Musician Archive

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Beery wrote:

"Perhaps that is why you have bad experiances with people in game. If you cahrge what is considered a "fair" price, people will not resent coming to you."

Actually, the reason I started charging so much is that I found I got MORE respect if I charged more. The less I charged, the more complaints I got from my customersabout price, and I found that if I didn't charge and instead relied on tips, some would pay, and some would not. I didn't think that was fair. At my current price, the people who used tocomplain about the lower price I used to charge simply walk away without a buff. They may resent me, but at least I don't have to listen to them whine for 3 minutes while I'm buffing them.

As with many things, if you stick up for yourself and show peoplethat your service is valuable, people will respect you more for it. If you give in to them, they will treat you with contempt. If you have no self-respect, why should anyone else respect you?

"It's kind of odd to see somebody complaining that people resent Entertainers, yet at the same time, encouraging price gouging. "

It's kind of odd to hear a buffbot owner talk about fair pricing. If 10K per buff is price gouging, then offering free buffs is worse. At least people can walk away from my service and go somewhere else. Your buffbot doesn't give entertainers that same option. You steal their livelihood from them. I merely price my service at a level which gives me a modicum of self respect and whichdiscourages abuse. 10K per buff is not price gouging. It is charging a premium for good service. I give master buffs at the fastest speed possible. And guess what, I get repeat business because people respect me and enjoy my service.

Message Edited by Beery on 08-06-2004 05:46 AM

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Actually I think 10k is totally fair. You'r the one who has said repeatedly that if nobody else is around giving buffs it is acceptable to charge 50k, according to the laws of supply and demand.

My pricing is very fair. I don't charge a dime. When I am in buffbot mode, I am helping people, and not trying to make money. When I am out and about and buff people, I do it for tips. Tonight, I made 110k from buffing 1 group of 5 people. They were jsut happy I was around. Even in todays age of buffbots, Mind Buffs are not easy to get on our server.

"My pricing is very fair. I don't charge a dime."

How is that fair to the people who chose to be an entertainer as their primary profession? How is stealing their livelihood 'fair' by any standards? You have the ethical sense of a corporate raider. Your pricing is more than fair to one segment of the community, but it steals from another segment - a poor segment -in order to accomplishg that 'fairness'. You are like the anti-Robin Hood. You steal from the poor to give to the rich. Your ethics must be completely screwed up if you think that is in any way 'fair'.

Message Edited by Beery on 08-06-2004 07:41 AM

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Beery wrote:

"You'r the one who has said repeatedly that if nobody else is around giving buffs it is acceptable to charge 50k, according to the laws of supply and demand."

Wrong. I never said it was acceptable. I said it was capitalism in action. I never made any comment about whether it was right or wrong. I simply said it was realistic and logical to charge based on laws of economics.

Your kidding right? Time and again you have said that prices should be based on supply and demand. That if nobody else is around buffing Entertainer buffs SHOULD cost more. I argued many times that prices should be based on the value of the service performed and you argued against me.

"My pricing is very fair. I don't charge a dime."

How is that fair to the people who chose to be an entertainer as their primary profession? How is stealing their livelihood 'fair' by any standards? You have the ethical sense of a corporate raider.

Let me put this as simply as I can, said it before. Because..... these..... people..... you...... speak....... of....... are......... not....... around.......

I can't put it any simpler then that. I don't know what it's like on your server, maybe it is different. Maybe there, buffbots have bene around since day one, maybe at any given point in time you cna go to Theed, Coronet, Bestine wherever and find buffbots there, or even live Entertainers.

Let's put it simple again.... On..... Scyllla.... it.....is......not.......like........that,

People got sick and tired of looking for Mind buffs, so they got second accounts. Blame the Entertainer profession, blame AFK DANCERS, blame whatever, but do not blame the buff bots on scylla server. Mind buffs were hard to find, so people made buff bots.

To this day, you can go to big cities and still not get buffs, whether they are from Bots or real people.

Accept the fact that not all servers are like yours.

Message Edited by Beery on 08-06-2004 11:45 AM

Message Edited by Beery on 08-06-2004 12:17 PM

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Beery wrote:

I heard that the new DVD editions were going to be the same as the old VHSSpecial Edition Trilogy set. I've heard rumours that there was going to be an 'ultimate edition' wherethe first trilogy wasgoing to be altered and expanded in a major wayto fit together better with the prequels, but I'm not surewhether that's just a rumour, or whether there's some truth to it.

Actually, I prefer the Special Edition versions, except for the bit where they changedHan Solo's shooting ofGreedo (the change being that Greedo shoots first) - that was lame. The bit where Jabba spoeaks to Han in Episode IV has good and bad parts. It humanizes Jabba a bit, which is good, but the FX are not that well implemented.

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Oh I'm OK with those special editions. The changes I'm referring to are the things Lucas is doing to make the OT match his new movies. Like:

- Changing the emperor's hologram to use Ian McDarmid instead of the original guy
- Having the guy who played Jango in Ep 1 and 2 dub over Boba Fett's lines in Ep 4-6 (as well as all the stormtroopers)
- Changing dialog to refer specifically to Anakin
- Inserting a blue glowie of Hayden Christiansen at the end of ROTJ instead of the original Vader guy

See this site for more info.

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Groovymarlin wrote:
Oh I'm OK with those special editions. The changes I'm referring to are the things Lucas is doing to make the OT match his new movies. Like:

- Changing the emperor's hologram to use Ian McDarmid instead of the original guy- Having the guy who played Jango in Ep 1 and 2 dub over Boba Fett's lines in Ep 4-6 (as well as all the stormtroopers)- Changing dialog to refer specifically to Anakin- Inserting a blue glowie of Hayden Christiansen at the end of ROTJ instead of the original Vader guy

See this site for more info.

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StikerRunningfly wrote:

A few issues here, since we got off the topic of my original post, and I would like to address them:

I saw a comment in one of the replies in this thread referring to what the underlying problem is to begin with. I firmly believe that AFK macros were the underlying cause of everything that the musicians and dancers are complaining about now. I'm sure that some of you have NEVER gone afk EVER. I'm sure that some of you have NEVER used a macro to do your flourishes EVER. But think of the hundreds of other people around you, those ones that you see make it to master and simply disappear. The hundreds of entertainers you have seen in various cantinas that never say a word unless it's programmed into a macro. Many of them were hologrinding, this is true. I'll never forget the day I walked into Theed on Bria and the entire place was filled with dancing zombies all the way up to the door. I'll never forget the first piece of spam that hit my screen that day. It was a dancing commando that said, "Heal me tip me whatever I dont care just watch me so I dont have to do this STUPID dancing anymore". I immediately turned around and left, contacted some dancer friends, and met them in Keren cantina for my healing. Many others were not hologrinders, but hearing tales of the one dancer who made several million in tips, decided it was an easy way to make a few credits by setting up a macro and leaving it run while they went and did other things in the real world. They quickly learned their foolishness, and moved on to other things. And even some others who think that being a musician or dancer means setting up a macro and leaving it there. Most of these people are following the example of the others.

Regardless of why they were afk all the time to begin with, the fact remains that there were literally hundreds of people online at anytime who were simply not there. Now let's move to the position of the combat player, who needs BF healed or wants a mind buff. We'll use my pikeman/doctor character as an example:

Anyone here? I would like to purchase a buff. (29 counted entertainers in Theed at 10pm EST on Kettemoor, several masters)

*begins listening and watching to get BF healed*

Anyone? Hello? (no response)

*check inventory for buffpacks*

I have 2 quickness buffs here, they're free to the first 2 entertainers who send me a tell (dead silence)

*stiffs all entertainers and leaves to go find a buffbot on Dantooine*

This is a perfect example of a regular occurance in most of the "populated" cantinas.

Now many of you, especially those of you who know me at all will be thinking, "Klayton! You're a musician AND a dancer. And with the amount of support you've been showing for the anti-buffbot issue, WHY would you go and use a buffbot?" Let me explain something here. I am not strictly against buffbots. I see them as an attempt at a solution to the REAL problem, all the damn AFK entertainers. People simply throwing up characters, setting up macros, and walking away for the rest of the day so they don't have to deal with grinding, or god forbid, talking to people, is bad. It creates a very boring game for those who actually play their characters. It creates the illusion that musicians and dancers don't care about the rest of the community, and are just a bunch of whining crybabies who always complain about not making any money when they aren't doing anything to begin with. Want to know why there aren't too many doctor buffbots? Because most doctors are AT THE KEYBOARD performing their jobs. And if one isn't, or wont/can't buff right now, there is most likely another one nearby.

In conclusion, I'd like to make a proposal to all the regular entertainers, musicians and dancers. If you are the leader of a group, and some people are AFK the entire time, BOOT THEM. You can't support people being afk by helping them gain xp faster, then get upset because other players get frustrated and create their own buffbots because they can't even get a reply from the regular entertainers. If you're in a group, and most people are afk, LEAVE THE GROUP. Tell the others who are ATK that you are starting a new group for the people who are not afk. If you're performing in a cantina, and some clown is spamming the same thing over and over, and is obviously afk, ADD THEM TO THE IGNORE LIST. DON'T train these people in skills, don't group with them so they can get XP faster and not even have to do anything but push 1 button in the morning. They couldn't give 2 ****s about you because they are adding to the whole AFK problem, which as I explained, is the cause of problem to begin with.

Klayton

Master Entertainer/Musician/Dancer

Shadowfire

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Good post Klayton, worthy of some stars.

The problem lies deep however. The thing is many people bought and play SWG for different reasons. Some Entertainers bought it to socialize, some to craft, others bought it to fight, and many many bought it because they wanted to bea Jedi.

A Jedi is a fighting class mostly, it is going to attract a certain mindset of people. Action based people who like to "do" stuff.

That was the whole problem with the hologrind. It forced a certain "type" of person into professions such as crafter or entertainer. Professions that many of these "active" people would never try in a million years. Yet they wanted their Jedi. They NEEDED their Jedi. They would do those professions they didn't care about if they had too.

They never said they would be happy about it though. They CERTAINLY would do those professions in the fastest easiest way possible.

Many of them can't even comprehend that some people ENJOY the entertainer profession. It's playstyle is so alien to them. Just like that fact thatsome combatents have little desire to interact with people at all. The concept is alien.

I don't think afk or the macro system is the heart of the problem. Sure you may have had some AFKers before the grind, yet those people WANTED the profession. At some ponit in time, they would actually be doing it.

On Scylla, this is how I think the problem started, your server may vary, but this is for Scylla.

1. The world was happy and joyfull, people played together in Harmony.

2. Some people found you could afk through a profession. While distastefull, not a big deal, eventually they would be playing it.

3. Along came the Hologrind, forcing people to play professions that were contrary to what the player would ever play.

4. The cantinas became swarmed with AFK dancers, these people had zero interest in the Entertainer professions.

5. Entertainers began to quit or leave the profession. There was very litle content for them, and they hated sharing the cantinas with zombies.

6. Soon the only Entertainers around were AFK grinders, Mind buffs were very hard to find.

7. Tired of not finding buffs, people with zero interest in role playing an Entertainer bought a second account so they could get them whenever. Not for profit, but for convieniance, they then set them up as buff bots for their friends.

You can argue the order if you want, but on Scylla, that is how it went. Heck buffbots can still be hard to find at times.

So Klayton, yes I agree that while AFK totally helped push the Entertainers away, lack of content did not help. It was the AFK forced by the Hologrind and not the buffbot that led us to today.

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Groovymarlin wrote:

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Beery wrote:

There's another way. I do 3 minute buffs without any quickness buffs or accarragm: I just got a stat migration, putting all my stat points into the action parts of the HAM. I can flourish every two seconds all day long. Of course, if you do any combat at all, you need to get your stats re-migrated for that. So in that case it's stillgoing tocost money to do a 3 minute buff.

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I've thought about that, but I don't think it would work for me (I'm a Twi'lek). Are you human? You can max your secondaries quite a bit. As a Twi'lek my stamina is capped at a measly 400. Quickness isn't a lot better. Even with a maxed primary action bar, giving the usual "quick method" buff would drain that bad boy in no time.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

2. Some people found you could afk through a profession. While distastefull, not a big deal, eventually they would be playing it.

3. Along came the Hologrind, forcing people to play professions that were contrary to what the player would ever play.

4. The cantinas became swarmed with AFK dancers, these people had zero interest in the Entertainer professions.

5. Entertainers began to quit or leave the profession. There was very litle content for them, and they hated sharing the cantinas with zombies.

6. Soon the only Entertainers around were AFK grinders, Mind buffs were very hard to find.

7. Tired of not finding buffs, people with zero interest in role playing an Entertainer bought a second account so they could get them whenever. Not for profit, but for convieniance, they then set them up as buff bots for their friends.

You can argue the order if you want, but on Scylla, that is how it went. Heck buffbots can still be hard to find at times.

So Klayton, yes I agree that while AFK totally helped push the Entertainers away, lack of content did not help. It was the AFK forced by the Hologrind and not the buffbot that led us to today.

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StikerRunningfly wrote:

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

2. Some people found you could afk through a profession. While distastefull, not a big deal, eventually they would be playing it.

3. Along came the Hologrind, forcing people to play professions that were contrary to what the player would ever play.

4. The cantinas became swarmed with AFK dancers, these people had zero interest in the Entertainer professions.

5. Entertainers began to quit or leave the profession. There was very litle content for them, and they hated sharing the cantinas with zombies.

6. Soon the only Entertainers around were AFK grinders, Mind buffs were very hard to find.

7. Tired of not finding buffs, people with zero interest in role playing an Entertainer bought a second account so they could get them whenever. Not for profit, but for convieniance, they then set them up as buff bots for their friends.

You can argue the order if you want, but on Scylla, that is how it went. Heck buffbots can still be hard to find at times.

So Klayton, yes I agree that while AFK totally helped push the Entertainers away, lack of content did not help. It was the AFK forced by the Hologrind and not the buffbot that led us to today.

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Yes, I can absolutely agree with this. I've seen it happen pretty much that way from beginning to end on several galaxies. But the problem with AFK still exists today, whether it's to grind the last few professions before the hologrind comes to an end, to make a new buffbot (for those who don't read the forums and don't realize it's coming out), or to grind out a new entertainer. Let's face it, there are still plenty of people out there who believe being a musician or dancer means signing on in the morning, pressing the button that starts the macro, and leaving the character to play or dance all day while annoying other people with spam about tipping and healing. I'd still like to give a piece of my mind to the person(s) who came up with the idea that grinding out different professions that the players had no interest in will lead the path to the "most desired" profession in the game.

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Yea, there will always be people who are AFK, evne after the hologrind, but those numbers will quickly drop. The thing is that it will always be there, because people will find ways to afk.

I myselfam really skeptical that there will be enough Entertainers to go around. I'm a social person myself, I chat in ventrillo and guild chat constantly. However, I can do that even as a combatent or crafter. No matter what happens to AFK, I somply don't feel there is enough "beef" to the Entertainer profession to make large groups of people take it up.

You would need about as many Entertainers as Docs on primary characters. So while AFK is a large part of the problem, giving more reasons for people to play Entertianers is even more so.