nothing is done about theBuff Bots, then at least they will take them and stash them in tents, etc, like the one you frequent and I can hopefully have a returning of customers, because thanks to AFKers and the Buff Bots, we are are "maybe" one step above an NPC as perceived by the general populace.

There has been nothing said in all these posts that have not been said before and we are, IMHO "beating a dead horse". We keep going in circles here, chasing our tails, and arguing with each other about whats right and whats wrong. Well the Buff bots are wrong. We all agree. The AFK macroers are doing what the game allows them to do, frankly, so are the Buff Botters, however the AFKer is not taking money out of my pocket which is filled with 3600 credits at the moment.

I sincerly wish that one of the Devs would just pop in here and give us a mini State of the Entertainer Profession letter. Or just say, we are hopeful that the players themselves can turn the profession around once the Holo-grind has concluded. As it is, they really appear to be taking a hide and see what happens approach which to me, further alienates the customer base and makes for a lot of unhappy people writing angry posts, which itself is not good for the new members of the community.

SWG is still, perhaps the single greatest MMORPG thatI have ever played, and I have played almost every single one of them, and I am sure that I shall continue to play for years to come, if we can just have addressed a few items that we all agree need some attention.

Yours Truely

Durney Kova

Master Entertainer / Master Musician / master image Designer / Novice Dancer

Gotta love typos

Message Edited by Cudayn on 06-23-2004 10:23 AM

Message Edited by Cudayn on 06-23-2004 12:05 PM

With the exception of necessity, we are in total agreement.

As for beating a dead a horse... after tonight I will PM those who ask with all my spam.

Message Edited by Akkurscid on 06-24-2004 02:26 AM

Musician Archive

Thread: My response to the common justifications of buff-bots