Musician Archive
Thread: Cantina Tables and Chairs the key to ending AFK buffing?
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Warryyr
Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:58 am
#1
Heh, OK, just another idea of getting rid of buffbots.
We all know that the Devs want to get rid of AFK play. However, I'm sure you'll all agree that there WILL be those industrious enough to find some means of AFK playing, and once the method propagates, we'll be back where we started until a hotfix that can take months to get into the game, let alone working.
For me, I think the fundamental way to necessitate non-AFK Entertainers in order to get buffed would be to tie Cantina tables and chairs into the deal.
One of the problems in cantinas is that there is no defined "stage area" to speak of. Right?
There are also all sorts of neat little alcoves to the sides of the cantina that go unused. Right? I can't really explain it, but when I walked into a cantina for a guild group-up, and we ALL sat in one of those little alcoves, all packed inand filling the entire little section (it really held more folks than I thought it could)- there was something very Star Wars about it. It *felt* like we were in a little corner of a dive, like where Han and Chewie talk to Luke and Ben.
Anyways, what is there a decent amout of, in cantinas, that goes typically unused? Tables and chairs. Sooooo many people are just standing around. That'd be fine if they were standing against the bar or something, but why would everyone be standing around in a cantina? Wouldn't they be sitting and enjoying themselves?
Go with me on this one (a proposed experience of getting Entertainer buffs with this idea) -
Combat Player (let's call him Luke) walks intoa cantina.
Entertainers can entertain anywhere, and provide healing. Players can stand around and get healed all they like, anywhere. Luke wants Music and Dance buffs, though.
Luke knows the drill. He walks to a table and sits in a chair. Maybe there's some folks at a table he knows. Maybe there's some folks he doesn't know, but sits there anyways. Maybe he prefers to sit at his own table, in a dark corner of the cantina, away from everyone else. Maybe he prefers to stand by the table.
Luke targets the table, bringing up a UI window. The window says, "Which type of Entertainment are you looking for? Dance/Music/Both"
(Option 1) Luke selects Dance.
A Dancer/Musician named Oola has her overhead map up (CTRL+M). She knows that once someone's looking for a Dance buff, the table graphic on the overhead turns to orange. Luke's table turns orange. She heads over to greet him and start the buff for him, by targetting the table and "registering" to the table for the Dance buff, deactivating the table's orange color on the overhead map (buff requested is taken care of).
Buffing still works the way it used to (up to 20 people in a group) but in order to actually GET the buff, you have to join a table, and the Entertainer must join as well. Up to 2 Entertainers per table (Dance and Music). You can see similar "group tabling" by visiting a Jubilee Wheel. You all play the same game by "joining" the table.
(Option 2) Luke selects Music.
A Dancer/Musician named Oola has her overhead map up (CTRL+M). She knows that once someone's looking for aMusic buff, the table graphic on the overhead turns to light blue. Luke's table turns light blue. She heads over to greet him and start the buff for him, by targetting the table and "registering" to the table for the Music buff, deactivating the table'slight bluecolor on the overhead map (buff requested is taken care of).
Buffing still works the way it used to (up to 20 people in a group) but in order to actually GET the buff, you have to join a table, and the Entertainer must join as well. Up to 2 Entertainers per table (Dance and Music). You can see similar "group tabling" by visiting a Jubilee Wheel. You all play the same game by "joining" the table.
(Option 3) Luke selects Both.
Same as above scenarios, but the table alternates between orange and light blue colors, indicating both buffs are needed. Oola would deactivate either Dance or Music, and the corresponding color on the overhead map would turn off (no more blinking, now the table is solid orange or light blue, waiting for an Entertainer fitting theremaining buff need to come by and serve their need. Or, Oola gets the Dance buff done, then deactivates the Music buff request, and music buffs Luke).
The above method provides a few different benefits to both the Entertainer, and the Cantina patron.
First, the Entertainer now has a way to KNOW if someone is looking for a buff, rather than desperately trying to wade through the sea of chit chat going on in the cantina (it can get pretty crazy to notice one person shouting for a buff between Spatial, GroupChat, GuildChat, /tells asking if we're buffing, /tells asking you about who knows what, etc.).
Second, the patron has an easy and consistent way to request said buffs, and is assured that if someone wants to buff, they'll see their buff request regardless of the noise in the Cantina via the colored tables on the overhead map.
Third, it'll help spread out Entertainers within the Cantina, so they're not all grouped up right in front of the bar, or in the front room. It'll make those side rooms have a purpose, and it'll promote competition among live Entertainers to get to tables in order to buff. If you see an Entertainer right by a table, well sit down and you know they're buffing. If you see one in the front room, sure they can heal ya, but you'll have to take a load offand hang out by a table to find a buff and "get some service." I hate the reference to being waiters/waitresses, but really, we ARE providing a service, and there's tables and chairs in every cantina. It just seems like a natural fit. I see strolling minstrels in upscale eateries, playing for diners. Why not have Dancers and Musicians do the same in SWG?
Fourth, all tablesmanned by Entertainers already? Head to another cantina and /register. Gets all of us out of just 3 or so "popular" cantinas. Less populated cantinas mean more open tables.
As a final note, I'd LOVE to see the actual bar be targettable. It should have an option to "Lean" on it. This would be a way to heal up that Battle Fatigue similar to gradual wound healing in Medical Centers. The current speed of BF healing is painfully, painfully, slow and inconsistent. Letting people "hang out by the bar and take it all in" would not only be Star Warsy, it'd help those who are in the middle of nowhere and just need a little BF healing to get back and fight. It may take more time versus an Entertainer, but folks really need a viable option to heal BF on their own. I literally sat around for 1/2 hour yesterday in a cantina, with some high BF. It was ridiculously slow to heal. I mean, slooooooooooow.
OK, thanks for reading everyone.
Message Edited by Warryyr on 01-19-2005 09:00 AM
Warryyr
Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:10 am
#2
P.S. This all came to me when I built one of the Cantina Seats from a looted schematic for a guildie.
If there was also a Cantina Table loot, why not let these things work in player Cantinas, just like NPC cantinas? It'll make that loot all the more valuable.
All of this, by the way, would have to happen during our revamp, obviously.
I think it would also be incredibly cool to have games available to all who join a table, too - Sabaac, Pezak (or whatever), anything. Players could compete against each other and their rankings would be saved. The top Sabaac player on the server gets a special reward of some sort, and so on.
Of course, an Entertainer must join the table so that players could access the games 
Tralmek
Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:53 am
#3
Wow, that had to be a hard one to conceive of and then articulate!
I'd go for something like this.
Strong points:
•Makes reasonably clear who's Buffing and who's Entertaining
•Makes clear who's there for a buff and who isn't
•Strengthens the "roles" of Performer and Patron
•Makes buffs easily attainable
•Spreads out Entertainers around the galaxy
•Disables buffbots (assuming it's implemented well)
•Provides a stronger "Star Wars" sense to the cantina experience
•I've always been grumpified that there is no Sabaac in Galaxies--adding it to these would be great!
Not-so-good stuff:
•VERY different system from current one--would cause lots of confusion initially
•Some people (Likely more amongst dancers than musicians) would see it as too "adult" having "table dances"
•Even gambling is macroable right now, it's possible these tables could be made macroable as well
•Buff availability would be cut (from the current buffbots) leading to yelling from the combat professions
o Not that I care so much about that personally, but TH has expressed concerns about how the removal of AFK macroing might affect peoples' ability to get buffs during the off hours when"no Entertainers are around"
Message Edited by Tralmek on 01-19-2005 10:55 AM
Nifty
Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:06 am
#4
Is this in addition to ending recursive macroing? If not...
What is the prevention of having the table targeted and setting upa macro that registers for music, performs, finishes, registers for dancing, performs, finishes and then repeats the cycle? You mentioned the entertainer standing next to one of these tables. A buff bot could stand next to the tables and alternate music and dance (or you get 2 buff bots that are dedicated to music and dance.) In fact, this seems easier to AFK because the entertainer only has to deal with the table. The entertainer doesn't deal with the players needing the buff at all. Players needing buffs will learn to look for buffbots standing next to entertaining tables, then they just sit down and get buffed without interacting at all with the bot. At least now they have to join the buffbots group.
Don't get me wrong, I actually like the idea, I guess I am just missing the part where it ends AFK buffing.
edit: as to Thunderheart's musings on what happens if someone can't find an entertainer because there are no buffbots... well, said someone that can't find an entertainer just needs to go buy some good vasarian brandy. 430 brandy for 50 minutes at 50 filling (or about that) gives 860 buffs for 50 minutes, and you're thirsty enough to take two more shots after the 50 minutes are up. Can't find a buff, this stuff works as a good substitute.
Message Edited by Nifty on 01-19-2005 12:12 PM
Shaizann
Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:31 am
#5
Well thought out.. I think Lilo hit on some of the points I would agree on as far as strong v. weak parts of it. The other negative I could see would be a buffing entertainer "camping the buff table" thought that might not be a problem if more than one entertainer could use a table at the same time. Also, it would be needed to have interation that could not be marco'd of course, but that goes without saying.
I, too, would be concerned that the idea of a 'table dance' could be construed as too adult. It could lead to some uneeded comments by the less mature of our gaming crowd. However likely nothing more or less bad than some of the crap folks already deal with.
I'd be happy to see this implemented. 
Warryyr
Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:37 am
#6
Nifty wrote:
Is this in addition to ending recursive macroing? If not...
What is the prevention of having the table targeted and setting upa macro that registers for music, performs, finishes, registers for dancing, performs, finishes and then repeats the cycle? You mentioned the entertainer standing next to one of these tables. A buff bot could stand next to the tables and alternate music and dance (or you get 2 buff bots that are dedicated to music and dance.) In fact, this seems easier to AFK because the entertainer only has to deal with the table. The entertainer doesn't deal with the players needing the buff at all. Players needing buffs will learn to look for buffbots standing next to entertaining tables, then they just sit down and get buffed without interacting at all with the bot. At least now they have to join the buffbots group.
Don't get me wrong, I actually like the idea, I guess I am just missing the part where it ends AFK buffing.
edit: as to Thunderheart's musings on what happens if someone can't find an entertainer because there are no buffbots... well, said someone that can't find an entertainer just needs to go buy some good vasarian brandy. 430 brandy for 50 minutes at 50 filling (or about that) gives 860 buffs for 50 minutes, and you're thirsty enough to take two more shots after the 50 minutes are up. Can't find a buff, this stuff works as a good substitute.
Message Edited by Nifty on 01-19-2005 12:12 PM
Yeah, they're getting rid of recursive macros eventually, so that goes without saying.
Getting rid of recursive macroing won't necessarily defeat AFK buffing, I'm afraid. People will find a way.
The key to the table is making a mechanism that prevents *any* means of AFK'ing the buff process. The table would have to be designed from the ground up to require someone to actively interact with it.
Someone who's AFK can't actively select Dance or Music on the table. How are they going to click on it? The /ui action defaultbutton should be "Leave table." Problem solved. Any attempts at AFK'ing the process would be the responsibility of the Devs to defeat, as well as TC folks. That's why they're there, anyways.
"In fact, this seems easier to AFK because the entertainer only has to deal with the table. The entertainer doesn't deal with the players needing the buff at all. Players needing buffs will learn to look for buffbots standing next to entertaining tables, then they just sit down and get buffed without interacting at all with the bot. At least now they have to join the buffbots group."
The entire pupose of the table is that no one could just stand by it and run some macro. The Entertainer AND the patron would have to interact with at *least* the table, actively, to do the buffing thing.
Along the lines of the Image Designers' new UI, there (obviously) shouldn't be any corresponding keyboard commands for selecting the table and selecting to buff Music or Dance.
Basically, I understand your concerns, but the entire existance of the system would be to end AFK buffing, so....don't make the table AFK'able. 
That's the idea. /join becomes useless when you can be in an Entertainer's group, yet they can't instigate a buffing session because they're not playing Live.
Thanks for the comments, helps hammer out a solid idea as much as possible.
Warryyr
Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:51 am
#7
Tralmek wrote:
Wow, that had to be a hard one to conceive of and then articulate!
I'd go for something like this.
Strong points:
•Makes reasonably clear who's Buffing and who's Entertaining
•Makes clear who's there for a buff and who isn't
•Strengthens the "roles" of Performer and Patron
•Makes buffs easily attainable
•Spreads out Entertainers around the galaxy
•Disables buffbots (assuming it's implemented well)
•Provides a stronger "Star Wars" sense to the cantina experience
•I've always been grumpified that there is no Sabaac in Galaxies--adding it to these would be great!
Not-so-good stuff:
•VERY different system from current one--would cause lots of confusion initially
true - Launchpad notice, or Friday Feature, or *gasp* word of mouth through interaction with Entertainers. Trust me, when the Mind buff system changes, people WILL figure it out - one way or another lol.
•Some people (Likely more amongst dancers than musicians) would see it as too "adult" having "table dances"
I guess that's a matter of perspective. Whether the person is sitting on the floor in front of you, or standing there, or whatever, you could be doing a "table dance" for them. There won't be any actual dancing on tables. Just next to them. Which is what Dancers do now, anyways - right by the bar.
•Even gambling is macroable right now, it's possible these tables could be made macroable as well
Then the tables should be made to NOT be macroable. Easy peasy one two threesey. Click only. Like ID UI's.
•Buff availability would be cut (from the current buffbots) leading to yelling from the combat professions
o Not that I care so much about that personally, but TH has expressed concerns about how the removal of AFK macroing might affect peoples' ability to get buffs during the off hours when"no Entertainers are around"
That's what Chefs are for. Interdependance among professions is good. I don't know why TH is concerned. That's why they revamped Chef, right? Can't find an Entertainer, eat and drink until you're stuffed. They're a very viable option considering most brandies are +400 at least for 1/2 hour or more, and Canape can be gobbled up at 33 filling (so 3 and you're full), lasting 10 minutes, for up to around +600 usually. And +600 Canape are rather easy to find. That's +1800 to Mind substats for 10 minutes. Or, save some of that Food stomach space for Vercupti - +1000 or more to all primaries. Now you're talking a +1800 Mind primary pool if you need it. Use when needed or when in a serious bind.
The prices of food, when broken down, are very comparable to Entertainer buffs. Sometimes they're a better deal. A Dance buff on Starsider is usually around 5 or 6k. For the same price you can get Vasarian Brandy at +400 and 18 uses. That's a +800 buff to ALL Mind stats (not just Mind, also Focus/Willpower), for a combined total duration of around 9 HOURS. That's 3, 3 hour buff sessions. Assuming the brandy lasts 1/2 hour for each use. Some last 40 minutes or more.
Oh yeah, and by the way, that food or drink is with you wherever you go, whenever you need it. It's an Emergency Entertainer in your pocket, essentially. Talk about accessibility to Mind buffs....
As for BF healing while no Entertainers are around, fix the rate of healing passively in a cantina with the "Lean on Bar" option I suggested. Or something like that. Or just increase the passive healing rate, it's ridiculously slow right now.
Thanks for the comments, man Good stuff.
Good stuff.
Else-Whira
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:06 pm
#8
As a dancer.... I would most likely never do buffs again (not that I do many as it is now.) I didn't take up dancer to wait tables. I am a performer, when I am performing people can choose to watch what I am doing or not. I'd rather see a simple buff mechanic in place that requires some kind of general payment that a combat player makes to get a buff from us. Like if they tip x munber of credits to us they get a buff that lasts a certain % of time etc. Sure buff bots wouldn't be solved by it, but then again if a passive system like that was in place buff bots wouldn't need to run /invite macros at all and all of us would be on equal footing (PC and NPC alike). Combat players wouldn't have to ask us for anything so they'd be happy and we'd start seeing an increase in random income as credits were tipped to us for buffs.
Warryyr
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:07 pm
#9
Shaizann wrote:
Well thought out.. I think Lilo hit on some of the points I would agree on as far as strong v. weak parts of it. The other negative I could see would be a buffing entertainer "camping the buff table" thought that might not be a problem if more than one entertainer could use a table at the same time. Also, it would be needed to have interation that could not be marco'd of course, but that goes without saying.
Well, "camping the buff table" wouldn't really be that big ofa deal. All cantinas should have their "local" Entertainers. There's nothing too wrong about some good, healthy competition. Provided it's competition with people PLAYING the game, not macroing it
Hire a Merchant to bark with their droid for you - advertise Entertainment in a quiet atmosphere, NO SPAM, and a friendly hello. Or, they could put in what others have suggested before, a sort of Entertainer Board where you could look and see what registered Entertainers are in what Cantina throughout the galaxy.
I, too, would be concerned that the idea of a 'table dance' could be construed as too adult. It could lead to some uneeded comments by the less mature of our gaming crowd. However likely nothing more or less bad than some of the crap folks already deal with.
Yeah, the "buff me ***tch" crowd in this game needs to go away. But they won't. In a game as diverse as this one is, there are bound to be jerks. If you dance exotic in front of the bar right now, someone could sit in the seat right by you and pretend it's a "table dance" or whatever. Or, they can plop themselves at your feet.
You can spend your entire gaming session worrying about what the other person is doing behind their keyboard if you want to, but then, why play the game in first place? If someone pretends they're raping you or whatever, you /report them and open a harassment ticket, and a CSR will investigate. Same holds true with this. There are systems in place to deal with people like this.
If someone's at a table and says, "Come here, and dance for me!" Well - isn't that what Dancers do? RP it out, ask that they ask you nicely, and ultimately if they're rude, don't join the table until they change their tune. What are they gonna do - get an AFK'er to buff em? mua hahaha
If another Dancer wants to take the abuse, let him or her. More power to 'em.
I'd be happy to see this implemented.
Niyol
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:13 pm
#10
Not a bad idea... will need to think about it a bit. One thought off the top of my head is to even add some sort of a ui, like IDs have, for collecting tips.
Tralmek
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:30 pm
#11
I suspect table dance was the wrong way for me to phrase that negative, but I'm not sure how else to put it. I'm just remembering the flames that went on in the dance forums over a guide to exotic dancing, and how many people already take exception to the idea of paying for private dances.
If this system were implemented, I think it would be great to have thecustomer registerring for a buff make an offer with the request, so the Entertainer could check how much would be paid before taking the job, and payment would be assured.
Warryyr
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:45 pm
#12
Else-Whira wrote:
As a dancer.... I would most likely never do buffs again (not that I do many as it is now.) I didn't take up dancer to wait tables. I am a performer, when I am performing people can choose to watch what I am doing or not. I'd rather see a simple buff mechanic in place that requires some kind of general payment that a combat player makes to get a buff from us. Like if they tip x munber of credits to us they get a buff that lasts a certain % of time etc. Sure buff bots wouldn't be solved by it, but then again if a passive system like that was in place buff bots wouldn't need to run /invite macros at all and all of us would be on equal footing (PC and NPC alike). Combat players wouldn't have to ask us for anything so they'd be happy and we'd start seeing an increase in random income as credits were tipped to us for buffs.
Totally valid opinion. Here's mine:
Consider that you wouldn't *have* to "wait tables." You could dance in a corner of the cantina where there are tables, which is pretty much anywhere in any cantina (this table thing wouldn't have a 2m radius, I mean really, you can be a distance away and help someone at a table), and if someone wants a buff from you, you tell 'em to come to where you are. You wouldn't even have to move, just join the table, they walk up and join the table, and away you go.
If someone wanted to actively run around to help those tables that are waiting, so be it. If you don't, then don't. If they want a buff from you, ask them to come to you and join the table near you.
Since you mostly perform, and as you said, don't do many buffs as it is, when a Combat person asks you for a buff, do you run over to them in the front room of the cantina to buff them, or do they come to where you are? If they're in the same cantina as you, I'm guessing they go to where you are so you don't have to stop performing. Same holds true with this - run around to help people if you like, or hang out where there's a table nearby and let them come to you.
You wouldn't even have to deal with the "NEED BUFFS PLZ!!!" crowd, you'd just have your overhead map turned off, and you wouldn't see the various blinking tables. People could watch you perform as they like, or not. Without all the annoying buff request Spatial spam cluttering up the atmosphere.
Just a thought, but I knew some would construe this as a "waiter/waitress" method of play, when really nothing would change. Unless you were one to run around and attend to each table, which would be a rather new way to play an Entertainer within the cantina - no more stand here, do this. Now you can run around to help patrons, and KNOW who wants buffs.
Warryyr
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:50 pm
#13
Tralmek wrote:
I suspect table dance was the wrong way for me to phrase that negative, but I'm not sure how else to put it. I'm just remembering the flames that went on in the dance forums over a guide to exotic dancing, and how many people already take exception to the idea of paying for private dances.
If this system were implemented, I think it would be great to have thecustomer registerring for a buff make an offer with the request, so the Entertainer could check how much would be paid before taking the job, and payment would be assured.
Yeah, good idea with the payment thing! Right on!
I remember the exotic dancing guiding - but I mean, that was blatantly an "adult" subject.
I guess my thought on this system was that you'd be entertaining the table of patrons, or a *nearby* table of patrons. As in they'd all be focusing their attention on you. You wouldn't have to be right smack in front of them, you could be a distance away and still join the table. The important thing is, that particular table of people is enjoying your performance.
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