Musician Archive
Thread: Entertainment money making ideas review: (crossposted)
Cross-posting this from the General Discussion board:
I just wanted to rate some of the ideas expressed here on a scale of 1-10 with explanations why I rate them that way.
Idea #1: "Entertainment Vending-Machine"
This is the idea, that when someone clicks /watch or /listen, a window pops up with the pre-set "rate" on that performer's services, which can be accepted or rejected.
I am passionately against this idea, because:
- It cheapens the profession, reducing it to being all about the healing and the money, and nothing else.
- Customers wouldn't tip much, if at all, because they'd feel that they're already paying for the service. Therefore, it doesn't reward positive social interaction and good roleplay, which is currently rewarded in the form of /tips.
Why not just let droid engineers make dancing/playing droids, installed with convenient coin-slots? I am not a wind up doll.
My rating: 1
Idea #2: Cover charge
Charging an upfront fee to enter the cantina which gets split among the entertainers.
Although this seems like a popular idea, it's not a very good one for several reasons:
- Long-term AFK Macro Entertainers (LAMErs) don't deserve a cut.
- You shouldn't restrict access to the cantina, in case people need to meet business clients, buy a Jawa beer, etc...
- Difficult to program, especially in such a way as to make it fair.
- People would be less inclined to /tip, feeling that they were already paying for the service.
- It is an indirect extension of the Entertainment Vending Machine in #1 above.
Otherwise, it's a fine idea for private cantinas... along with the ability to "bounce" rude or troublesome clients.
But that already exists.
My rating: 3
Idea #3: Deny Service
The abilityof an entertainer not to heal someone's BF or mind wounds on a case by case basis.
Not a terrible idea, but it has its problems:
- It's not realistic. If I can hear a musician, I can enjoy the music. If I can see a dancer, I can enjoy the show.
- It creates the abilityforEntertainers to become Entertainment Vending Machines as in #1 above, which I am dead-set against.However, this is hopefully balanced by the large number of entertainers who would only use it to block out griefing customers. Still, enough entertainers would set up as "play for pay" that it would add resentment against the profession as a whole.
- How would you implement it at a group level? Can anyone in the group choose to /denyservice on a customer, and thereby deny the services of the entire group? Or would it only be that portion of the healing provided by that one performer's actions? If the former, then that leads to group problems. If the latter, then will it really stop the griefing? I doubt it.
My rating: 4
Idea #4: Focus Performance
The opposite of Deny Service. Reduce the benefits of entertainment healing across the boardfor people who are /watch-ing or /listen-ing passively. Add a way to make it a two-way interaction for enhanced healing.
Two ways of doing this are:
- Add a /focus type command for dancers. Those who are being /focus-ed will get a healing boost.
- OR simply give the /flourish command a target.(i.e. /flourish 1 %TT) Those who are targeted by the flourish get a healing boost for the duration of that flourish OR until the performertargetssomeone else.
The reasons I like this:
- It's realistic (for dancers at least). Tip a dancer, and she pays more attention to you. The more attention, the more "entertaining" it is for the customer.
- Though it's not quite as realistic for musicians... it still approximates the idea of the "tip-jar" for musicians, who often take requests from tippers. (thinking of Billy Joel's Piano Man song)
- It discouragesLAMErs. I don't think there isa way to macro changing the target is there? (without 3rd party utilities, which are verboten).
- Griefers and non-tippers will still get their healing, but more slowly.
My rating: 8... but to make it a 10... add the following feature:
I just found out about the mind boosting abilities of performers. Make it so that mind-boost is impossible without this entertainer focus. Healing can be free, albeit slow... but mind boosting is a "premium service". Plus, since mind-boosting takes time to build up, it will take the long-term attentions of aperformer to max it out. This makes the dancer's time more valuable, and people will tip well for it.
This last idea is the best one yet, especially,IMHO, withmy additional feature. Anyone care to dispute it?
Lorilei Celestri
Apprentice Dancer
Chilastra
I don't mean to start a Flame War by posting here, But i make a trip once a week to the cantina(or more, if i need it, which is rare)
I understand that In general, Musicians and performers(whichever you prefer to be called) Expect and deserve a tip...But, Now, this is just me, But i think that maybe the game is being a little *Too* Community-Based by forcing us to sit and watch/listen to someone for a bit to heal ourselves of damage.
I'm NOT coming back here to check on this message, since i know that there are Flame people out there, but isn't it going a little Too far ?
I'm all for Communities - don't get me wrong, i'm from Ultima Online where there is no community, But Like the Armorsmith Class, you need to know everyone of almost every other profession to prosper in the skill.
You can't honestly expect people to be *Happy* to pay a tip for something that the game forces them to do..
Lorilei wrote:
Idea #1: "Entertainment Vending-Machine"
This is the idea, that when someone clicks /watch or /listen, a window pops up with the pre-set "rate" on that performer's services, which can be accepted or rejected.
I am passionately against this idea, because:
- It cheapens the profession, reducing it to being all about the healing and the money, and nothing else.
- Customers wouldn't tip much, if at all, because they'd feel that they're already paying for the service. Therefore, it doesn't reward positive social interaction and good roleplay, which is currently rewarded in the form of /tips.
Why not just let droid engineers make dancing/playing droids, installed with convenient coin-slots? I am not a wind up doll.
My rating: 1
Sorry, but I think this is the best way to go. You talk about cheapening the profession, but a profession is about making *money*. Working at a pay rate of one's choosing != being a wind-up doll.
Later in your post you say of a possible "deny service" ability, "If I can hear a musician, I can enjoy the music". While this is true, one rarely listens to a performing musician for no charge. One generally only hears a performing musician upon paying money, from a concert venue where one buys a ticket to a cocktail lounge where one is buying drinks.
One major way in which the service professions are broken in that we medics and entertainers cannot compel people to pay forour services,thereby making our services public goods.* A craftsman is free to place any price he chooses on the goods he provides. Why should we not be able to do the same? In real life, it is generally rather difficult to undergo a surgical procedure and then flat out refuse to pay. Why should it be any different with the docs in the med center?
*this is an economic term meaning something that may be consumed by many people without depletion, and it is difficult to identify those who will not pay and prevent them from using the good/service. A lighthouse is an example of a public good.
Personally, I'm glad that /denyservice is coming first. I'm not even sure we'll need anything else yet, so I'm willing to give it a bit of time to see how it affects the community.
Putting fees on the Cantina is nice, but who gets the money? All players? All players not flagged AFK? The person who registered it on the planet map? The highest "level" entertainer? Unless it's a private venue, there's no way to balance this really. Someone's gonna get shafted, either accidentally or not.
Private rooms in Cantinas could work well, but they'd have toimplement the tools toprivatize internal sub segments of structures first 
I like the concept, particularly because it promotes friendly competition. As a fighter, you can choose the band of 20 pickup group playing Rock or hit the private room of an all MM band playing their own music.
Vending machines? Nah. Personally, that just penalizes people. I can't vouch for everyone, but I personally didn't become aMusician because I can heal Mind Wound and Battle Fatigue. If that were the case, I'd have not done anything more than pay the 100cr and 15 skill points.
/denyservice will compel competition, but it's not a money maker I don't think. There's two big issues I see:
- t's like person A offering to train for free vs person B offering to do so for a fee. People will lean towards A given the choice.
- Every jerk denyed has simply to find some AFK auto looper macroer.
If ./denyservice came with the removal of /ui action toolbarSlot, that'd be a huge step in the right direction. I don't have a problem with AFK macroing, as I've mentioned many times, but I think it's got an expiration date given SOE and Holocron's history in the matter.
To Flash:
No flames are necessary. Many people view this aspect of the game that way. Mostly, it's powergamers who don't like role-play.Anything that slows them down in their quest for faster xp and faster money is a waste of time, so sitting in the cantina is a waste of time.
Some people even hate entertainers irrationally, because they misdirect their frustrations about this part of the game at those who benefit from it. That's just immature.
But while I do understand the way you feel about it, Flash, or I can at least accept it... those of us who love the entertainer professions desperately want to make those minutes you spend with us more enjoyable. If it's a necessity, why not make it a more pleasant one?
That's what this is all about.
To Tanizaki:
I couldn't disagree with you more. If you want to make money in this game, EARN it by becoming a resource miner, a weaponsmith, or an architect. EARN it by hunting and harvesting hides.
And yes, EARN it by being social with your customers at the cantina.
Please don't mix the medical services issue. It's a different kind of profession that needs its own solutions. (Though I agree that heal for pay should be made easier to accomplish).
However, leaving your wind-up doll accepting coins into her slot, as she dances the night away, while you work or sleep is NOT earning money.
And not all professions are about making money. Be an artisan if making money is what's really important to you. People take up a weapons skill to FIGHT. Making money is secondary. People take up Scouting skills partially to survive (but mostly as a prerequisite to BH and CH, these days, sadly). But yes, you can make money with scouting skills, too. People take up Medic to HEAL, and then hope that they can make good money at it (selling pharmaceuticals or getting paid for healing services).
People take up Entertaining... what? to make money? PLEASE!
Lorilei
Darniaq:
I agree that we should see how /denyservice works.
However, it should be understood that /denyservice was never intended to be a way to help entertainers make money. In fact, it will be an abuse of the command if entertainers use it that way. Some people use the term "griefing" to describe what some entertainers will do with that command, but that's going to far.
The /denyservice command is being put in at the request... primarily of dancers... to have a way to prevent people who harrass them from benefitting from their services.
If a guy comes in /licking and /kissing me, making lewd comments in public, and obscene comments in private /tells... yes, I can /addignore him. However, so long as I'm dancing, he's getting healed by me. THAT is a slap in the face. So yes, we should be able to /denyservice to those who act this way. And to my performance group ---"/gsay please put JerkOff on /denyservice everyone. He just told me he'd like to rape me."
THAT'S what /denyservice is all about.
Lorilei
I'm not a powergamer (although my friends think otherwise)
And while i don't feel that sitting in the Cantina is a waste of time(i craft while i'm there)
I do feel that it's a little arrogant for performers/musicians to assume that they deserve Money. I don't mind paying, but Like someone else said...you didn't become a performer to make money.
I don't *Just* Craft...I have to harvest resources and such to make money as well. You can't simply rely on one profession to make you money, so if your waiting for someone to give you $10,000 out of the kindness of your heart...Don't hold your breath.
/denyservice just sounds like an excuse to force people to pay you. THAT is what i'm worried about.
As it is, its hard enough to find a musician-type person on Kettemoore in any Cantina...But if they're given the choice to deny service to anyone....i think that this is a form of blackmail, and thats what troubles me.
Personally, I think that the only thing that should be changed for us is to have higher paying entertainer missions, cause right now its just ridiculous. If they could also have some type of status or something to help with them, that as well would be nice. I like the /deny command, simply because someone who can't listen to the music is more likely to leave (goodbye annoying people). As for the pay cantinas, I do not like that idea at all, you can do it in private cantina's, which is how it should be. There are alot of new players, that might not be able to afford getting into the cantina, and thats not fair to them.
As of right now, I still have never had to worry about money, so I'm not entirely sure why everyone thinks we need more money making opportunities. I don't have any combat skills, nor do I do the entertainers missions (the payout is to low for the trouble, if it was higher, then maybe). I survive completely off of tips, and I also spend a great deal of money on resources to construct intruments for new musicians.
I've noticed the key to making money for our professions is 1. Don't beg for tips, you'll get squat if you do. 2. Be at the keyboard, alot of people don't tip AFK musicians. 3. Be friendly, be personable, be an entertainer.
Just today alone I recieved a 50k tip, thats the biggest tip I've ever got, but I got it from saying hello, talking to people, thanking them for just clapping for me. So, NO PAY CANTINAS, NO PAY FOR LISTEN. Those ideas are silly, and would utterly ruin the proffesion. If they are implented, I will find someway to play for free, and never charge. All we need is higher paying entertainer missions.
Lorilei wrote:
To Tanizaki:
I couldn't disagree with you more. If you want to make money in this game, EARN it by becoming a resource miner, a weaponsmith, or an architect. EARN it by hunting and harvesting hides.
And yes, EARN it by being social with your customers at the cantina.
Please don't mix the medical services issue. It's a different kind of profession that needs its own solutions. (Though I agree that heal for pay should be made easier to accomplish).
However, leaving your wind-up doll accepting coins into her slot, as she dances the night away, while you work or sleep is NOT earning money.
And not all professions are about making money. Be an artisan if making money is what's really important to you. People take up a weapons skill to FIGHT. Making money is secondary. People take up Scouting skills partially to survive (but mostly as a prerequisite to BH and CH, these days, sadly). But yes, you can make money with scouting skills, too. People take up Medic to HEAL, and then hope that they can make good money at it (selling pharmaceuticals or getting paid for healing services).
People take up Entertaining... what? to make money? PLEASE!
Lorilei
Allow me to unravel the flaws in your non-argument.
First, what's with the all-caps EARN? Did I ever say that musician was my only profession? No. I run a cantina that sells armor, spice, and other goods. However, let's pretend that I were only an entertainer. Your all-caps EARN blurt intimates that you believe entertainers either do not or are not entitled to receive money for services rendered. This is ridiculous beyond words.
Next, what's all this nonsense about socializing and interacting with customers and windup dolls while I sleep or work? Did I say anything in my post about my AFK macroing or not socializing with customers? No. Please do not introduce straw man arguments.
Let me tell you a little something about interacting with customers. Here is a scenario that happens often. Someone comes in and asks, "Who isn't AFK?"
"We aren't!", some of my fellow entertainers reply.
"Nice. You guys get tips"
Guess what we didn't get?
Another story. I was in a group with all AFK-ers except for me and one dancer. Some customer starts talking about how AFK-ers don't deserve tips. I don't disagree with him. My fellow non-AFKer and I chat with him and make it clear that we aren't AFK. However, in the end it seem the customer decided that we non-AFKers didn't deserve tips, either, even though the logical conclusion of his statement about AFKers would indicate otherwise.
Then we have your wonderful verbal fart about all professions not being about making money. Please feel free to indicate the profession that may be viably pursued by a character who has no credits. You talk aboutpeople taking up a WEAPONS skill to fight, but where do you think their weapons come from? Here is a hint: Neither Santa nor Hannukah Harry visits Tatooine. Scouts scout to survive? They scout to get money. Scout XP comes with harvesting corpses. Unless one specializes in unarmed fighting, a weapon is generally needed to obtain a harvestable corpse, as harsh language is not sufficient to kill a mob. Even in the case of an unarmed fighter, they need money. Maybe they want new clothes or a house to store their stuff; they certainly need training, and while other PCs can surely train you for free, those skills ultimately came from an NPC trainer. Gee, how did those first unarmed fighters (or the first of any profession) get their skills? From an NPC trainer. I dropped BE and CH to be an entertainer so spare me any of your crackpot ideas about Scouts.
Medics take up medicine to heal? No, they take it up to makea living. You obviously agree as you say that heal for pay should be made easier. You group this statement with a throwaway comment about medics being a different type of healer, but you fail to support this claim as if it were some sort of self-evident truth.
You started your post with "I couldn't disagree with you more". It seems that you could not disagree with me at all. You did not respond to one of my arguments. You simply responded to things I did not say.
Your post is one big ole straw man, and I have a match.
FlashBewin wrote:
I do feel that it's a little arrogant for performers/musicians to assume that they deserve Money. I don't mind paying, but Like someone else said...you didn't become a performer to make money.
I don't *Just* Craft...I have to harvest resources and such to make money as well. You can't simply rely on one profession to make you money, so if your waiting for someone to give you $10,000 out of the kindness of your heart...Don't hold your breath.
/denyservice just sounds like an excuse to force people to pay you. THAT is what i'm worried about.
As it is, its hard enough to find a musician-type person on Kettemoore in any Cantina...But if they're given the choice to deny service to anyone....i think that this is a form of blackmail, and thats what troubles me.
Please explain what is arrogant about wanting compensation in exchange for providing a needed service?
Compelling someone to pay for services rendered is blackmail? Cute. Have fun voting for Nader.
W-Axl wrote:
Not trying to flame, but I think it's going to sound like one anyway. The only person in this thread whose logic I agree with (mostly) is IronFreeze. JUST FIX THE ENTERTAINER MISSIONS. This to me would seem to solve it all in regards to making money. Don't feel you are being adequately tipped? Run an entertainment misssion. Cantina you're in slow? Run an entertainment mission. Want to keep the AFKers from making money? Well, it would be hard to AFK the missions while you sleep/work/etc., wouldn't it? Make the missions on a sliding pay scale based on skill. Make them a viable source of income like all the other missions in the game.
The only thing this doesn't fix is the griefers, but we are getting a /denyservice command for that (I am whole-heartedly against this feature, but that is another topic).
-Axl, Master Musician/Master Entertainer, Wanderhome
I am quite in favor of fixing the entertainer missions, and I suspect it would be the easiest thing in the world to be remedied. Fix the entertainer missions and make them slide based on skill just like destroy and other missions, and I'll be satisfied.
This was a point I forgot to make to Lorilei in my last post. The scouts and weapons users get to do missions to make money. I made over 8k in less than an hour doing explorer missions using my pistol skills, but I can't get an entertainer mission that pays 200 even though I am a master entertainer and one block away from master musician.