Musician Archive
Thread: Recursive macros are being removed!
LyteFoot
Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:16 pm
#171
Thanks for the clarification and I'm glad you feel that way as a new player.
EotchajCrestingcloud
Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:51 am
#172
NewJedi wrote:
I know another poster has already posted a link, but on occasion developments are important enough that they warrant a separate post by a Correspondent to ensure that no one misses the news. Yes, the recursive macro is going away! I've lobbied for this change for months -- really since last year. I'm sort of stunned that they're actually going to do the right thing. YAY! The post is at
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=44991
I sure wish this wasn't the case. There is a much easier way to eliminate the burden of AFK grinding without making everybody stand around and press buttons instead of being sociable: Enforce the AFK flag after a period of time (say 15 mins) and enforce a disconnect after a second period of time (say, another 15 mins). Tada! No more AFK grinding. Yes, there will still be people using 3rd party macros to prevent the AFK flag, but those people will also use the 3rd party macros to get around the elimination of recursive macros.
I think it's a bad idea for entertainers.
Cudayn
Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:54 am
#173
EotchajCrestingcloud wrote:
NewJedi wrote:
I know another poster has already posted a link, but on occasion developments are important enough that they warrant a separate post by a Correspondent to ensure that no one misses the news. Yes, the recursive macro is going away! I've lobbied for this change for months -- really since last year. I'm sort of stunned that they're actually going to do the right thing. YAY! The post is at
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=44991
I sure wish this wasn't the case. There is a much easier way to eliminate the burden of AFK grinding without making everybody stand around and press buttons instead of being sociable: Enforce the AFK flag after a period of time (say 15 mins) and enforce a disconnect after a second period of time (say, another 15 mins). Tada! No more AFK grinding. Yes, there will still be people using 3rd party macros to prevent the AFK flag, but those people will also use the 3rd party macros to get around the elimination of recursive macros.
I think it's a bad idea for entertainers.
I find it very interesting, even with my own point of view, that a lot of people find this issue black or white. I like to think I am a very liberal, moderate type of person. I try my best to look at both sides and then try to find a solution that works best.
In the case of the removal of {recursive} macros, we all need to understand that you can write very long macros. Period. There is no need for a recursive macro, and for those that do not understand what a recursive macro is, it is the ability to call another macro or recall itself from within its own program. Therefore it loops endlessly.
The removal of the recursive macro would be a tremendous help in that if you are not in front of the PC to restart your macro, you stop playing after a bit. After you have done nothing for a bit, you eventually auto afk and the system will kick you offline.
Thanks to the recursive macro, it makes how some people play the game a very easy choice. They choose to play with a minimum of effort on their part.
(Why in the heck would I ever want to "play" a game whereI had to actually "work" at having to build a character? Where is the fun in having to put in all that work? And furthermore, why does everyone get so upset whenI leave my toon running a buff macro in the coronet cantina? I am providing a very legitimate service here! )
If you have to work to become the best you can be within your choosen profession, it should give you a certain amount of pride to having done it, as well as giving you a sense of accomplishment. And besides, there is written no where that working towards a goal has to be un-fun. You get out of a character, what you put into it, in most cases. About someone leaving a buffbot running. I play this game to be social and to not only entertain, but to help people. I choose to be an entertainer rather than a combat character, because I understood that I would be able to interact with everyone else because they would "need" me to help them and i wanted to be in that position, yetI didn't want to go the traditional way and be a doctor or medic.
When people are running buffbots or even AFKtaining, no matter how good the intentions, they remove a part of the game from me that I enjoy, just because the game will allow them to do so and it is not against TOS, at this time. But we have had several post from a couple of different Developers about the fact that AFKing of any sort was not intended. They will fix the problem, but right now they have bigger fish to fry ( JTL).
I still boggle at the people who try to justify AFK play, for any reason besides having to take a break every so often. If the ability to use recursive macros is not eventually removed, then you may as well remove the entertainer classes from the game.
I can not condone the lazy play that the current macro system allows. Thanks to the macro system and people abusing it, yes abusing, I do not feel a sense of accomplishment or pride in being an entertainer anymore. Simply because the AFK way to master is such a cheap way to level a character. Anyone who has AFKed their way to any mastery in any profession should be very ashamed because they did not earn their titles at all.
The only thing I am still proud of is the fact that, for the most part, my character has remained largely unchanged since the beginning of the game and of course, the great community here that actually give a damn about our worthiness to ourselves and to the rest of the community.
Durney
Master Entertainer / Master Musician / Master Image Designer
P.S. Its also a shame that this has to be continually rehashed. Recursive macro removal will NOT kill the macro system, you just have to press a button every 5- 10 minutes. If you honestly can not be bothered enough to press a button every five to ten minutes, then maybe, just maybe you should consider another form of entertainment so that those of us who do enjoy our professions can play again unfettered and unrestricted by those who so devalue us and our profession.
EotchajCrestingcloud
Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:01 am
#174
Cudayn wrote:
EotchajCrestingcloud wrote:
I sure wish this wasn't the case. There is a much easier way to eliminate the burden of AFK grinding without making everybody stand around and press buttons instead of being sociable: Enforce the AFK flag after a period of time (say 15 mins) and enforce a disconnect after a second period of time (say, another 15 mins). Tada! No more AFK grinding. Yes, there will still be people using 3rd party macros to prevent the AFK flag, but those people will also use the 3rd party macros to get around the elimination of recursive macros.
I think it's a bad idea for entertainers.
I find it very interesting, even with my own point of view, that a lot of people find this issue black or white. I like to think I am a very liberal, moderate type of person. I try my best to look at both sides and then try to find a solution that works best.
In the case of the removal of {recursive} macros, we all need to understand that you can write very long macros. Period. There is no need for a recursive macro, and for those that do not understand what a recursive macro is, it is the ability to call another macro or recall itself from within its own program. Therefore it loops endlessly.
The removal of the recursive macro would be a tremendous help in that if you are not in front of the PC to restart your macro, you stop playing after a bit. After you have done nothing for a bit, you eventually auto afk and the system will kick you offline.
Thanks to the recursive macro, it makes how some people play the game a very easy choice. They choose to play with a minimum of effort on their part.
(Why in the heck would I ever want to "play" a game whereI had to actually "work" at having to build a character? Where is the fun in having to put in all that work? And furthermore, why does everyone get so upset whenI leave my toon running a buff macro in the coronet cantina? I am providing a very legitimate service here! )
If you have to work to become the best you can be within your choosen profession, it should give you a certain amount of pride to having done it, as well as giving you a sense of accomplishment. And besides, there is written no where that working towards a goal has to be un-fun. You get out of a character, what you put into it, in most cases. About someone leaving a buffbot running. I play this game to be social and to not only entertain, but to help people. I choose to be an entertainer rather than a combat character, because I understood that I would be able to interact with everyone else because they would "need" me to help them and i wanted to be in that position, yetI didn't want to go the traditional way and be a doctor or medic.
When people are running buffbots or even AFKtaining, no matter how good the intentions, they remove a part of the game from me that I enjoy, just because the game will allow them to do so and it is not against TOS, at this time. But we have had several post from a couple of different Developers about the fact that AFKing of any sort was not intended. They will fix the problem, but right now they have bigger fish to fry ( JTL).
I still boggle at the people who try to justify AFK play, for any reason besides having to take a break every so often. If the ability to use recursive macros is not eventually removed, then you may as well remove the entertainer classes from the game.
I can not condone the lazy play that the current macro system allows. Thanks to the macro system and people abusing it, yes abusing, I do not feel a sense of accomplishment or pride in being an entertainer anymore. Simply because the AFK way to master is such a cheap way to level a character. Anyone who has AFKed their way to any mastery in any profession should be very ashamed because they did not earn their titles at all.
The only thing I am still proud of is the fact that, for the most part, my character has remained largely unchanged since the beginning of the game and of course, the great community here that actually give a damn about our worthiness to ourselves and to the rest of the community.
Durney
Master Entertainer / Master Musician / Master Image Designer
P.S. Its also a shame that this has to be continually rehashed. Recursive macro removal will NOT kill the macro system, you just have to press a button every 5- 10 minutes. If you honestly can not be bothered enough to press a button every five to ten minutes, then maybe, just maybe you should consider another form of entertainment so that those of us who do enjoy our professions can play again unfettered and unrestricted by those who so devalue us and our profession.
I guess my deeper meaning is that since "unattended play" is against the EULA, then SOE should eliminate the ability to have "unattended play" not make it more difficult for people that are at the keyboard.
Cudayn
Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:29 am
#175
EotchajCrestingcloud wrote:
*Snip*
I guess my deeper meaning is that since "unattended play" is against the EULA, then SOE should eliminate the ability to have "unattended play" not make it more difficult for people that are at the keyboard.
Withthe recursive macro there is nota good way to detect unattended gameplay as you do not have to flag yourself as being afk. If you want to enforce an auto kick for anyone AFK for 15 minutes, then no one is going to go AFK. All you have to do is add a few emotes and tells to a macro. You can even change it up every few days to make sure you are not getting tracked.
The only way you can really enforce non AFK play is by devoting man power. They can either do away with the recursive macro, they can write a program that will be much like the sampling pop up, and if you do not respond within five minutes, it will kick you offline ( The sampling macro doesn't do that however ), or they can field a lot of CSRs to be the AFK police. If they send you a tell and you do not respond, they boot you. If you come back on in a minute and you had just stepped away for a break, no biggy, they just apologize and we all go about our business.
The popup method is very intrusive and would be hated by everyone, so they don't want to dop that. Having the AFK police out in force takes away from things the CSRs could otherwise be doing, like helping people with true gameplay problems. Of the three methodsI mentioned, only the removal of the recursive macro makes the least impact. You can still run very long macros, but you will NOT be able to stay online 23 hours out of the day without the help of a third party macro, which could be used to defeat the popup method as well as well.
I fail to see a significant loss to the entertainer world by the remval of the recursive macro.
Durney
Master Entertainer / Master Musician / Master Image Designer
Rotain
Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:16 am
#176
I sat here and typed out some excellent points if i do say so myself and then scrubed it 
I think i am now in the crowd of people who are totally frustrated with the current state of the game but i am in disappointed with some of the short sightedness going on from SOE.
Removing "recursive" macros from the game SHOULD kill spammers and BUFF bots. I don't think it will.
"Water will always find the easiest path to go down".
People will just get external key typers and pressers. Doing this is not going to solve any of the problems in game. They need to remove macros full stop. Even then i don't thats going to help because there needs to be someway for people to do the command and while theres a way to do it the key pressers and clicker bot robot programs come into play.
TBH i really don't see how SOE can stop spam botts unless they code in stuff to stop you typing the same command ten times in a row. Even then if you look at it this is how the game works! Its a repeat many times type game.
Greed and anti social behavour sum up this game atm
Anti social behavour by the people running buff botts and spammers. Greed by the people in the "SOLO" groups. But simply put its the easiest way to play the game.
*sigh*
I think i am now in the crowd of people who are totally frustrated with the current state of the game but i am in disappointed with some of the short sightedness going on from SOE.Removing "recursive" macros from the game SHOULD kill spammers and BUFF bots. I don't think it will.
"Water will always find the easiest path to go down".
People will just get external key typers and pressers. Doing this is not going to solve any of the problems in game. They need to remove macros full stop. Even then i don't thats going to help because there needs to be someway for people to do the command and while theres a way to do it the key pressers and clicker bot robot programs come into play.
TBH i really don't see how SOE can stop spam botts unless they code in stuff to stop you typing the same command ten times in a row. Even then if you look at it this is how the game works! Its a repeat many times type game.
Greed and anti social behavour sum up this game atm
Anti social behavour by the people running buff botts and spammers. Greed by the people in the "SOLO" groups. But simply put its the easiest way to play the game.*sigh*
LyteFoot
Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:44 am
#177
Once it is impossible to be AFK using ingame mechanics the CSR's can enforce the TOS. If you can't be AFK with official, ingame tools then you are in violation and can be reported and stopped. I agree there are lots of 3rd party tools but those are expressly forbidden and give live ents grounds for reporting AFK activity. The problem today is that there is no way to know if its a 3rd party program or a native macro so the CSR's can't do anything
EotchajCrestingcloud
Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:13 am
#179
NewJedi wrote:
Well said, Lytefoot. That's the plan, as I understand it.
WOOT! Yes, please. Leave the macros alone and just eliminate AFK play.
fett3041
Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:18 am
#180
Rotain wrote:
I sat here and typed out some excellent points if i do say so myself and then scrubed it
Removing "recursive" macros from the game SHOULD kill spammers and BUFF bots. I don't think it will.
"Water will always find the easiest path to go down".
People will just get external key typers and pressers. Doing this is not going to solve any of the problems in game. They need to remove macros full stop. Even then i don't thats going to help because there needs to be someway for people to do the command and while theres a way to do it the key pressers and clicker bot robot programs come into play.
TBH i really don't see how SOE can stop spam botts unless they code in stuff to stop you typing the same command ten times in a row. Even then if you look at it this is how the game works! Its a repeat many times type game.
Greed and anti social behavour sum up this game atm
*sigh*
I think there are two things on the horizon that will make a significant dent on both buffbots and AFKers in general:
Halo 2
EverQuest 2
Many ofthe 'uber' PVPers who just have to have a buff at all hours, are going to be jumping on the Halo online bandwagon. And the 'I have to be the best, first' crowd will have ample fun in EQ2.
I see both of these making more of an impact and sooner than anything the devs ever get around to doing.
NewJedi
Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:08 pm
#181
Erp, I may have been misunderstood. I meant that the plan is to modify but not eliminate macro functionality, in such a way that it is possible to distinguish between a bot and a "live" player, as Lytefoot suggested. There will still be macros; but they won't be permitted to repeat themselves for hours on end.
Atlantiss
Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:15 pm
#182
NewJedi wrote:
Erp, I may have been misunderstood. I meant that the plan is to modify but not eliminate macro functionality, in such a way that it is possible to distinguish between a bot and a "live" player, as Lytefoot suggested. There will still be macros; but they won't be permitted to repeat themselves for hours on end.
As long as i can run my flourishes so that i can chat with people and not have to worry about stabbing a button every 10 seconds i'm happy