Musician Archive
Thread: From your Correspondent: inviting suggestions on AFK'ing
Drygo
Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:34 pm
#287
Deminya wrote:
I decided to put in my 2 cents.
I am a holo-grinder, and yes, I do alot of AFKing. I'm at my keyboard about half of the time. By the time the devs do anything I will have come and gone. In fact, by the time the devs do anything, the hologrind will be over and this point of this thread will mostly disappear.
Anyway, to my point, AFK entertainers are important to the combat professions that I come from. Having been a commando and being halfway through TK, I see this issue a little differently. Before I came to your profession, I spent a lot of time on Dathomir fighting rancors. The biggest help to me was being able to go into the cantina at the outpost to have my BF healed. There is one dancer (I don't remember her name ATM)who is always there AFK. She never asks for tips, in fact, she never says anything, but she's always there on Gorath BTW). If you remove the ablilty to AFK macro the entertainment profs, she won't be there. I know you guys might feel that she's taking business away from you, but it would be unfair to the combat professions to be forced to pay nearly 5k for a round trip ticket to Coronet to watch the ATK people there. Then to be expected to pay for the service you provide. If you guys insist on limiting AFK macroing, then limit the fix to Coronet. But, I have a feeling that when pub 10 goes live, you'll see the numbers of AFK performers decrease dramaticly. Anyway, the devs need to focus more on the professions that really broken, like Smuggler (been there, done that, zero AFK, wanted to put my eyes out).
Lastly, just remeber what can happen when the devs try to fix things (take the ID profand the outrageous timers for example). Imagine the bugs that could appear with the no tips or xp while AFK. And remember macroing, tips, and AFK timers not only affect your prof, but they affect everyone.
Out
I would disagree. Yes, it may be inconvenient for you to seek out an entertainer if there wasn't one readily available on Dathomir. But, is it unfair? No. If I need someone to make me armor, do I not have to seek them out? If I need someone to heal my wounds after I've died, do I not have to seek them out? If I need someone to make me a house, or a swoop bike, or if I need to gather up a party to go into the Geo Labs or the Corvette, do I not have to seek them out? Isn't all of this a time sink, and isn't all of this accepted within the SWG community at large? I think it is. So, I fail to understand why it's not just as acceptable to have to spend time and money to seek out entertainment mind healing, battle fatigue healing, and mind buffs. You speak of unfairness to the combat professions, but what of the unfairness to the entertainment professions? Heck, I could easily say, "you know, I need some new +5 mind healing hotpants, it is absolutely unfair of me to have to spend a couple hours locating a tailor who can do this for me. I want those hotpants to be available to purchase off of an afk tailor at anytime!" I want to be able to hire 9 NPC combatants to go with me to the Corvette whenever I want! I want afk doctors sitting out there with their droids to heal me on demand, when I get killed by a rancor so that I don't have to go all the way back to Coronet! That's not how it works with the other professions, why should it work that way with the services from the entertainment professions?
Padtai
Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:18 am
#288
I used to feel that AFK bots were useful...until I came across an AFK turbo looter....his explanation for what he did(on the trade forum--he was never in game to explain it)? Well, anyone else could set up camp on the pile of trash as he had done, and loot away.Acoording to him, he provides a consistent stream of merchandise--thus helping the community. I thought it was a stupid argument, b/c ultimately he was runing the chance of discovery and reward for adventuring-and he wasn't really helping the commnity--just profiting off his ability to have a second account that could do nothing but loot This is in fact, the same way an AFK entertainer ruins the stage for those who want to play entertainers.Yes you could argue its a service to some players--but you can't ignore its a huge disservice to others. And once I realized that--I changed my mind about entertainers.
As another poster said quite eloquently, people get used to having to search out weapons, teammates, armor etc... and whilesome grumble this is "downtime", many more see that as a challenge, and part of the reason for having a guild. So i really do not think anymore it is a legitmate argument to say "well people need healing" so AFK entertainers are good or even necessary. People need health heals too--but we dont' see afk medic bots (no we see tumblers).And we see doc buff botstoo. So what does that tell you? The reason people grind AFK is not tohelp other players--but help themselves. If others get helped by it--well, that's a side benefit but not the reason most do what they do...or we *would* see AFK medic bots.
So in the abscence of healing bots, people manage somehow to either have the healing skill or have a friend that does...and I don't see why this became different for mind/bf heals. If all you have is novice medic--you could simply drop that and get entertainer at times when needed. But people don't think to do that if there's always an AFK entertainer around. And even post grind--b/c of the buff bots, this wil not change.
So allowing the extent of AFK that is currently in the cantina just creates a negative cycle for those wanting to play an entertainer--they aren't needed (b/c there are bots to replace them) or valued, or even appreciated by the majority of the playing base. So they either change professions, or quit the game..or a rare few will continue, seeing the tough times as a challenge....but certainly not a reason to become an entertainer.
In any case...no matter what profession you love, you have to think about the game as a whole--or at least, SOE should if they want to maximize their playing base. Buffbots make the game too easy for combat types and too pointless for entertainers....andthe only way I can think to change that is a coding change.
And i think SOE has the code to use -- the same stuff that happens to take down a harvester. For music/dance, that could easily be a series of flourishes instead ofa number...but anything else (including a trade window thing) can easily be handled by either an in game macro'd or done with a 3rd party mouse click software. And though the 3rd party stuff is illegal-- if it can't be detected very easily--then all it takes is for one person to do it. Just one bot ruins a cantina for any number of live performers...b/c the bot can be on all the time and most players aren't on all the time. So instead of different players 'staffing" a cantina over the course of a day--just one bot parks itself there and discourages other performers from even trying. That is the true AFK problem, not those trying to power grind,--and I really hope SOE fixes that. B/c ultimately, a bot reinforces the idea that time spent in a cantina *is* downtime, rather than a chance to chat and roleplay a little. You'd be surprised how many people don't consider themselves "roleplayers" yet have elaborate bio's they created...an entire history for their character...it may not be something they want to do all the time..but I think most players actually enjoy the social side to the game in doses between the combat (or crafting) side. Very few players are signed up for an online game to play only by themselves or a few close real life friends--most are open to the concept of an online community.
So conclusion: There's no real justification for AFK and a very simple way to discourage it long term (assuming grinding multiple professions won't be required to be a jedi), is to require a code of some sort to provide buffs. I'd say that would wipe out the number of AFK entertainers such that they'd be about as common as an AFK medic bot....that is, not very.
Deminya
Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:24 pm
#289
Personally, I don't care what good or bad things come to your prof from any changes that are made to stop AFK macroing. And I can understand why you guys and gals don't like it. However, comparing healing to buying Armor is crazy. I can easily find the Armor, Weapons, and most other goods I want in most player cities. However, I can't find entertainers who are ATK in most player cities, let alone most planets. And about the "AFK Medic bots", unlike medics, entertainers don't group with combat profs nearly as much as medics, so there would be no need for this.
Time spent in a cantina IS downtime. Some people don't want to be social or roleplay (not saying that I don't at times). Those that do would be more likely to visit the entertainer who is ATK.
What really needs to happen is either the entertainers who actually are ATK need to travel more like the doctors mentioned earlier, or SOE needs to make planets like Dathomir, Lok, Rori, Yavin 4, Dantooine, and player cantinas exempt (this opinion comes from never being able to find anything other than AFK entertainers on these planets on Gorath). Another thing that might help would be to put together concerts in specific locations (and advertise it) much like combat profs get together and hunt
Lastly, remember that everyone pays to play this game. How they play the game is up to them. As long as what they do doesn't break the TOS, I have no problem with it.
I still think that before SOE does anything, they should wait to see the state of this prof after pub 10. This issue might resolve itself after that and all these changes may not be needed. Instead of changing things with the AFK system, they need to first address the real problems with the game in the other profs that have been around since day one. There are quite a few professions that are really broken.
Drygo
Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:39 pm
#290
Deminya wrote:
Personally, I don't care what good or bad things come to your prof from any changes that are made to stop AFK macroing. And I can understand why you guys and gals don't like it. However, comparing healing to buying Armor is crazy. I can easily find the Armor, Weapons, and most other goods I want in most player cities. However, I can't find entertainers who are ATK in most player cities, let alone most planets. And about the "AFK Medic bots", unlike medics, entertainers don't group with combat profs nearly as much as medics, so there would be no need for this.
Just a question...when was the last time you asked an entertainer to come out hunting with you? I've made a lot of friends on Kettemoor, I'm guilded, I'm always included in hunts if I'm around. I know my guildmembers like the fact that I'm there to buff and heal. And, yes, I do have one combat profession that I can help out a bit with, though I am almost always the first to be incapped because I have no buff myself, lol. But, I remember a time before I was guilded when I was chomping at the bit to go out hunting with a group. I remember getting on my swoop bike and riding around looking for camps and offering my services.
My point is this. Ask an entertainer if they want to go with you. Some will probably turn you down, of course. But, there are others who feel completely like they might be stepping on toes if they ask a group of 5 or more if they might tag along. But, I guarantee there are others like me who would love to be an entertainer/buffer for hire and go out there...especially the ones who haven't found people to be with quite yet. It might be advantageous to you if you had your own personal buffer and healer with you on an extended trip...one that could even rebuff you after 2 hours is up and your doc buffs are still going strong.
I made my way into the combat groups through perseverence and joining a guild. But, I know I would have enjoyed it if someone had asked me if I'd be willing to tag along. It's kind of a novel idea that. Going to a Cantina, chatting up your entertainer/buffer, and asking them, "hmm, how about we pay you 20k or whatever to come along with us for buffing and healing, and a share in the mission payout?" Some may actually take you up on it, and it promotes interdependence and a sense of place for everyone. 
kaldarin
Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:03 am
#291
Few ideas to discourage afking
1. After a pre-set timer (not changeable) No exp granted, no benefits to others bestowed,
2. Make an acceptance yes/no block for when people want to listen to you.
3. After a longer pre-set timer (also not changeable) the client disconnects you
Unfortunately SOE will do nothing to stop the afk zombies since most of them are second or third accounts (think $$$) or holo grinders but at least that problem should go away soon.
JaygeSundancer
Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:32 pm
#292
Just thought I would mention about one idea. I have seen those who say we should get rid of The /ui action toolbarSlot command. Well just to remind people that musician and dancer afkers are not the only ones who use this. Artisans and the medical professions use this too. Boy if they got rid of that function image the grind they will soon see.
In my opinion there should be a way to mark a person as being afk and give them not credit for heals. Though maybe for regular xp. I also think for musicians there should be more beginner songs. I know how much people hate having to go and play low level songs so us beginners can play in the band. Also I think that xp that is granted for playing should be alot higher our professions and that of dancers is the hardest in my opinion sense we are somewhat dependent on others. Another thought is that some of those cantinas in far off places that people complain nobody is at should maybe give a bonus to xp for those playing there. Some system that encourages people to play at them..
Just my thoughts.
Kreistor
Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:33 am
#293
I've mentioned this a few times on the dancer boards, but what the heck, I may as well start to bore the Musician boards as well.
The way I see the problem is this: There's only one real problem here. It's not macroing, because by itself it is very useful. It's not being AFK, because that has it's uses. It's the combination of the two that's the problem.
The solution? First, remove the possibility of players turning off the ability to be officially AFK (ie have the AFK flag). Also, fix the AFK timer to, say, 15 minutes. That way, when there has been no input from either the keyboard or mouse for 15 minutes, the toon is officially AFK.
Now, once that happens, simply dump all running macros. That's it!! Without the macro running, buffbots can't buff and macrotainers can't gain XP. But that's not all! AFK Macrolooters can't loot, tumblebots can't tumble, Spambots can't spam. All the annoying habits of these TWO combined features will be gone, leaving the original system in tact and for use as originally intended.
Now, the only thing wrong that I can see with this solution is that it may force the AFK Macroers to turn to 3rd party apps to continue their vile actions. However, if we know they can't do them with the provided system, then they MUST be using 3rd party apps, and therefore can be banned.
All in all, I think it's a good solution. Please provide feedback. I'm really wanting to perfect this idea and have it presented and approved to all the Corrs and SOE.
Comments please?
Gaiawyn
Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:17 am
#294
Date of first post by New Jedi - 9-25-03
Current date - 6-26-04
AFK'ers still going strong.
I think they are just biding time to see what disolving the holocron brings.
Warryyr
Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:14 am
#295
StarWorker wrote:
I can dream, but I would hope that every player owned cantina got a terminal where admins could announce their need for entertainers, and put a certain amount of money that could be paid to the entertainer(s) taking the mission.
Entertainers could look up on a list of cantinas given to them by the theater manager, and select the one they would like to take.
I am sure that several cantina owners would like to spend a lot of cash to draw entertainers to their cantina using a system like this. I know I would.
I think this is an awesome idea - player city cantina owners could put up ads to solicit some entertainers to come to their cantina at a set time/date to play. Let's say a big party is gonna happen, and they need more entertainment. Now, the payout could be a challenge, you don't want people to not get paid. Thecantina owner can put up the gig advertisement, and when the gig is over(maybe the gig would have a set timeframe - from 7pm EST to 10pm EST for example) it would payout automatically at the "end time."
This way, people could get out of the Theed/Coronet cantina nightmare, and visit other player cities - and get xp at the same time!
aibo220
Sun Jul 04, 2004 1:42 am
#296
I am in much support of AFK entertaining because:
A) You don't get over 100k xp in 2-3 hours.
B) You don't ever make a million dollars or even 100k while grinding it.
C) It is boring, uninteractive and you are confined to a cantina.
As where when you grind a combat professian:
A) You get over 100k xp in one buff session.
B) You can make several million in one buff session.
C) It may be repetitive but you have the option to train wherever you like and it is more "action packed" then performing.
To make it where entertainers don't grind while AFK the developers can:
A) Give us a bot like Doctors so we can travel around and get XP.
B) Lower the amount of XP needed or boost the XP we gain.
C) Give us missions that are equal to the same interactivity and payout as combat ones.
They need to add more things to do instead of us just being confined in a cantina.
Making it where you get no XP while AFK will not solve the problem at all.
Message Edited by aibo220 on 07-04-2004 01:44 AM
is-o
Mon Jul 05, 2004 5:04 am
#297
i dont know if some one said this all ready because there are way tom, any posts to read but make musician not so mind numbing and maybey people wok afk throu the whole thing. I just go my novice musician and i am already thinking about droping it cuz its so freaking boring
Tralmek
Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:29 am
#298
Strangely enough, a friend of mine recently started an entertainer. He set himself up in the Mos Eisley Cantina and after a few pointers from me on how to handle customers, he took off and is loving the entertainment business. In the three orfour days he's been playing he made the trial account max credits all through tips (well and like 3k from the helper droid, but the other 47k was all tips).
Like I said he's having a blast, making friends, making credits, and not AFK'ing. I was really fearful that he would hate entertaining when I learned that's what he picked up--he's a bit of a powergamer and loves games where he can go out and kill things. This has just reinforced my idea that a lot of entertaining is being at the keyboard and interacting with people. It has almost nothing to do with the songs or the dances, in fact I think the way to makethe trip to mastermost enjoyable would be to turn off the experience counters and let each level be a pleasant surprise instead of a day-ruining job of checking the xp every few minutes and worrying about reaching the next level.
/shrug
Personally I can't understand people who get bored with entertaining. I have four characters I play, and only one has no entertainment skills, only because he is 14 skillpoints short and needs the rest of the skillpoints to successfully fill his RP role.Social professionsare the most broken and neglectedplaystyle in the game, but I can't imagine being without them. If there were nosocial professions I would have canceled my account long ago to wait for JTL.
Eufack
Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:09 pm
#299
ok how bout this, they make it so the program kicks you off after 10 min of no activity on the key board. that would hopfuly stop any ways of making a very long macro to get around it. And, if i'm not horribly mistaken, computers know when their buttons are being pushed.
