Musician Archive
Thread: how to kill a buffbot
Heh ok, I do see the point in one-starring her for her message given thatother than the section about herself ithas no basis in fact. Message Edited by Tralmek on 07-13-2004 08:54 AM
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-13-2004 03:36 PM
PoetDancer wrote:
No no dear. There is nothing profound about your approach. In fact, your approach is boringly typical. And it goes something like this, "I provide a service, and if you don't like it, then don't use it." But this is short changing the question.
And the question is . . . ?????
I'm involved in every crafting profession except weaponsmith and armorsmith. And every single crafting profession (including master artisan) has people in it that have decided it is their god-given right to charge whatever they feel like charging for their goods. If they want to sell small houses for 4k, and mediums for 15k, then that is their right to do so, and they are very vocal about their rights. Much as I sympathize with most musicians for the state of the economy in regard to entertainers, you are not the only ones experiencing problems. I compete against people who are given harvesters, who are given money and power to put on those harvesters. They are given houses within cities that provide them with extra crafting points, and they are given extra lots from fellow guild members to put those harvesters on. So all the money they make from a sale is profit for them.
I do not have the luxury of a player city or a guild. I go out and do my own surveying, and put down harvesters on my own lots. I own my own vendors, and have the merchant skill points to own them all legally. But I compete against these other so-called merchants, who undercut any sort of decent prices. I can't do it by lowering prices, because I can't lower them below my cost of producing the item. So, how do I do it? I suppose I could complain to Sony, about how they are "ruining the game" for me, how I depend on my sales for money to be in the game. And perhaps Sony could implement some sort of nerfing of these people. I would enjoy that immensely.
However, I found that I could provide small essential services for some people. Word-of-mouth has spread, and I have sufficient small income to make it possible to enjoy the game, buy shuttle tickets without worrying about the price, and generally relax and have fun. I will never be a millionaire, but that means nothing.
Perhaps, instead of concentrating on what other people are doing (or not doing), it becomes incumbent upon you to make the game work. I found work-arounds to vendor and bazaar problems, and to the childish people who want to give away swoop bikes for 5k. I sometimes have people beg me to make a swoop bike for them, because they know that I only produce the highest quality products. Only happens every few months, but makes my day to realize that my integrity is what people remember in the game. I can think of several ways of working around this issue, but it is apparent that many of you don't want to work around the issue, so I won't bore you with possible solutions.
Now, if all you want to do in the game is figure out how to ruin someone else's gameplay, then nobody can stop you doing that. It just seems that all of that energy and creativity could go into something productive. But, hey, I'm just being boringly typical. I obviously don't understand the depth of the problem.
Feel free to give all the free doctor buffs you want. This doctor won't care.
Most doctors hide from buff customers anyway.
Warplex wrote:
Galanthias wrote:
So my question is why do you care if someone operates a buffbot? Does it affect you?
Uh, yes it does. Since you are obviously so self centered i don't know what point there is in responding, but i will anyway. If an extremely rich person decided to become a doctor, walked into coronet and started giving doctor buffs, for free, don't you think that doctors would be pissed? Of course, people like you would accuse those doctors of being "petty" and "whiners".
That's why I have my own. No skin off my nose if I have to sit there for two minutes pushing buttons.
Kreistor wrote:
LadyGrey wrote:
So how boring has the game become, when you start plotting ways to disrupt someone else's gameplay?
lol, funny you should ask that, LadyGrey, because BuffBots have been disrupting our gameplay longer than you even realize.
They ruin our reputations, take away our income, and drive away Live Entertainers because they can't compete with the 24/7 service they provide. That's right, the reason you may not be able to find live entertainers is because your buffbot and others like it drive us away.
Have fun finding someone to buff you when the Devs finally find a way to deal with your Bot making it illegal
Message Edited by Vermicious_Knid on 07-13-2004 06:01 PM
LadyGrey wrote:
1) If there is anATK person doing buffs, most likely players will use that person, rather than someone who is buffbotting.2) However, if there isn't an ATK musician, then there should be an AFK musician stationed to provide that service.
1) Most of the time, the players line up around the buffbot because it is an impersonal way for them to get a buff, and requires almost no player to player interaction, and most of the time they can get it for free. The only real time i've been tipped for being a musician and not buffing is when i've gotten into a pissing match with the buffbot's supporters (i usually win, what do i care if a templater doesn't go to me for services?).
2) Most of the time, the ATK musicians are directly competing with the AFK musicians... and losing. Though i could see the benefits of having a buffbot on when there are no ATK musicians, like at 3:00 AM. But make no mistake: players seek out the buffbot before they'd think to look for an ATK musician, regardless of if that ATK musician is right next to the buffbot.
LadyGrey wrote:
I'm involved in every crafting profession except weaponsmith and armorsmith. And every single crafting profession (including master artisan) has people in it that have decided it is their god-given right to charge whatever they feel like charging for their goods. If they want to sell small houses for 4k, and mediums for 15k, then that is their right to do so, and they are very vocal about their rights.
A better analogy would be if every serverhad crafters that were putting all goods available in the gameon the bazaar for free, in unlimited quantity, and at identical quality to what everyone elsecould produce. Imagine then that there were perhapsmore crafters doing this than ones actually trying to play the game as crafters. Sales would become nearly impossible. Now imagine that SOE did nothing to prevent people from doing this, even though the game economy would completely crash for crafters.Many crafters would give up on the game entirely, as it had been obviously ruined. Some crafters would desperately try to find a way to save the playstyle and professions that they really loved.
Perhaps, instead of concentrating on what other people are doing (or not doing), it becomes incumbent upon you to make the game work. I found work-arounds to vendor and bazaar problems, and to the childish people who want to give away swoop bikes for 5k. I sometimes have people beg me to make a swoop bike for them, because they know that I only produce the highest quality products.
Again though... we have a just a bit of apples and oranges here. The only distinctions between the highest quality products in entertainer buffing is duration (did you remember to flourish the required number of times?) and percentage (assuming equal skill levels, only affected by very expensive SEAs). The system does not have any inherent benefits for players who actually play the professions, and that is not a good thing. Adding some benefits to ATK players' healing and buffing abilities may be one possible solution to help this, but there has been nothing but silence from the devs on anything regarding any of our issues for... well, forever. Until there is some measure of distinction in quality of these game mechanics, entertainers cannot rely on producing higher quality for premium (to be read, any?) pricing.
Now, if all you want to do in the game is figure out how to ruin someone else's gameplay, then nobody can stop you doing that.
I really have to say it here. Unattended avatars are not being played, they are automated.A buffbot is not gameplay, nor is it a play style. It is nothing more than a background sub-routine. Why somepeople (and this ismore a general comment on what many others have said, not just your post here) still think of an AFK macro running while the owner sleeps or is at work is a"style" of playing the game, is beyond my rational thought.Itjust defies logic, in mymind.
The only possible connection to "gameplay" or "play style" that can come in with any AFK automation is either to:
a.) Gain game benefits without actually playing the game. Unless one considers that the sole purpose of "playing"SWG is to be able to write (or more often copy/paste) a relatively simplemacro. If SWG is intended to be nothing more than a simple excercise in basic coding, this works fine. If not, then gaining benefits without playing the game is treading dangerously close to the E word... exploit. Or,
b.) Gaining game benefits for a 'main' character from an alt. This is where the "I paid the extra $15/month, so I can do this" thing comes in... and if it really was just for the benefit of the owner and friends, the argument holds a bit more weight. Setting up public buffbots that replace the interdependent functioning of three entire professions, however, is another story.
If this latter point is more in line with your comment about gameplay, we must also consider the ruining of the gameplay of the entertainer players by the presence of recursive macros allowing for full automation of our interdependent roles in the game. And I really think that the recent desires rising upin the entertainer community to find ways of killing buffbots is a product of frustration... frustration that our preferred play style has been nearly destroyed, and the devs have done nothing about it. We stay in these professions because we still think there could be hope that the social playstyle experiment will work, and when it is working, we have a great time! When we've been largely replaced by machines, and the powers that be on the one hand make mention elsewhere that they believe that AFK is not healthy for the game, and on the other cannot find the time to correct the problems, that some people are ready to go vigilante and take matters into their own hands.
Some buffbot owners, after reading the various entertainer forums, came to understand how that activity was harming our enjoyment of the game, and our playstyle as a whole, and volunteered to stop. They honestly believed that they were being helpful to others by providing that 23/7 'service', and did not realize that it was hurting many others.
Many, many more - even after coming to know how damaging the presence of bots is to others' gameplay - could care less, and are even quite nasty about it all.A lot of entertainer players feel thatknowingly damagingthe players of thesocial playstyleenjoyment of the gameistantamount to griefing, and it may well be.
There isa very large problem for the entire set of entertainer professionswhen a culture is developed where the unattended bot isdoling out all ofour intended revenue-generating interdependentservices for no charge. You mentioned earlier that people should look for the ATK performer first... well, they're not very often. They have been conditioned to make that bee-line straight to the bot, push the button, get free buff, and run off. As I understand it, the intention behind entertainer buffs was to provide us with something salable, and something that would further tie our professions into the desired interdependency of thegreater game environment. Buffbots degenerate those intentions into complete backfire... and if the devs are too busy with the combat balance and Jedi to take steps to correct those mistakes, we can't be surprised if players eventually wish to do whatever is at their disposal to try to preserve the professions, and the playstyle, thatthey love.
Tralmek wrote:
She even used proper grammar...mmm...mostly.
Vermicious_Knid wrote:
That's why I have my own. No skin off my nose if I have to sit there for two minutes pushing buttons.
No, it's just an extra $15 you spend for no reason at all. I just don't understand spending money for absolutely nothing. *shrug* whatever, your cash. Waste it however you want.
Warplex wrote:
LadyGrey wrote:
1) If there is anATK person doing buffs, most likely players will use that person, rather than someone who is buffbotting.2) However, if there isn't an ATK musician, then there should be an AFK musician stationed to provide that service.
1) Most of the time, the players line up around the buffbot because it is an impersonal way for them to get a buff, and requires almost no player to player interaction, and most of the time they can get it for free. The only real time i've been tipped for being a musician and not buffing is when i've gotten into a pissing match with the buffbot's supporters (i usually win, what do i care if a templater doesn't go to me for services?).
2) Most of the time, the ATK musicians are directly competing with the AFK musicians... and losing. Though i could see the benefits of having a buffbot on when there are no ATK musicians, like at 3:00 AM. But make no mistake: players seek out the buffbot before they'd think to look for an ATK musician, regardless of if that ATK musician is right next to the buffbot.
I agree with you Warplex. Yesterday we had many members of our band playing in the same cantina as the afk buff bot who got her badge. We advertised the presence of our band and that we were live entertainment. We did get quite a few who came in to see us perform and visit with us, but it was no where near the amount of people who were gathered around the buffbot getting buffed. Unless someone is all for live entertainment and against buffbots, I hardly get requests for buffs anymore. People on the most part do not seek out ATK musicians anymore. It would be too much effort when all they have to do is be on the buffbots list. No talking, just stand there, go afk yourself so you don't have to listen to the same virtuoso song you hear everytime from her, come back, tip if you feel like it and run off.
The buffbots are killing the social aspect of this game, and if SOE isn't careful and address this I have a feeling they are going to loose more customers. People don't have to role play and they get burned out eventually on the grind. Since they can't seem to find anything else to do when they don't feel like hunting (like visit in a cantina and watch a show) they get bored and quit. I have had many friends now who have complained that there is nothing to do when they are tired of hunting and feel like just visiting....although they can't find someone to talk to in a cantina and so they have left the game. Since buffs didn't used to exist, I think that SOE did have the right idea of what entertainers were for in the begining.
rebus_ks wrote:
This is demonstrably false. Toward the end of Cantina Crawl VII, which was great fun, we all invaded Coronet Cantina. There were two groups of dancers, one with many masters, and one group of musicians, again with many masters. I don't know about the group with more masters because I was leading the group of less experienced dancers, but I was wearing my Master Dancer title and the only time I ever got requests for anything was when I grouped the local buff-bot. What were the tells? Things like "group me plz." I am a Master Dancer and live, but they didn't want my buff.
I have weighed in on this before, and having a doc avatar I get quite a few "buffing?" requests... I have also mastered entertainer and worked in musician for a while on my main.. so I am not coming into this discussion blindly..
I would look for ATK entertainers for a buff if I felt that there was a reasonable chance for me to get one. I spent several months politely asking every master musician and master dancers that I came across if they were willing to buff.. I was willing to pay 20k a buff, not for both but EACH just to get a mind buff.
Universally it was those entertainers either ignoring me, saying they dropped the profession (while flying title?), saying they didnt know how (come on, -i- figured it out, so can someone who masters the profession) and other nonsenical answers..
The time comes when it is no longer worth my time to seek out a "live" entertainer for a mind buff. Dont get me wrong, if I actually see one advertise I will head to them.. but the LAST time I have seen such advertising from anyone BUT a buffbot is about 2 months ago. and I hit the heaviest cantinas and all the others as I wander the planets.
I can count the number of live master musicians and dancers I have seen in the last month on one hand... or at least live to the rest of us not in their entertainer group...
I go out of my way to tip medics who heal me, I go out of my way to try and find novice or non-mastered entertainers who are AT the keyboard when I need mindwounds and BF healed and I make sure I tip them as well... I -want- to support your community.. I -want- to purchase my buffs from people there.. but what is the point of those wants when I cannot FIND you to do it?
So unless you as a community step up to the plate and be willing to sell this service you are GOING to see these buffbots continue in cantinas... it is pretty sad I know, but it seems to be a fact...
Muria wrote:
The buffbots are killing the social aspect of this game, and if SOE isn't careful and address this I have a feeling they are going to loose more customers. People don't have to role play and they get burned out eventually on the grind. Since they can't seem to find anything else to do when they don't feel like hunting (like visit in a cantina and watch a show) they get bored and quit. I have had many friends now who have complained that there is nothing to do when they are tired of hunting and feel like just visiting....although they can't find someone to talk to in a cantina and so they have left the game. Since buffs didn't used to exist, I think that SOE did have the right idea of what entertainers were for in the begining.
So, on one hand you say that people flock to the AFK musicians and dancers and buffbotters, and yet on the other hand they are killing the social aspect of this game. I find that rather contradictory. What is it that the majority of players (non-entertainers) want? Do they want to interact or not? If they don't really want to interact, then nothing you change about the game will make them interact. If they want to interact, then all you have to do is create your ATK groups of dancers and musicians, and they will search you out.
When I get a request to buff someone, they usually do not want to interact and visit. They want a nice quick 3 or 6 minute buff, where they can go AFK and take a break for a few minutes. If they want to interact and visit, they find someone who is ATK in a cantina, and sit down and talk for a while.
It is not inherently evil to do either one of these. It is a type of gameplay no matter what. You are either taking a girl out for a nice dinner and a show, or you slip an envelope with some money in it under the pillow. This is gameplay. There are no established rules. There is no way to force people to do things the "right" way. In other professions, we asked for the devs to come in and "fix" stuff so that the game was more what we imagined it to be. You know what happened? They came in and "fixed" stuff, and ever since we wondered why we ever made a fuss. The musicians asked for changes, and what did they get? A few obnoxious droids, and an obnoxious pause before you can start playing again, and we still can't keep an omni box or nalargon targeted long enough to play it. Go ahead and ask for change. And then you will turn around and complain about the changes. Just like all the rest of us did. But we must each tend our own garden, and follow the same worn path.
Good journey to you all, and good luck getting what you really want.