Musician Archive
Thread: A Cvil request as to exactly how buffbots hut *you* as a player?
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PoetDancer
Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:56 pm
#92
I agree. It will not do anything to stop unattended entertainment. But what it will do is take away the only thing that makes buffbots special: the ability to distribute "/" buffing authorizations far in excess of any live player. As a live player, I don't think that's fair. Why are we protecting the right of boring alt entertainers to distribute over 7000 buffs a day, while I who may only be able to perform for two hours in a day cannot? Why do we support this system that limits the ability for us to be effective because we have limited time, when buffbots have no limitation because they have unlimited time?
Unattended entertainers will always be there, but unattended entertainers will always be boring. And if patrons aren't worried about coaxing a "/" command out of a musician, they'll be in the state of mind to appreciate the things that are going on in the cantina right now, and tip them in turn.
I am convinced that /invite and /setperform are a protection racket for buffbots and live players who are selfish and boring like buffbots. I don't think thatwe live players who truly care about the performance need to be afraid if they are taken away. The effort shines through, and I know because I see it everyday in the cantina. And I think its such a shame that our audience is so stressed out over trying to convince an entertainer to do a"/" command on them that they cannotappreciate the effort that is there. The only individuals that these gates have benefitted are thebuffbots and entertainers who can play star wars 1, flo 1,and can sit back and collect their tips because they have +25% clothes. Because ifwe really cared about the live game, we'd make it so the things live players do in the cantinahave the opportunity tomake the difference. This system does not encourage that. It only encourages routinizing a process and the ability to create a boring, predictable performance so patrons can be assured they'll get the buff.
I have faith in my ability to amuse the audience, and I have faith that if the audience just is in a state of mind to relax and appreciate what I am doing, they'll take care of me. I wish more musicians would have faith in themselves too, because I see and hear such beautiful things in the cantinas I perform in. And I understand that the current climate is not too friendly toward us. But its not because we are doing anything wrong. We are doing the right things. But the current buffing system encourages the sorry state of the cantinas, and promotes what the buffbot does. Blame the developers for not having the wisdom to realize that if you create a game mechanic that depends on a complex interaction, you only encourage automation. The current cantina atmosphere is condusive to automation. It is an environment that creates apprehention, fear, mistrust, and everything but the lighthearted and easy going environment I had last summer. And I am convinced its soley because our skills are not utterly passive.
Buffbots are bad and a manipulation. And if I can't get rid of them, at least allow me to have the tools to compete with them on a more level playing field. At least allow us to redefine the game in a way that makes the effort to amuse be the thing that is tipped, and not the mere ability to give out a "/" command. Because one doesn't even have to be at the keys toissue a "/" command,and even if unattendence was eliminated, one does not have to care about putting on a show to issue a "/" command.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-11-2004 04:00 PM
Tarnak_Archvold
Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:27 pm
#93
That is why I am a advocate of entirely removing mind buffs from the entertainer professions instead. It would achieve the same you idea would, but it would totally remove the need for buffbots. As long as buffbots can buff they will be around, both in public cantinas and in private houses. They will be there simply because the owners wand buffs available 23/7.
Remove the buffs and you remove he buffbots. Make buffs passive and what live entertainers gain in competitiveness will be little compared to all the new bot's that will arrive. You do know that many have turned the volume of player music down to zero right? They cannot hear they yours sound any better then the large AFK groups. And if they use the downtime for a bio break anyway then what does it matter to them what goes on in the cantina.
Remove the buffs and you remove he buffbots. Make buffs passive and what live entertainers gain in competitiveness will be little compared to all the new bot's that will arrive. You do know that many have turned the volume of player music down to zero right? They cannot hear they yours sound any better then the large AFK groups. And if they use the downtime for a bio break anyway then what does it matter to them what goes on in the cantina.
akothas
Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:58 am
#94
Tarnak_Archvold wrote:
That is why I am a advocate of entirely removing mind buffs from the entertainer professions instead. It would achieve the same you idea would, but it would totally remove the need for buffbots. As long as buffbots can buff they will be around, both in public cantinas and in private houses. They will be there simply because the owners wand buffs available 23/7.
Remove the buffs and you remove he buffbots. Make buffs passive and what live entertainers gain in competitiveness will be little compared to all the new bot's that will arrive. You do know that many have turned the volume of player music down to zero right? They cannot hear they yours sound any better then the large AFK groups. And if they use the downtime for a bio break anyway then what does it matter to them what goes on in the cantina.
If buffs were passive, people would have basically 2 choices
1. Get a buff from a bot by just watching.
2 Get a buff from a ATK player by just watching, and at the same time talking to a player who might know where the best foods, weapons, armor, groups are, enemies are, etc....
It is a fairly good idea, but still wouldnt remove all buffbots. Entertainers during the day would be able to compete easier, but people still need buffs 23/7, so bots would still be needed late at night (if your server is like ours)
However, during the day, ATK buffer would actually be a good thing, especially for Newbs.
Now....
If buffs were completely removed from entertainer, there would be no reason for me (as a Jedi) to even visit a cantina. I can heal my own wounds and BF with ease. Buffs I still need. If they put Doctors or a frog in charge of mind buffs (or if they didnt exist at all) Cantina's would be even more enpty than they are now.
MusicalDina
Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:24 am
#95
akothas i think you are totally wrong. If they removed the buffs, it would get rid of bots. BOTS are the reason cantinas are so empty. Not everybody is a jedi. Not everybody wants to play a single player game. Once entertainers realized that the bots were gone guess where most of them would hang out? Cantinas would be live again, and im sure after a couple months the entertainer community would have a lot of new members.
The number one reason you cannot find many live entertainers in a public cantina is bots. They ruin the atmosphere, and get all the business. A hostile atmosphere means the entertainer is not going to stay long. Why should they? Everybody goes to the bot they are no longer needed, so they pack up and leave. New player comes along and finds nothing but NPCs in the cantina, drops ent and picks up marksman/brawler.
Does it have to be explained over and over? Just because YOU might not ever need to go to a cantina doesnt mean others dont. Just because YOU dont want to go to a cantina doesnt mean others dont. The cantinas would be full again if the bots went away.
People say the bots are because of the lack of entertainers- i call BS. The lack of entertainers is because of the bots.
However i dont think getting rid of buffs for entertainers is the right way to go, but i would give them away happily if that were the only choice.
LyteFoot
Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:35 am
#96
One thing I don't understand in the 23/7 arguement. If there are players online all hours playing combat, artisan, and medic roles why don't you think there would be entertainers on at all hours?Do you think entertainers turn into pumpkins after midnight? Seriously the reason you find it hard to locate an entertainer during off peak times is because they have no incentive to make themselves known. There aren't hundreds of doctors running around at off peak times but there are a few and you know how to find them, it would work the same way with entertainers if robots hadn't supplanted the need for them.
It's a lot of work to let people know you are available, you have to be willing to be in the same spot at the same time on a regular basis, you have to let people know you are around, you have to give up other opportunities. I've done this and it is a lot of fun when people are coming to see you, its boring as heck when they aren't. It also means that I pass on guild hunts, JTL groupings, and other activities to make sure I'm available for specific periods of the time I have available online. Why should entertainers do that today, knowing that it might result in 10 people coming to them over 3 hours while hundreds have run to their local buff bot? We didn't create the situation we are just trying to deal with it and still enjoy this game.
Vorpaks
Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:10 am
#97
LyteFoot wrote:One thing I don't understand in the 23/7 arguement. If there are players online all hours playing combat, artisan, and medic roles why don't you think there would be entertainers on at all hours?Do you think entertainers turn into pumpkins after midnight?
LOL. I've often wondered this myself. I finally decided that all Europeans must be bloodthirsty.
/hides from Europe
MadLeprechaun
Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:56 pm
#98
ATC_SR wrote:
.
couldn't have said it better myself.......my eyes hurt, i'm going to go lie down for awhile and rest my eyes and my head, too much reading. oh and the thing about females gettin more service ain't true. I am a guy and i RP my chick character quite well so that everyone i have met and made friends with still thinks i'm actually a girl
i have never gotten more businees than the guy entertainers i have become friends with, But i will say that i get more business wheni turn on my buffing macro and go watch TV.......and that's all i have to say about that
Jacob_Entertainer
Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:11 pm
#99
A great reply DinaJa Erso
But you do of course know that the pro-AFK lobby are deaf to such responses and will blindly continue promote their "service" until the Devs finally remove the ability to AFK. I also suspect that we will have to suffer several weeks of grief from them once AFK is removed.
I wonder just how long it will take them to actually listen to the Devs who have clearly stated that AFK gameplay does not belong in SWG and it WILL be removed.
But you do of course know that the pro-AFK lobby are deaf to such responses and will blindly continue promote their "service" until the Devs finally remove the ability to AFK. I also suspect that we will have to suffer several weeks of grief from them once AFK is removed.
I wonder just how long it will take them to actually listen to the Devs who have clearly stated that AFK gameplay does not belong in SWG and it WILL be removed.
MusicalDina
Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:21 pm
#100
oh i do realize this. If you look back you will see if have been trying to point to the light since afk started showing up in mass. I have known that the pro-afk is blind in this respect for the majority of this time.
However, i say it, and have repeated often enough, because there are people out there that arent one way or the other. They are the ones that might be convinced. I say it because new entertainers that come here and might be thinking of going the afk route.
Who knows maybe one or two buffbot owners did see it and said "oh my i didnt realize that!" geez, i really didnt realize i did have some optimism left in me.
Anyways, i know the buffbots will be going on for sometime. I am willing to say that there will be attempts at making buffbots well after the devs attempt to get rid of afk.
My posts are dedicated to those that dont have an opinion, or those that are new looking for advice. And of course the occasional open minded buffbot owner/user. I really feel that the majority of people that use them dont understand how bad it really does effect us.
Anistasio
Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:04 am
#102
Let's put it to the test. Let's keep macros, since it is the only way you can make this unattended character do the kind of things it does. Let's make it soboth of uscan buff an unlimited number of patrons at a single time, like BF healing. Let's take away the need to /invite or /setperform in order to buff and make it require only /watch and /listen for a requisite amount of time. Let's make things more accessable to the patrons, and put ourselves in a realm where the sunum bonum of these professions is not how many successful "/" commands we give out, but based on other criteria. Its an easy enough change for them to implement, and it makes your buffbotmore effective.
But it also makes me more effective too. It will put me on the level of what you do. And then you'll be in a realm where this class is no longer about who can give the greatest amount of "/" commands. It will be about other things. And if after that, people still laude you with credits and admiration, then good for you.
thats the best idea yet
MusicalDina
Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:33 am
#103
I have to say i dont believe this is the solution to our problems. The afkers wouldnt go away because of this - its not like we have long lines waiting for us to buff them or anything - the buffbots do. I really think this would help the buffbots become more efficient and give them more customers.
The fact is the root of the problem is that people can stay in this gameworld unattended. Your toon shouldnt be able to shoot, skill animate, talk, or anything when you are not there. That is the way it should be, and IMO, until they fix that the buffbots will always be there.
If we go and get it so no / commands are going to be given out i really am not seeing how that helps us. We are there to give those commands out. To our buffs it still comes down to the listener not screwing it up, just like it is now, and if the listener cant get it right today this wont help them any.
At the very worst, people stop tipping altogether - no reason to afterall - people come into the cantina go straight to the buffbot and since there is no need to wait in line they get their buff and go. Instead of now where they might have to wait 15+ minutes for others to get done, and maybe even asking for a live ent because of it.
Giving us the ability to buff as many as a buffbot can in one day doesnt help us any if there arent customers to give those buffs to. If i was having to turn customers away because i was buffing somebody else that would make sense, but im not. Besides my buff session is only 3:30 anyways, so even if I was my turn around would be so high it would be hard to keep a group of 20 filled.
This would help convenience, as we wouldnt need to group or /setperform, but wouldnt solve any of our fundamental problems.
PoetDancer
Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:41 pm
#104
A buffbot is only a buffbot because it can give out a buff. Make the buff something that they cannot give out, and it becomes just another unattended LAMEr.
I made a more sophisticated argument on this subject on the AFK all purpose sticky on the dancer forum.
What are our fundamental problems? I'll tell you what I think it is. Its this garbage buffing system that takes us out of our game, and turns it into something else. We aren't paid because we are amusing anymore. We are tipped on the basis of whether we give out a "/" command or not. And I think that's a pathetic way to justify my presence in the cantina. No longer am I an entertainer, a musician, or a dancer. I have become a "short order waitress" with this system. And its degrading to see that I am being judged on the basis of how many "/" commands I give out. Because it takes absolutely no skill or effort to do it. And I have to tell you, I resent like Dathomir the fact that SOE has seen fit to burden me with so much complexity that I didn't even have to deal with at launch.
And as a result, I am seriously nerfed as a live player playing this thing. Because I can more than compete with a boring buffbot when the game was in the sphere it was at launch. What I cannot compete with is when the class becomes simply an exercise in giving away "/" commands. Because you don't need to be amusing, interesting, or even alive to give away a "/" command. You simply need time. And time is something buffbots all have far in excess of what any live player is even capable of duplicating.
Make the buff system intuitive and stress free like BF healing. That puts ourselves and our audience in a state of mind to relax, go back to what this class was originally about, and doesn't nerf our enjoyment for the sake of being an efficient short order waitress.
It will take the spam out of the buffbots, since buffbots won't need to spam to coordinate a procedure.
It will take the crowds away from the buffbots, because the players won't need /invites.
It will redefine this class into something where the effort to amuse can be appreciated again, rather than have to take a backseat to the mad dash to give and receive "/" commands all day long.
It will bring the game back to the way it was at launch, where live ents were cherished, and unattended characters were simply LAMErs who didn't do anything all that special.
It will put the buff back into the hands of who it really always belonged to: the patrons. Let them take charge of their own buff. They want it, and they can get this currently with buffbots. Make it so they can get the same convenience with us as they can with them.
Take the game away from those boring dancers and musicians who only play SW1, /flo1, and can get big credits for doing it in +25% clothes. Let them give the buff, but be unable to control who does and does not get it, and let them work for the tip the way we used to in the old fashioned way: amusement.
Have faith in mechanical passivity, musicians. Not this pathetic "halfway house" between active and passive. Let the audienceworry about their mechanics distribution, and let us do what wedo best. No musician who puts effort into the performance needs to fear mechanical passivity. In fact, they should embrace it. It puts the emphasis right where it should be: on the active playing of this class.
But I am not naiive, DinaJa. I know darn wellwe as a group of professions will never consent to theremoval of these buff commands. But I have to tell you dear, I'd sure appreciate it as a live performer if we as a group wanted to go back to our roots as passive providers. Because I was happy in those days, and we even had unattended entertainers in those days too. I could deal with them then, and never felt threatened by them. Now I do. And its because the changes placed the game into a realm wherethe processfacilitate whatbuffbots do.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-24-2004 11:55 PM
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