Musician Archive

(For the record, I am a Master Musician/Master Entertainer/Master Artisan. I have played entertainer since launch and was entertainer during Open Beta.)

On mission payouts:

The fact of the matter is entertainers have no money-sinks. Therefore, the class will get no increased income from the missions. Period. This is a balance issue for the devs and has very little, if any, possibility of being changed most likely. The economy is a balance, whatever money goes in, must go out. Right now, on some servers, inflation is taking over because there is still too much money coming in, and not enough going out.

We don't pay for our instruments but once, and we usually make our own. We don't pay to do our buffs. We don't pay for anything degrading. We don't experience any decay because we're not in combat at any time (pure entertainers). So, it costs nothing more than a pittance for maintenance, travel, and clothes (non-BE'd since you don't HAVE to have the good stuff).

(PERSONALLY, I want to see us have to have components to do our buff. Then we have a money sink, then we have a reason to need money, then we have a reason for bigger pay, and a reason to charge for buffs, and the buffbots can't AFK all day without spending money, managing inventory, and THAT will do more than anything else to slow the AFK Buff-Bots down.)

So what does this leave us?

We make money from buffs because this is money coming from other players, not the system. Therefore there is no inflation issues.

Now, some people want to remove buffs. Why? Throw the baby out with the bathwater? Really? How drole. I think this is the first time I have heard of a class ASKING to LOSE content. If the devs stop laughing long enough to look at it, they might do it just because it'd be fun.

This is a crazy idea.

I'm glad NewJedi is at least against it. Someone still has some sanity left and hasn't let the AFK'ers drive us all insane with hate.

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LyteFoot wrote:

Have you done them? I get offered 200 credits payout and it costs me 475 credits in shuttle fees or 800 credits in swoop degradiation or an hour of running each way. So explain how they are balanced when they pay far less than the cost of completing the mission? Now balance that to one 35k janta mission covers my buffs, my travel, my armor wear and I can complete it in 5 minutes?

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You make some true statements but they need some clarification before being accepted as fact.

1.) Entertainer missions do not cover the cost to travel.

This is true, and I agree, stupid. But at the same time, it can be overcome (as I have done) by simply refreshing the screen until you get a mission in the same city or, at worst, a close player city. Combat-types have to do the same thing. We're usually hunting something specific (whether for XP or resources) and since we can only have 2 missions, we refresh the terminals continuously until we get 2 missions in the same direction with the same thing. It sometimes can take me up to 3-5 minutes to get 2 missions in the same direction for the same thing. At worst, it's poor game design by the devs but it CAN be overcome by the player being smart.

2.) 35k Janta missions on Dantooine...

You mention you can do these missions, yet I see no where in your sig or message where you say what profession(s) you are. I am curious to know as I am a Master Commando/Pistoleer0030/Scout3030 and I get owned everytime I try one of the 99+ level Janta missions, even buffed and armored. Now, maybe I've not spent the 2,000,000+ credits for some of the best comp and loot-enhanced weapons and skill mods. But then again, isn't that exactly where the entertainer professions are? My Master Commando owns a 300,000 cr. suit of normal comp armor (75/40) and a good sliced flamethrower (50,000 credits for a 5-pack, then slices). That's it. He's got 120,000 credits in his pocket that's mostly leftover from his resourcing business.

This is not meant as a personal insult. But personally, if you're a Swordsman/Brawler/TK or some other combination of one, I really don't believe you should be talking about this. You've stacked your template to be the best in the game ATM and that type of playstyle is no different than an AFK-buffbot. You're taking the easiest route to maximum reward. If you, personally, enjoy Swordsman or TK more power to you. But my characters have always had secondary skills in addition to combat. (hence 3/0/3/0 Scout for my Commando) because I wanted to be rounded character, not the best defense-stacked template. Now if you are not one, and you can still solo the Janta missions with base armor and weapons, then you certainly have my respect and admiration.

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Tarnak_Archvold wrote:

Ok I will pick on that one as well.
The ONLY credit sinks in the games are: Travel (Vehicles/shuttles), Death (Cloning/Insurance), NPC Skill Training, and Maintains. We are subject to these, just as much as any other profession. Who do you think die most often, the pure entertainer who can be killed by a nightspider, or the super buffed combatant who run solo group missions on dantooine? Not to mention that faction death do not cost decay on death or require re-insurance.

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These are also mostly true statements. But I'd like to point out something.

Who do you think dies most often?

I know this was a mostly rhetorical question on your part, but you are incorrect and I'd like to point out why. The combatant, by far, dies more. My little Bothan entertainer has died a grand total of 2 times. Once was to get rid of being overt after getting scanned while on a swoop, the other was to an aggro that popped on a harvestor she was maintaining while I had the maintenance window open and didn't notice the spawn. This is after 6 months of playing her. My Master Commando combat-char has died more times than I care to count.

As an "entertainer" you should not be dying at all unless someone drags an aggro into a cantina or you get jumped by thugs while traveling in a city. Your swoop is your friend in the wilderness. Now if you are doing un-entertainer things, then you should have un-entertainer skills to help out. That's just the way the game was designed.

Personally, I look forward to the day that entertainers go traveling with groups again to help heal BF and mind-wounds in camps and other places. Then we can get a seperation of classes of combat-entertainers (entertainers with combat skills) and pure entertainers (MM/MD/ME or MID or something similar) to make elite entertainers something more special rather than everyone has one because they never play them since they're useless outside a cantina.

But I digress.

You are correct on most PERSONAL money-sinks (if you are a member of a player-city, things get even more complicated). Personal money-sinks are:
-Travel (Shuttles/Vehicle Repairs)
-Death (Cloning/Insurance)
-Skill Training
-Maintainence (Houses/Factories/Harvestors/Vendors/etc)
-Bank Tips (5% per) <- This is actually a nice size too

If you're curious about all this economy stuff, I suggest checking out the Friday Feature from early this year by Raph "Holocron" Koster (the MAN as far I'm concerned) at:
http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/content.jsp?page=Astromech%20Stats%20Economy
(yes, I'm too lazy to do a CLICKY)

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Tarnak_Archvold wrote:

When a combatant pays a crafter for equipment that credit does not vanish, it goes to another player, which is just moving credit around. In addition, when equipment decay as part of combat, then it is not removing value from the game, and the combatant comes out with more wealth then they had when they entered it. If they did not they would end up with out any equipment.

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Ever seen mission payouts for PvP? There aren't any. So yes, it is possible (especially doing Corvette missions where you CAN'T insure for each death) where you can lose a whole suit of Composite armor and end up with nothing to show for it.

And yes, weapons degrading and suits getting destroyed, power-ups being used, spices, food, etc. all take value out of the game because resources are destroyed. Why do you think the repair kits work so infrequently or so badly?

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Tarnak_Archvold wrote:

Moreover, most crafters sell at a profit. That means that can get the resources used back and then some. So the combatant/crafter cycle is something like this.

1) Then the combatant goes out and make 2,000,000+ cr (maintains and travel and the like have to be covered).
2) Combatant buys a 2,000,000 cr set or armour.
3) The Crafter use the 2,000,000 cr to buy/harvest the resources to make a new set of armour and the maintains on factories/storage houses.
4) The crafter is left over with say 100,000 cr (very low profit).
5) Repeat as necessary.
This cycle feeds inflation. It does not prevent it.

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Actually, if the crafters were making very little profit we wouldn't have inflation at all. Inflation is when the amount of money being created (mission payouts/loot payouts) is greater than the amount of money being removed from the economy (see money-sinks above). The problem is payouts are actually WAY to high and so more and more money is flowing into crafters hands. This is o.k., except those crafters then go out to auctions and start to buy things for multi-million dollars. So that money gets transferred to someone else, who then either hordes it, or does something else with it. Personally, the crafters who are hording 100,000,000 credits and more and NOT spending it, are doing the economy a favor.

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Tarnak_Archvold wrote:

Moreover, the developers will never stop it; it is simply human nature to wand a higher income then thair expenses. Only by interdicting a kind of "property" tax that increase you maintain and cuts you mission payout depending on current wealth, can this be stopped... and guess what, that will never happen.

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No arguments here. You're right. And you're right. Something our IRL tax code actually does somewhat right.

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Tarnak_Archvold wrote:

As it is, a pure entertainer is the perfect credit sink. We only get credit from other players, thus when we pay maintains or travel we remove credit from the game. And who have ever heard of any entertainer who have become rich only on entertaining, with out being a bot?

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How so, at best you're paying for one house (it's what? 500 credits a day?). And then you buy clothes which NEVER degrade. And I discussed the travel part in my message above this one.

I also don't think the buff-bots are getting rich either since there's NO way to enforce payment on a buff-bot. I see them asking for money, but if the person going to them wasn't going to tip you, I assure you they won't tip a buff-bot.

I always make money when I'm live entertaining. Anywhere from 3,000 to 50,000 a night depending on how many people I know come in. I always chat up whoever's in the cantina though so that may have something to do with it.

I've yet to hear of a buff-bot making a large sum of money UNLESS they are playing in an adventure world like Dantooine or Dathomir. And if the buff-bots are there, why aren't we? If the money is being made on Dantooine, and you want money, then why are you entertaining in newbie-city Mos Eisley?...

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Tarnak_Archvold wrote:

As to why give away "content". Well I do not se buffing and healing as contend. It is abilities and skill. Our contend would be our songs and dances.
We were supposed to be a separate play style, along side crafting, fighting, and healing. Instead, we became a less useful healing class, because we cannot provide direct combat support as medics can.
We were going to be the play style for the people that did not enjoy combat, and we was made 100% dependable on it. Not only does our credit comes from combatants, but the ill effect we earn our credits from removing is generated as a result of it.

Battle faituige/mindwounds is the roadblock that keep combatants from fighting non stop, all else can be cured in the field. Guess what that makes the general combatant feel about our profession.

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Let me ask you one question then since you seem to want to get rid of all healing/buffing aspects of entertainer.

Who is gonna watch you perform?

Do you really think you can put together a show with the current system that is SO great that people will log-in to come watch it? And do you think ENOUGH people will want to do that on your server to make it worth your game-time?

I know it wouldn't mine. I love my Musician. I've been playing music in SWG since June 28th, 2003. But let me tell you, the music in SWG will never equal my MP3 collection. I love composing SWG music, but it's not enough to make me sit and just listen to SWG music all alone. If I want to watch a show, I'll throw in a TSO DVD and listen to THEIR music and show. The SWG is a pale comparison.

(and let's not bring in Javier's or Balgosa's excellent work into this. Produced shows are NOT what we're talking about here. We're talking LIVE shows.)

Anyway, if you think you're getting ignored now, try taking away your healing and buffing abilities. Then you can sit in the cantina, alone, and perform SW1 and SW2 until you're blue in the face (or gills, or whatever).

Because if that's what you're proposing, I'll drop my Master Musician/Master Entertainer. I like playing music, but not enough to spend hours choreographing and composing a show in a bork'ed system with broken dances, repetitive songs, and no audience.

Thanks but no thanks.

Message Edited by BrandonIT on 11-09-2004 01:20 PM

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Xyrdre wrote:

Entertainers tend to have more than one house, from what I've seen. At a minimum, it's often two small houses, one to be decorated as a home, and the other as a closet for clothes. Often it's at least a large house (what aspiring star wouldn't love to have a mansion? ), with one or more smalls for additional storage or other use.

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If you want a mansion, I would hope you're a big enough star on your server to support it. No, seriously, if you can't afford the big houses, don't use it. Buy yourself a factory for a closet, and use it. 1 lot, tons of space until they nerf it.

If you can't afford the mansion because of your income, then go back to the small Tatooine house until you become the next Aerosmith, or Blues Altuna, or Balgosa Windspire, or whoever...

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Xyrdre wrote:
But, and this is the thing that a lot of people forget - on the whole, we're oftenextremely aesthetically driven, and love a lot of change. Usually our clothes aren't for utility (so, we can't say that if it's working there's no reason not to keep it)...

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Maybe you could make friends with a good Tailor? I know plenty of tailors who basically give their stuff away. Now, usually that's because they have another profession supporting Tailor or they're just rich, but it shouldn't matter. "Never pay retail when you can get a discount."

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Xyrdre wrote:
...and I've known a LOT of entertainers who will just go through and destroy all of their wardrobe in favor of new stuff after a decision to change their look. We frequently destroy perfectly good stuff to make room for new perfectly good stuff, just for a change. That's likely a pretty unique thing in SWG. Not to mention (and I have no idea if anyone does this besides me... ), I just kinda equate decayed clothes with being frayed and ratty-looking. I know it's just a roleplaying thing, but I do it. If I have clothes that get to 70% condition, a lot of the time I destroy it and get a new one that isn't "worn out". Silly, maybe. But I do it, and it's a credit sink...

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I hear you. But at the same time you can't use that as an argument because it's a personal choice, not a profession-requirement. It's the same as we talked about above, if you want the 2,000,000 credit Stun Comp Armor, you have to work for it. It's not going to be given to you for 1,000 credits. If you want a new wardrobe every week, be prepared to pay for it.

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Xyrdre wrote:
The simple truth is that when enoughplayers have millions upon millions of credits in the game, as they do, prices for things go way up.

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Agreed. Which is why if anything, mission payouts need to be brought down, or even better, resources need to be harder to come by, for which JTL has made a HUGE difference in the availability of resources.

BUT, let's get to the last point so I can bring this together.

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Xyrdre wrote:
Even non-functional items like pieces of art and paintings often sell for hundreds of thousands or even millions of credits. The kinds of things that a lot of entertainers want to buyin SWG - fun stuff for decorating homes, for example - is so far beyond the reach of what can be ever gained at 300 credits per 15 minutes, assuming running doubled-up entertainer missions from the terminals. We're not looking to get our hands on the best of the best krayted pre-nerf weapons or anything, we'd often like a blue rug for our homes because it looks nice.

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And this is my least favorite part of your post. It's very well-written and you're exactly right except for one thing.

"Special-ness"

You see, you're right about the prices for a Blue Rug. I mean, on our server the Adhesive alone is going for about 700,000 credits for the Blue Rug Adhesive. It's probably more on other servers. And that's high.

But you know? When I walk into a house and I see that blue rug sitting on the floor, I go "WOW!". Why? Because I know it's worth a lot of money. I know that person has made it a point to own that rug, whether they went out and killed for it, or bought the pieces themselves. It's a centerpiece for their home.

Now, why do I say "WOW!" when I walk in? Is it because the rug is so great? Not really. It's a blue rug. Nothing more, nothing less. But it's "special". And it's special because not everyone has it.

I watched "The Incredibles" this weekend at the theater. Great movie, but the point they make in the beginning is one that needs to be in-grained back into our culture because we've lost it. And it's as true in a video game as it is in real life.

"When everyone becomes super, no one will be."
-or-
"When everyone's special, no one's special."

And that's it. You say you want a blue rug for decoration. I understand that. I do too. With enough time you will have it. Remember when mounts were going for 100,000 credits? It's new, and so it's expensive. Eventually it will come down in price to a normal loot item and everyone that had the money initially and wanted it will own it. Then the price will fall to about 50,000 credits or so for a completed rug (why do you think the devs set the buy price so low for the loot vendors? I think they'll pay 5,000 credits for a completed rug). But eventually many people will have it and the price will drop.

Then you can have it.

That doesn't sound too good, does it? Why? Why the negative reaction? Is it time? We've been playing for almost 2 years without a blue rug. Or is it because THEN the rug won't be "special." Everyone will have it. Like a mount...or a swoop...or a painting...(i've found artisans selling paintings for only a few thousand credits)...

Everything eventually comes down...

EXCEPTION: Some servers are hopelessly over-inflated. There's one thing to remember in this game. My experience at finding paintings in no way can mimic your experience, especially if you're on a totally different server.

But maybe you could ask the first artisan that walks in tonight to acquire a schematic and make a factory run of paintings and that you would buy the first one he makes. Help make somebody else's content, put out the word you want a "Twilek Painting", or "moonrise", or whichever. You may be surprised that some people are quite generous.