Musician Archive
Thread: What is wrong with AFK Musicians?
OK, let me start by saying that I was an AFK musician, but that I have changed my ways. I no longer AFK music for extended periods of time ( we all need to occasionaly step away for brief periods), but I will say that I will AFK other things.
Let me also say that I do not AFK for my own profit at this point, and have not profited in any way AFKing formany months, and if I had profited AFKing before, it was not my intention or goal.
/oldmanvoice
Back in the day...just after the middle ofOh three, music XP was very hard to come by, and you'd go into the busiest cantina and find an entertainment group of maybe 10 people, and much less in other places. In those days Entertainment healing XP was everywhere. I had filled both colums of EH skills before I finished one of music. My adding my instrument (in most cases bandfill) to the group added greatly to the groups XP gains in music skills, and (the reason for the fill) rounded out the sound so that IMHO the music sounded better.
/normalvoice
Alas, those days are gone. With the changes in the game, the following things have happened.
1) With "Holotainers", even the non AFK ones, the entertainer population has exploded. One night this past weekend I witnessed there were 2 FULL groups of entertainers, and a third rapidly filling. I don't know if it got past half way because it was WAY too crowded, but there has been no shortage of musicians, of all levels to fill up groups in the popular cantina's. I knew I was in trouble the first time I left a group to make room for a non-master (something I will always do), and was invited to joina newoverflow group, which immediatly got5 people.
2) Now that decay is a factor, and noone wants to die anymore, Entertainment healing is almost nowhere to be found. This has produced new value for the disease weilding CM, but has made grouping even more important, to get a share of what healing there is to be had.
3) Buffs - the double edged sword. The ability to control buffs has given us musicians great power, but, depending on your perspective, drives you to either group or not group, depending on how kind you are or are not feeling. Grouping lets others in your group get passives buffs off you....but prevents others from gettting in and getting XP...and as a master in the cantina, many seek me out so that they heal faster, and if I'm solo thttakes EHxp from others...but if I'm grouped it concentrates it for others.
4) People don't even listen to the music anymore. Many times, I'll listen to a group and hear 2 OR MORE different songs being played. When I play a gig (party, wedding, etc) people always complement the sound. I don't know if its apathy or lasiness that has made people not care about how it sounds, but people have pulled theplug. This alone makes "performance" obsolete.
"The only winning move is not toplay" I only play if I'm invited for my sound, teaching,or if I'm buffing...and when I buff, I try to do that solo.
I do still AFK in the cantina, and I still AFK to help the other entertainers, but I do NOT play music. Now IAFK burning my mind with /tenddamage. Not only does it heal the performers, but I take 5 Focus and 5 Willpower wounds plus 2 points of battle fatigue. With a music buff I can inflict this on myself every 9 seconds for 2 hours (more if I had some real medic skills). Without, I can only do one every 18 seconds. this translates to about 5 EHXP per tick for everyone in the group I observe...Not a ton, but its how I can help. I will say I help to be nice, and I am and always try to be, but I also feel that, for some,if I help them get master faster, then they will leave the cantina for their next holo, and leave us more space. These people now know who I am andcome back to get buffs from me.
Gotta love the changes. This too shall pass.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Musican, Master Entertainer
Bandleader-Booking Agent for Frag's Puppies
President & CEO, Fragpuppie Enterprises & Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
Some of you need to understand that not everyone who goes AFK is out to "ruin things for you". Some have no other way.
here's a confession for ya... I finished master musician by AFK. Not because I found a stupid holocron, but because I REALLY wanted master musician! I was a musician in Beta... planned on being one in live too, but I got involved in helping a PA. Not just a pa, but one with aspirations of becoming a town. The pa needed an architect to help with housing it's members and organizing the future city. So my main character became dedicated to the PA.
Along comes the second account. Hey! I can use this one for musician! But with limited time I had after work being spent mostly on PA/city work, it was taking a long time. I was doing it all manually when I had the time.
Then comes player cities and my other dream... owning a cantina. Well great! Only masters can own cantinas and I was barely 3/4 up the tree! Along comes the afk macro. I had about 2 weeks to finish master!
Yes I did afk, but I had my own rules. Many nights before cities released I was up well past 2am grinding in the cantinas. If I was going AFK I joined the group and moved myself to the side. Mostly needing healing exp which was super hard to come by, I did not want to leach tips from those that were online. I always told the group leader to boot me if he needed the spot. I had /join in my macro anyway so I could get back in. And many times while AFKing I was actually there in the room and able to chat freely without worrying about keeping flourishes up for max exp.
... by being there I boosted other musician's exp per pulse. I was getting 100+exp per pulse at the end, which cut my time to master immensely!
... I NEVER accepted tips while AFK and if someone did tip me and I saw it I returned it via bank tip.
... I was never snubbed by an AFK entertainer group like I had been MANY times by musicians who just wanted to play with their buds even when the group was not full!
... I met some of the greatest people in AFK groups! I had more fun hanging out in large 20 person groups than I have in the whole time playing music. So much fun in fact that I occasionally found myself up past 4am! Half the folks might not have been there, but I kept running into the same crowds.
Before holocrons, the only people who did AFK were those who really wanted to be masters... to play the Nalargon or to play the higher level songs. These folks did it afk because grinding musician takes an insane amount of time. Those types of afkers were not harmful to the profession at all... they just gave you more folks who could play the narg and the virtuoso song... after playing SW1-3 forever, can you blame them?
I can't even be mad at the holo-musicians who drop MM right after they get it. They are just doing what they were told they have to. I'm mad at the devs for even suggesting such a stupid system as holocrons in the first place! Holos don't just ruin your profession... imagine what 50 holo architects can do to the price of houses that normal architects make their living at!
so, explain to me why someone, who afk's the last couple hundred thousand points to master, out of the desire to just get another highly skilled musician out there, is ruining anyone's game?? I've got what I've ALWAYS wanted now! The cantina is up. When I can't be there to play for the town, I leave myself playing afk, so someone is there to heal our people. I run a macro that will automatically join me to a group if invited and automatically change the song to match theirs. My community is served, they get healing... I am happy... now I can log in and play the music I love! I can now travel to all my old afk haunts and payback some of the folks who got me here by joining their groups and adding to their exp.
Its the socializing I always liked about entertainer, and now that I no longer have to worry about grind to get there, I can have fun with it!
Finally!
Salpoorin wrote:
Mostly needing healing exp which was super hard to come by[...]
... by being there I boosted other musician's exp per pulse. I was getting 100+exp per pulse at the end, which cut my time to master immensely!
This is an excuse I see made for AFK entertainers a lot. I'm boosting their xp! But you said so yourself - healing xp is the hard one. And your presense there doesn't do a lick of good.
... I NEVER accepted tips while AFK and if someone did tip me and I saw it I returned it via bank tip.
I know the tips thing is cried a lot in opposition to AFK entertainers. To my recollection I've never made that claim. (I could very well be wrong on that, I have a bad memory) It's not about the tips for me. Nor is it about the experience.
... I was never snubbed by an AFK entertainer group like I had been MANY times by musicians who just wanted to play with their buds even when the group was not full!
That's because someone who is AFK doesn't care if the music sounds good or bad, and is perfectly happy playing SW1 on their chid horn.
People who are actually there and like being musicians sometimes like to jam with people on songs that are not in the entertainer tree, or at least are high in the entertainer tree. I bet most of the times those musicians would have been more than happy to join you and play what you can play. But instead you point to the one time they said "No, we want to do a higher song right now." It's an unfortunate part of being musicians. Dancers don't have this problem.
... I met some of the greatest people in AFK groups! I had more fun hanging out in large 20 person groups than I have in the whole time playing music. So much fun in fact that I occasionally found myself up past 4am! Half the folks might not have been there, but I kept running into the same crowds.
Well if you weren't AFK and they weren't AFK it obviously wasn't an AFK groups. Have you ever been in a group of 20 people who were ALL at the keyboard? If you played much in the first mont you probably have. But it is rare I find such a group anymore. When I do it is something to treasure.. But even then, it's not the same anymore.. People aren't used to trying things together.
Before holocrons, the only people who did AFK were those who really wanted to be masters... to play the Nalargon or to play the higher level songs. These folks did it afk because grinding musician takes an insane amount of time. Those types of afkers were not harmful to the profession at all... they just gave you more folks who could play the narg and the virtuoso song... after playing SW1-3 forever, can you blame them?
Again this is something that goes against something you said earlier. Would you snub new entertainers to play Virtuoso, or would you tell them you're sick of SW1 and want to play something else for a few minutes?
Its the socializing I always liked about entertainer, and now that I no longer have to worry about grind to get there, I can have fun with it!
You're right, it is the socializing. But read some of my other posts. The problem with AFK is that if people can do it, they will. If people can't, then they will actually play the class. Sure some will throw up their hands and quit. But others who threw up their hands and quit when it was boring playing alone amid all the AFKers will actually find it's fun when the people who were borderline AFKers spend more time actually at the keyboard. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather the developers cater to people who play the class rather than macros who play the class. Maybe if you can write amacro to pony up the cash for the game, install it, create an account of it's own then I'd change my mind.
Now I did gloss over a big part of what you were saying, which is the most common defense for AFK entertainers. You say you always do it on the side, return tips, don't spam, suggest to kick you if room is needed, etc etc... How very altruistic of you. Maybe if everyone was like that I wouldn't have so much of a problem with it. I still wouldn't agree with it, but perhaps it wouldn't bug me quite as much. But here's a reality check - not everyone is like you. Heck, even some ATK entertainers do that kind of thing. But at least you can politely tell them "Hey.. You know if you keep asking for tips like that people will just see you as a beggar and be less likely to tip you, or will start spamming 1 credit tips. Just entertain them, and I mean REALLY entertain them, and the tips will come." The most you can do with an AFK entertainer is /ignore them. Does that fix the problem? Maybe the immediate problem - that the spam is annoying me. But it can be likened to sticking your head in the sand. The problem is still there, you just don't personally see it now. But guess who does - the people who you need to come and watch you to get experience, and tip you to get money, and talk with you to make friends. Are you going to tell them all to /ignore them too? Some of them will anyway. Others will just find somewhere else where they don't have to heara /shout every 5 minutes to come watch someone and tip them and blah blah blah.
All AFK gameplay is bad. Some just presents more of an immediate problem. But in the big picture, it just harms the experience for everyone. (And I don't mean experience points.)
I have a narlagon in my house, and one in my cantina. Every time I see them I think "I'd love to play that" and it drives me towards musician. But I am still a dancer at heart. I don't even remember what it's like to recieve dance xp I've been capped at 900k for so long. I could have spent that time having a macro grind music xp for me. I'd surely have been playing jeepers creepers onthe narlagon by now.. But it would be just another instrument and song for me then, not a sign of accomplishment. Some day I will play that narlagon though, and it will feel good because I earned it, just like it feels good to dance exotic3 and 4.
It all comes down to choice. You have to choose how you spend your time. You've chosen to devote your time to a PA. I applaud you for that. But now you want to be a musician too. Well, I'm a dancer so I'd love to be able to make my own clothes. But I don't want to be bothered having to grind my way through tailor. Should I makea macro for that? And I want to be able to defend myself when someone rude comes in and challenges me to a duel. Should I make a macro to get TKA? There are games that have literally become this - you just pick a class than find a macro for that class. Ask anyone who has actually played how fun it is.
Not to mention you could miss out on the delight of being told you now qualify for the last skill box you need before master.
My suggestion is to take this to SOE, because it is SOE that has created this monster.
The musican/dancer profession is not the only profession who suffers from 'holo-professions'. Everyone who has chosen to play a profession because they love it, are now forced to choose a different road, if one of their goals are to unlock the FSCS.
I have 3 accounts. I'm a Guild Leader. My first account/profession was Architect. I chose to do this to provide a PA Hall for our members. I leveled up Architect before you could grind your way through it in a few days. It took me a good 4-5 weeks to level up architect, and at the time I felt that was terrific. Guild Members helped me by providing resources. It was a team effort.
Because I chose Architect, and I am Guild Leader, I did not want to lay down our PA Hall and have it eat 9 lots on me (another rediculous game design implementation). So I obtained a 2nd account. This account does absolutely nothing but hold the PA Hall and administer guild management.
I kept my Architect account to support my guild members. Because SOE does not give you more than one account, I obtained yet a 3rd account to use as my combat guy. My goal was to become a Bounty Hunter because I felt it was one of the more challenging professions.
Pre-holo, Guilds worked together. They grouped. They found ways to hold events to bind the guild together. Folks took upprofessions to 'balance' the guild out...the mutual feeling was that if we needed a Doctor, someone would step up and volunteer to be this profession. Same was true for other professions that were needed for the guild to continue playing and functioning as a team.
Now, I see a sad state of affairs. It has not only affected my guild, but every guild in SWG. Gone are the 'team effort' priorities. In it's place, are self-agendas, spurred on by the Holo craze. Everyone would like a chance to open up a FSCS, and the only way they have of increasing their chances for this, is to follow a holocron's message.
The result of this is a trickle down effect to not only guilds, but the entire SWG population. Everyone is out for themselves. AFK macroing is a means to an end...a brutal grinding mechinism that no one enjoys. The Jedi System has turned this game into a grind fest unlike any other MMORPG before it. Perhaps the Devs thought that this system would spur folks on to discovering other professions and enjoying them. But it has backfired.
Now there are rotations of professions in my guild. I never know from one day to the next if my Master Armorsmith has chucked his profession because a holo told him to or not. I have no clue how many of my 90+ members have given up their professions and franctically are grinding away at Holo Profession #1, 2, 3, or 4. My entertainers, Master Musicians and Dancers absolutely LOVED their profession. And they were terrific at it. Then they got a holocron, and they gave it up. Just like that. Poof. I miss them. I miss their devotion to the profession, their wonderful dance/band routines... their dedication to those outside our guild to help other musicians/dancers in their goals.
And you know what? They hate it as well. They hate the fact that they have been forced to give up a profession they enjoyed and were dedicated to. But they also wanted an equal chance at trying to open up their FSCS. I can't blame them.
The Jedi System is probably the biggest cop out system for a MMORPG developed to date. With all the hype regarding opening up a FSCS, came the fun part of trying to discover exactly HOW to do this. I submit that 90% of the population felt it would not be a brutal system like one that is in place today. From power gamer to casual player, everyone felt that they had their 'own' path to follow. Discover an epic quest, fulfill hidden agendas like visiting POIs or dungeons, satisfying a factional measurement, and so on... these were the criteria we all were expecting... something profound, something that kept us together as a team, something that gave meaning to becoming a Jedi.
But, SOE let us down. Instead, we are the largest group of players ever, at any time, pre-SWG or anything out there on the horizon, who daily and willingly subject ourselves to a game design whose bottom lineis a corporate balance sheet... a means to keep you in this game for at least another year... a way to sink your time and your money, monthly, yearly. There is no greater mockery from a company than to give it's customers a product with a guarantee attached to it that to continue to enjoy using the product, you were forced to use it in a manner you did not want to use it in.
I truly sympathize with the musicians and entertainers and dancers who love their profession, yet see it reduced to an AFK Macroing system with players gritting their teeth just to get through it to fulfill a holo message.
But the blame does not belong on these players' shoulders.
It's belongs on SOE's shoulders.
Furthermore, to kill the macro system in SWG, you would probably kill 50% of the player base. So, that's clearly not the answer to your frustrations.
The only answer to this unacceptable system, is to create a Jedi System that truly adheres to the Jedi Creed, the Jedi training, and the path to attain it.
Anything less than that is unacceptable.
Tiaga wrote:
The AFK entertainer problem is not because of the holocron craze. It made it worse, sure, but the problem was already very bad before that.
Even so, the addition of the holocron craze has affected not only your profession but every other profession in the game. If you read the other profession boards, it's covered with those who are dedicated to a profession pointing out the same thing... those in holo professions are finding ways to bypass the normal leveling progression of any profession, not just the musician/dancer/entertainer. My whole point to my post was this: it's not the combat system, the crafting system, or any system in this game that will completely unbalance it.
It's the Jedi System.
Yes, I admit to it, I am a musician grinder / macrotainer. I play in Coronet in the biggest group to get the best xp. I have a macro to hit 2 flourishes every 10 seconds. I do not, however, play AFK. I always send a tell to someone that tips me, I teach skills to people that need them, and I join in any conversations I can. Sometimes I go AFK if I'm sitting here watching a movie or I go eat supper, it happens.AFKing is not all that bad. It would be nice to see more people active but its not going to happen. For the most part, if you do talk to someone and thank them for a tip/heal, theyare more likely tocome back to you.
Yes, I am doing Musician because my Holocron said to. This does not mean I am "one of those guys." I'd rather have gotten a different profession as my designated one, but I am making the most out of the one I got.
Pendarin wrote:
So what happened? Slowly but surely, the AFK entertainer trend started creeping up in places that were the most crowded. Why the most crowded? Because AFK entertainers are grinders and the most crowded places produce the most experience. How can I say that AFK entertainers are grinders? Because otherwise they'd be at the keyboard enjoying themselves since mastering the profession is *no different* than the road getting there. But i digress...
Why don't active entertainers go to the non-crowded areas? Because now there are not only no other entertainers, but there are no combatants either (they've all moved to the crowded areas where they can get healed). Let me point out that you're right...a solo entertainer with nobody to heal or talk to is, in fact, a very boring thing. (By the way, how is that any different than a room full of AFK people?)
This is the most important part of Pendarin's post. My entertainer spends his time on Wanderhome, living on Corellia. At present, the only entertainers anywhere on that planet (and in most of the galaxy) are in the Coronet Cantina. Asside from the lag time and visual overload this creates, the music sounds like total crap! People, these songs were meant to be played with one or two of each class of instrument, sounding best with a full band. Also, nobody tips in a crowded cantina. Two months ago, I could make up to 10k in a day from tips without even trying. Now I can't make a single red credit.
I must admit to macro-entertaining... but my longest AFK time is two minutes (entertainers do have to use the bathroom occasionally). If I'm going to away for any longer period (e.g. making food or watching Enterprise) I stop my music, sit in a chair, and (if necessary) log out! I use macros so I have typing time to shoot the breeze with the other entertainers.
If any of the devs (or our friendly local correspondant) read this, may I suggest that quality of sound rather than quantity should have greater effect on XP gained. The way to do this is make it soa diversity of different styles of instrument (i.e. different-sounding instruments) gives greater increase to XP (e.g. a full 5-piece band would make 2-3 times the XP of five guys playing slitherhorn variants). In addition there could a 1XP bonus for each person in the band flourishes the same as you (/bandflourish excluded... or make it so /bandflourish gives everybody XP).
That being said I agree that the annoying spam about tips and heals gets on my nerves, but there is nothing wrong with the afk entertainer in general as long as he follows a few rules:
1. Not in the middle of the floor.
2. Don't spam anything in spatial.
3. Not being able to join a big group because the leader is afk.
4. Not being able to join because the leader doesn't want to boot the afk entertainers.
I am at my keyboard more than away from it, but sometimes you gotta check the scores of last nights games, or go to the bathroom, or grab a drink...
WyldWookie wrote:
Hey look on the bright side...if there's an afk entertainer in your band you are also getting more exp
Which doesn't make a bit of difference since repeatedly people say it's the healing xp that is hardest to get, and having an extra person in the group doesn't change that at all.
What is wrong with AFK ents? ... In a word... EVERYTHING!
AFK ents ruin the industry... If you dont want to see the same flourishes over and over then dont do the profession cause it is the same forever. If its just because the cantina is empty... travel go play at camp sites do anything just dont go afk... You know its odd but he first 50 masters on my server (maybe more) went afk NOT ONCE! Weird how we all can do it and you cant... Maybe its cause we like it more then you and if thats so find a profession you like better.