Musician Archive
Thread: Look see? We have a dev talking to us about our inspirations!
LyteFoot
Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:53 am
#14
Bionic wrote:
CONCLUSION: I see where the devs are coming from. The answer is not to punish AFK'ers, in that we can agree.
I really disagree. No other game hesitates to punish AFK play. I played "A Tale In The Desert" which was a puzzle game mostly, no combat of any sort. This was a game full of mini-games but no activities that could really detrementally impact someone else. Even here they would kick you and eventually ban you for AFK play.
It isn't just about automating our profession or any other its the whole appearance and perception thing. Sheesh I hate hitting some star ports because of all the emote spam from all the people who walk away from their computers for exteneded periods. People coughing, smiling, yawning, jumping, cheering, etc. It looks BAD and I don't understand why SOE wants to continue to allow it. The argument that recursive macros would have to be removed is bogus and a lazy excuse because there are other ways. We just need to keep making this clear to the devs and not just focus on the impact to our game but the overall impact it has on the game as a whole. When the majority of toons I encounter are zombies there is something seriously wrong and the devs need to realize this. I'm not talking just entertainers but ALL toons.
Panthu
Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:52 am
#15
Bionic wrote:
There is no legitimate gameplay reason for recursive macro functionality to be in-game; its only purpose is to allow AFK players to remain in-game and take opportunities from ATK players. AFK play SHOULD be eradicated, and I hope that the dev team can see why less crowding in heavily spammed areas will lead to increased player interaction and overall game satisfaction.
I think the most important thing for us to walk away with from this Dev post on AFK is not "omgz, we need to scream about AFK more because they aren't getting it!!!!", I think it's much more important to accept that they want to do things to increase our ATK fun factor and that's what they want us to talk about.
It's just a fact, Devs prefer to talk to players about fun things the players want, not get yelled at about stopping an issue we don't like. We have been screaming about AFKers in these forums since they have been up. They know we don't like it. They know what's unfun about it for us. They'd rather talk to us about what they can do for us. Which is a good thing, this will end up getting us more cool stuff to do and play with in the end.
Warryyr
Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:17 am
#16
Panthu wrote:
Bionic wrote:
There is no legitimate gameplay reason for recursive macro functionality to be in-game; its only purpose is to allow AFK players to remain in-game and take opportunities from ATK players. AFK play SHOULD be eradicated, and I hope that the dev team can see why less crowding in heavily spammed areas will lead to increased player interaction and overall game satisfaction.
I think the most important thing for us to walk away with from this Dev post on AFK is not "omgz, we need to scream about AFK more because they aren't getting it!!!!", I think it's much more important to accept that they want to do things to increase our ATK fun factor and that's what they want us to talk about.
It's just a fact, Devs prefer to talk to players about fun things the players want, not get yelled at about stopping an issue we don't like. We have been screaming about AFKers in these forums since they have been up. They know we don't like it. They know what's unfun about it for us. They'd rather talk to us about what they can do for us. Which is a good thing, this will end up getting us more cool stuff to do and play with in the end.
Yet, people are still able to hit 1 button and leave their computer running for 4 days, imitating an Entertainer and giving us all a bad name.
That's the problem.
Being ATK can be the most fun and amazingly exciting experience, but people WILL still AFK and happily so, and knowing the attitude of the game's community because of this fact, they'll probably take the 10% crappy buffs with glee from a buffbot rather than deal with the perceived "hassle" of a live Entertainer.
Leave AFK in, in any form, and we continue to suffer, and no matter how fun things are, the clods will run to the bots while we yell, "awesome super fun fantastic game that will blow your socks off!" and they'll respond to, "don't want to talk to you, buff me or leave me alone."
That's the problem.
There should be no other option but to interact with an Entertainer, because we're people playing this game just like them. Well, we should be. But instead we're plagued with macro forgeries of Entertainers.
If AFK remains, our situation will never get better, no matter how fun our professions become.
Once the hoopla over new stuff fades away (I'm sure we'll see a rise in customers as people hear there's something new we can do), we'll likely be back where we started, still standing cantinas with inane bot banter encircling us, and people going for the "hassle-free" route of bots because so many now despise us for simply saying, "hello."
Sorry to be so bleak, but seriously, we can get more cool stuff to play with, but if AFK is still around people will do it and find ways to negate our fun stuff until we're screwed once again.
The AFK must go.
Save the fun stuff for the people who play this game. Don't give it to the lame bots to devise ways to defeat our fun and destroy the system the Devs design. If they can, they will bot. And people will go to them. It can't continue.
As much as no one likes to talk about it, it must be dealt with. Life isn't always sunshine and roses, and sooner or later the Devs will need to come to terms with the fact that their own players are destroying the game they work so hard on, and they're going to have to do something about it. Avoidance helps no one, and lets the situation fester.
Blah blah blah, blah blah, blah blah blah blah.
I'll shut up now.
Later.
Panthu
Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:37 am
#17
Warryyr wrote:
Blah blah blah, blah blah, blah blah blah blah.
I'll shut up now.
Later.
Hey, I have to admit that even as a corr I occasionally flipped out and screamed at the Devs about this. It was bad of me though. I was being a short sighted self indulgent person when I did it even though it was motivated by thefeelings of the community and not just my own.
The fact was and is, I know this is not the best way to get what we want. When we let our long term fears stop us from asking for the "neat and cool" that we worry will fade in fun pretty fast and we'll be left looking at bots, it just means we get less Dev attention period.
LyteFoot
Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:10 am
#18
The problem is that with the loss of healing experience we are seeing on TC leveling an entertainer legitimately will be a life time undertaking. This means there will be MORE not less AFK. This means there will be more sampling rads, riding escape pods, etc. This means more exploits to level an afk bot for your guild not less. They claim to be rewarding ATK but the removal of experience, retention of a dead skill tree, and passive buffs SCREAMS just the opposite.
So what are they doing to shorten the leveling process instead of extending it beyond the life of the game itself? Don't tell me EHXP from the new buffs, what are the odds that in a crowded cantina everyone is going to get a shot at those? What are they doing to reward ATK play? Everything I've seen so far is a penalty to live play not a reward.
So what are they doing to shorten the leveling process instead of extending it beyond the life of the game itself? Don't tell me EHXP from the new buffs, what are the odds that in a crowded cantina everyone is going to get a shot at those? What are they doing to reward ATK play? Everything I've seen so far is a penalty to live play not a reward.
Fragpuppie
Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:12 am
#19
You know the whole AFK debate has really gotten to me. Gotten to me to the point that I am starting to have conspiracy theories about it.
It hadbeen months since any Dev has said anything publicly about AFK til this recent post. So in my mind here's what I come up with....
- Devs post about a removal of AFK to make various vocal people happy.
- Devs then do nothing to change AFK play except (9 months later) a minor tweak that does not solve it.
- Inspiration buffs come out and can be completely AFK macroed and per the details, will be best applied by those who have the current buffbot template.
- When devs finally say anything else its in support of ATK play, it also states that AFK play will be there and an option (though maybe not with all the same benefits).
So here are the theories:
**NOTE THEORIES**
- The devs have been told by corporate to keep AFK play to keep up the subscription numbers.
- The Devs have been explicitly told to say NOTHING about AFK play because they would either have to lie about it (again as in the post "AFK will be going away") or upset the communities that are vocally against AFK.
- The inspiration buffswere added in their current form to maintain subscriptions of AFK alt accounts.
The people who should be speaking to Sony about this arenot the players. Its LucasArts. AFK play has made SWG a joke. Sony seems to have sold Lucasarts on the CU and expansions to counter the joke that is the AFK game, but those things are just layering paint on a broken down car. LucasArts and even George himself always seek out quality, but in this respect Sony is delivering a bad product in their name. LA should stop looking at the raw monthly numbers of the subscription count and look at the game itself. The name "Star Wars" brought in a bunch of people (myself included), but it won't keep them in a lousy game. We may want to look at pretty new stuff (RotW) and the combat system did need a revamp, but those could have been done in the existing system without a complete rewrite. The AFK problem is at a lower system level. This game will not be taken seriously until that is gone. Lucas should decide if they want a lousy product with OK subscription numbers or a KILLER product with a few less accounts at first but the potential to become huge....again.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Founding Member - Frag's Puppies
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Founding Member - Frag's Puppies
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
Aleyo
Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:36 am
#20
LyteFoot wrote:
The problem is that with the loss of healing experience we are seeing on TC leveling an entertainer legitimately will be a life time undertaking. This means there will be MORE not less AFK. This means there will be more sampling rads, riding escape pods, etc. This means more exploits to level an afk bot for your guild not less. They claim to be rewarding ATK but the removal of experience, retention of a dead skill tree, and passive buffs SCREAMS just the opposite.
So what are they doing to shorten the leveling process instead of extending it beyond the life of the game itself? Don't tell me EHXP from the new buffs, what are the odds that in a crowded cantina everyone is going to get a shot at those? What are they doing to reward ATK play? Everything I've seen so far is a penalty to live play not a reward.
Elwyn, that's why these things go through testing. It gives us the ability, before they go live, to give feedback on the problems. Is it a problem that the healing xp from inspirations isn't shared among the group? Then tell the devs that it's a problem, and that it will make leveling an entertainer take too long. I told them that.
But statements like "Everything I've seen so far is a penalty to live play not a reward" (specifically teh use of the word "penalty") makes it sound like you believe that the devs are purposefully trying to hurt us. Maybe you believe that, but I certainly don't, and I think many have taken Phydeaux-K9's post as evidence that it's not what they want. If on the other hand, you think that their efforts to help us will unfortunately hurt us instead, or that there is some oversight of our issues, then present it in that tone. The more clearly and straightforwardly you can present what your foresee as a problem, the easier it is for them to take action on it. Numbers, if you can get them, are wonderful in this regard.
Example:
"Once you reach novice musician, you grant inspirations at a faster rate, but still only get 10 xp per tick. This means that per person/inspiration, a novice musician will get less total xp for a full inspiration than a novice entertainer will, since the novice musician will go through fewer ticks to apply the full inspiration. It seems that this is a bug or an oversight regarding the amount of xp granted while inspiring. Since the amounts of xp required to level are higher as you reach higher levels, the xp granted as you level should increase, or at least certainly not decrease. Compare to combatants who can access more difficult creatures (with their higher xp) as they level, crafters who get certifications for more complex objects (with their higher xp) as they level, etc.
I suggest that at least the amount of xp granted be based on how much inspiration has been granted. This would make the amount of xp gained the same regardless of how fast the inspiration is applied.
I think it would be more appealing, and helpful toward filling those ever increasing xp requirements for leveling, if rather the xp granted be given a bonus based on how quickly you can apply it. The faster you can apply it, the more xp you gain, and then the leveling process is more balanced."
This feedback lays out the problem and the reasons it is a problem. It politely suggests that it may be a bug or oversight, and, in the case that is an oversight, gives the knowledge needed to more fully see the big picture of why it's a problem. It also makes suggestions toward fixing the problem. All this without a tone of assuming that the devs are trying to hurt us.
The inspirations are in testing; that means the devs *want* our feedback, so that they can make things better. So instead of making challenging statements about the devs, with your conclusions that the answer to their challenge is done and over with and a nerf to us, phrase it constructively, and they'll see it and want to help out.
Aleyo
Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:49 am
#21
Oh, and I'd also like to point out that yesterday's CU Focus Thread asked specifically how the xp progression was for entertainers, with regard to the inspiration buffs. So they're aware that this is an area that needs to be tuned to work out nicely, and sought feedback specifically regarding it. 
LyteFoot
Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:58 pm
#22
Scip I'm no longer interested in being polite. They have already stated flatly that AFK isn't going away, instead they are going to make it more fun to be ATK. I don't care how fun it is, as long as they support AFK play with ingame tools and there is some mechanic we can provide in a totally automated fashion we will have a sea of zombies. That mechanic can be FS experience, inspirations, healing, or anything beneficial to non-entertainers; as long as it exists and can be automated we will be disrespected as the AFK alt profession.
The long and short of this combat upgrade isn't to balance the game, it is to get SWG and EQ2 on a common code base so SOE can reduce support costs and improve their bottom line. Why else take what was to be the balancing of combat and nerf the heck out of non-combat professions to make them more EQ like. Why else introduce the common EQ concepts of mezzers, tanks, etc. Why else introduce player level concepts from EQ in a skill tree based game. So honestly I keep musician strictly for the fun I have with it and give up expecting them to do anything that truly deters AFK play or significantly enhances the entertainer game.
[edit]
Let me also add that I'm a 19 year computer programmer so quite aware of how to present designs and test data. But first there has to be a business case and in this situation the real business case seems to be about lowering support costs through code consolidation.
The long and short of this combat upgrade isn't to balance the game, it is to get SWG and EQ2 on a common code base so SOE can reduce support costs and improve their bottom line. Why else take what was to be the balancing of combat and nerf the heck out of non-combat professions to make them more EQ like. Why else introduce the common EQ concepts of mezzers, tanks, etc. Why else introduce player level concepts from EQ in a skill tree based game. So honestly I keep musician strictly for the fun I have with it and give up expecting them to do anything that truly deters AFK play or significantly enhances the entertainer game.
[edit]
Let me also add that I'm a 19 year computer programmer so quite aware of how to present designs and test data. But first there has to be a business case and in this situation the real business case seems to be about lowering support costs through code consolidation.
Message Edited by LyteFoot on 04-09-2005 12:05 AM
Landlubber
Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:20 am
#23
LyteFoot wrote:
Scip I'm no longer interested in being polite. They have already stated flatly that AFK isn't going away, instead they are going to make it more fun to be ATK. I don't care how fun it is, as long as they support AFK play with ingame tools and there is some mechanic we can provide in a totally automated fashion we will have a sea of zombies. That mechanic can be FS experience, inspirations, healing, or anything beneficial to non-entertainers; as long as it exists and can be automated we will be disrespected as the AFK alt profession.
The long and short of this combat upgrade isn't to balance the game, it is to get SWG and EQ2 on a common code base so SOE can reduce support costs and improve their bottom line. Why else take what was to be the balancing of combat and nerf the heck out of non-combat professions to make them more EQ like. Why else introduce the common EQ concepts of mezzers, tanks, etc. Why else introduce player level concepts from EQ in a skill tree based game. So honestly I keep musician strictly for the fun I have with it and give up expecting them to do anything that truly deters AFK play or significantly enhances the entertainer game.
[edit]
Let me also add that I'm a 19 year computer programmer so quite aware of how to present designs and test data. But first there has to be a business case and in this situation the real business case seems to be about lowering support costs through code consolidation.
Message Edited by LyteFoot on 04-09-2005 12:05 AM
I can only fully agree to everything you said. I really was wondering already if the point I highlighted has occured to anyone else or if I'm just being paranoid, but it's really logical if you think about it. Basically this so-called CombatUpgradeRevampBalance is one huge con-job - "fixing" combat is at best a side-effect and at worst a smoke-screen.
And I'm working in IT as a programmer too (on a pretty huge banking project currently, in fact),so I knowthis makes perfect sense from a programming and business point of view. It makes enough sense that I wouldn't even mind it all that much if SOE only was being honest about it. But I very much dislike dishonesty and being fed corporate crap.
Panthu
Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:17 am
#24
LyteFoot wrote:
Scip I'm no longer interested in being polite. They have already stated flatly that AFK isn't going away, instead they are going to make it more fun to be ATK. I don't care how fun it is, as long as they support AFK play with ingame tools and there is some mechanic we can provide in a totally automated fashion we will have a sea of zombies. That mechanic can be FS experience, inspirations, healing, or anything beneficial to non-entertainers; as long as it exists and can be automated we will be disrespected as the AFK alt profession.
The long and short of this combat upgrade isn't to balance the game, it is to get SWG and EQ2 on a common code base so SOE can reduce support costs and improve their bottom line. Why else take what was to be the balancing of combat and nerf the heck out of non-combat professions to make them more EQ like. Why else introduce the common EQ concepts of mezzers, tanks, etc. Why else introduce player level concepts from EQ in a skill tree based game. So honestly I keep musician strictly for the fun I have with it and give up expecting them to do anything that truly deters AFK play or significantly enhances the entertainer game.
[edit]
Let me also add that I'm a 19 year computer programmer so quite aware of how to present designs and test data. But first there has to be a business case and in this situation the real business case seems to be about lowering support costs through code consolidation.
Message Edited by LyteFoot on 04-09-2005 12:05 AM
I'm sorry, and wth does this have to do with anything?
I've been coding since I was 6 and I'm now 28, it doesn't mean I'm a friggin' game designer any more than your 19 years does here. Even if you were a game designer, there is no way you can claim to know anything about why SOE is doing anything with the code of any of their games unless you are an SOE developer or know someone really well who is. Beyond all of this, what you are saying just sounds stupid frankly. You think they are borrowing code from another game to share support more easily? Huh? Support has like nothing to do with development for the most part.
You are also citing game design choices as proof of this "scandal." Ok, no, that's crazy. The current combat system in SWG has received poop reviews since launch because MMORPGers like "mezzers, tanks, etc." Hello, they want more people to like combat so they are trying to make it more fun by adding these roles that are found in most other RPGs, not just EQ or EQ2. I know for a fact one of the main brains behind the CU is an avid pen and paper gamer and heard the man talk about the damage the lack of true roles has had on SWG’s combat system and how the CU hopes to change that.
Sure, I'm thinking some code's been borrowed. Some code, it's not like it's a straight freaking port or we wouldn't be seeing any Ents at all in the CU because guess what? EQ2 doesn't have them! You want to be offended because some code has been shared in between SOE games and they didn't come out with a memo saying so? What? Are you crazy? Why would they need to do that? I'm sure there has been some sharing of code in between most SOE games and if there hasn't been, then that sure does seem like a waste of resources to me.
Again though, what in goodness does this have to do with anything any of us need to be worried about? We aren't share holders. We are fans! We play the game! We are allowed to ask for features we would like to see and report bugs that need to be fixed... and they even give us these boards and a whole corr program to do this better! Do you know that EQ didn't even have forums for a while because they decided they were too negative? This is all optional, dude. You aren't a mini-SWG Dev. You are a fan. When you abuse these boards with silly crap like this, you risk losing this nifty set up we have going on here as fans.
How about you knock it off with the doom and gloom talk before you spread any more crazy in this forum?
LyteFoot
Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:30 am
#25
never mind, not worth the trouble anymore.
Message Edited by LyteFoot on 04-09-2005 06:36 AM
Bionic
Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:04 am
#26
I've thought about this more in the last few days.
Now, I'm really upset by Phideaux's remarks. If AFK is something that is accepted by the developers, why was AFK combat removed recently? When did the change in sentiment occur?
Tiggs said this on October 12th: "I will say that AFK dancers drive me bonkers as well when I am playing. I have no problem saying that if someone is AFK they will not be giving me buffs nor will I give them any credits. I do have many dancers on my friends list that I know are active on the servers I play. These dancers will get my business and receive payment for it.
We (the team) are all concerned about this issue and we will have this fixed. I know you have heard that over and over but not from me So hang in there we will be addressing the recursive macroing issues after we ship JtL. "
Was there a meeting where this issue was discussed and it was deemed no longer necessary? Is the extra revenue from buffbot accounts so compelling that you find keeping them around more important than us?
I am happy that you are adding "incentives" to be at the keyboard. That is not what we have been asking for, though. To be honest, I don't care if the current schedule of 1.5 new songs per year is kept. The change to eight person maximum groups is a death knoll for most serious bands, and the support of AFK entertaining while proclaiming that recursive macro functionality is being removed is not only frustrating, but gives me little reason to have faith in any of the communication the devs give us. Increased communication is great only if you can believe the message being sent.
Now, I'm really upset by Phideaux's remarks. If AFK is something that is accepted by the developers, why was AFK combat removed recently? When did the change in sentiment occur?
Tiggs said this on October 12th: "I will say that AFK dancers drive me bonkers as well when I am playing. I have no problem saying that if someone is AFK they will not be giving me buffs nor will I give them any credits. I do have many dancers on my friends list that I know are active on the servers I play. These dancers will get my business and receive payment for it.
We (the team) are all concerned about this issue and we will have this fixed. I know you have heard that over and over but not from me
So hang in there we will be addressing the recursive macroing issues after we ship JtL. "Was there a meeting where this issue was discussed and it was deemed no longer necessary? Is the extra revenue from buffbot accounts so compelling that you find keeping them around more important than us?
I am happy that you are adding "incentives" to be at the keyboard. That is not what we have been asking for, though. To be honest, I don't care if the current schedule of 1.5 new songs per year is kept. The change to eight person maximum groups is a death knoll for most serious bands, and the support of AFK entertaining while proclaiming that recursive macro functionality is being removed is not only frustrating, but gives me little reason to have faith in any of the communication the devs give us. Increased communication is great only if you can believe the message being sent.