Musician Archive
Thread: Master Dancer and Master Musician equity
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Lnaith
Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:36 pm
#1
I wish I had created a human male dancer/musician that looked old and had a big belly. I could have named him Rodney Dangerfield because he wouldn't get any respect.
Master dancers and musicians (hereafter called MDM's) don't get any respect. Let me clarify what I'm saying. Unlike most other professions, we don't set a price for what we do. We provide valuable buffs that increase focus, willpower and mind, but we basically depend o nthe generosity of other players to be paid for the benefit provided. Many players who provide these buffs would rather not sit at their keyboards and watch their character do the same thing hour after hour. This has to be expected and sympathised with since unlike most other professions, we can't entertain in any other venue except a cantina or a temporary camp. We could sit in front of our computers and choose to invite other players into a group to try and get a set price, that's true. However, it's long been established through playing that most MDM's will entertain first, then wait to see if the person recieving the buff will tip them something. This would be wonderful if players actually respected what services they have recieved and paid for it accordingly. I've found this doesn't happen. In an eight hour plus continuous music/dance buff session over 40 people availed themselves of my buffing, but only 3 people actually tipped. That's less than 1 in 10. There's no point attempting to set a price prior to inviting anyone into a buff group. There are too many MDM's who are willing to leave a character on one SWG account performing a buff macro AFK while they have fun playing another character on a second account. Anyone trying to set a price for services performed would be ignored while players go to the 'free' buffers. This is an unfair situation for any player who wants to be a MDM as a profession but has only one account.
I have some suggestions...
1 Since MDM's must entertain in a cantina, why not set an 'entry fee'? Players with artisan skill management lvl3? (the third skill tree from the left) can make an entry fee on their houses before other players can come in to check their vendors so the mechanics for doing this would be similar. Every cantina, both NPC and players, could assess a fee for every player wanting to enter. Something small, say 500 credits.
2. Inside every cantina place microphones that only MDM's can use and MUST use in order to buff.MDM's must pay a small 'performance fee' to activate the mike, say 1000 credits, or perhaps none at all. They must remain within a certain distance of the microphone in order to buff. They must start entertaining within 30 seconds after registering with a microphone otherwise they lose the credits spent activating it. This would be similar to the stage manager quests needed to get the 'country music songsheet'. The microphone would remain active for 1 hour after which the person must activate it again with another 'performance fee' payment. If the player stops entertaining at any time during the hour they will need to pay the performance fee again.
3. Place the microphone inside the cantina in rooms not visible from the entryway so that anyone standing outside the cantina cannot 'see or listen' to any MDM's inside.
4. For players just starting the profession, give them 5 'entry chits' so that they can enter a cantina to begin learning their new profession without having to use precious starter credits, similar to the temporary speederbikes given to new players when starting a new character.
5. Disregard the 'entry fee' for camps, since they have a timer and would require a player to attend to their character anyway in order to buff people continuously outside cities. Perhaps this would make rangers and scouts more valuable as a profession?
With regards to the entry fee, every MDM on the server would recieve a portion of ALL entry fees from every cantina on the server for the time that they areusing a microphone. MDM's would be able to spread to places other than the usual Theed, Coronet, Dantooine mining outpost and Dathomir science outpost cantina. I believe this would get many MDM's to return to their guild city cantina since they would be gauranteed a payment for entertaining. This would increase the benefit of player cities. MDM's who are not guilded can still choose to entertain in a NPC cantina, or set up in a guild cantina (assuming they aren't banned for any reason). The 'Register Location' command would actually have a useful purpose again as players looking for buffs could travel to the closest cantina rather than the 'usual' locations mentioned above.
With regard to the microphone, MDM's would buff as normal for a 1 hour period. The location of the microphones would ensure they don't try to entertain near a cantina entryway. Setting a performance fee would give them incentive to begin entertaining rather than lose 1000 creditsversus getting any entry fees for 30 seconds. Or begin crediting them from the time they start entertaining without charging any performance fee. The entry fee credits could be banked after server reset. The 1 hour timer prevents people from AFK macroing forever, or at least makes it more difficult. The lossof the microphone if a player stops entertaining would prevent people from leaving their character unattended and running out of action while still recieving credits from entry fees.
One more thing... WHY ON EARTH did the dev's make Twi'lek have a bonus to BF and wound heal and then make them, the most obvious entertainer choice, unable to maintain an action bar for more than one MDM buff session? (at least without any other assistance like a doctor action buff or food)
I apologise for any spelling errors.
Frilans
Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:05 am
#2
I found several good ideas in the original post. Maybe dev's should focus on Entertainer Quests more deeply in order to give them something trhilling. I dunno if that's already stablished since I've been out from the boards/game for 3 months.
But, psikobunny, you are sadly admitting that MM and MD are professions to be played AFK and only to give benefits to other players:
[...]"When I play, its to hang out with people. Yes its too bad we cluster in major cities, but in the course of swg history we went where the people went, not vice versa"[...]
I understand that you are playing for solely social purposes, while some other people wnat to be able to play as an entertainer for 4 hours, socializing too, but having some kind of reward for their work.
I, as a carabineer, use to play to hang out with my friends... but I get huge rewards each time I go for adventure with them (Thrills, Cash, XP, Landscapes...) I guess you Ents should have some thrilling rewards too.
psikobunny
Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:42 am
#3
I admit no such thing regarding AFK play, and I do not play my entertainer for solely social reasons. You've never seen one of my shows, and nothing in what I typed can logically point to those conclusions, so you're not one to judge.
My point was, the poster is out of touch with the entertainment community, unless they are a confirmed lurker of the Entertainer boardsor have an entertainer of their own.As a personwho cares about entertaining in SWG, and play it Live, I want to be able to do whatI do, provide a useful service to the rest of the community and earn a reward ifI do it well. However I don't want to jump through hoops to provide my service, and I don't want people to look on me as an enforced burden. Fighting for a mic or scouring the globe for an open spot, then doing my time, to be handed my reward from money people are forced to pay as a barrier to access, isnt the way to go. From my time as an Entertainer, and my reading of our Profession Forums, I think I can safely say that not many other Entertainers would care for it either.
psikobunny
Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:54 pm
#4
A few questions:
Have you played an Entertainer to the point of Mastery?
Have you read the Entertainer/Musician/Dancer forums?
Why post this here in this forum?
How will it help us to make what we do harder?
I am not really thrilled with the idea of travelling from town to town to find an "open mic" When I play, its to hang out with people. Yes its too bad we cluster in major cities, but in the course of swg history wewentwhere the people went, not vice versa. Enforcing a diaspora will mean there would be a few entertainers who "got the mic" in the major cantinas, while the rest are in the boonies, relying on the entry fee payouts and hoping someone drops by.
Lnaith
Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:13 pm
#5
I posted this AS a MDM, I have a master dancer, master musician, master entertainer. I would like to find a way for people with multiple accounts to stop monopolizing the few locations that people cluster in. An AFK macroer who provides 'free' buffs takes away from anyone trying to make any credits with a one accountMDMprofession. Seriously, after a while, no one uses other players' MDM's because they know that the AFK macro buff-bot will be there, they know that if they don't wantto, they don't have to tip, they know that they will get the same buff from a buff-bot as from a player sitting at his keyboard. Anyone else who is providing a 'at their keyboard' service is IGNORED. And if you think that a person with a buff-bot that advertises the service as free NEVER gets tips, you're dreaming. They do a dis-service to other players who have put effort into being a MDM because players expect to use their service for free whenever they need it. For example... I watched for an 8 hour shift as multiple people used my character to recieve buffs and only 3 people tipped me. That's THREE people out of over 40 who used my character, and want to know the grand total for tips? 26,500. I play a Twi'lek and have to either get a doc buff for quickness (not many doctors like buffing a single stat) or use food to enhance my quickness. You can guess what a crate of food might cost. I didn't even break even. What with the AFK macro-bot in Coronet taking pretty much every person coming into the cantina, and the other popular cluster spots filled with 3-4 other MDM's, there's just no way to compete with the 'free' buff-bot people.
As for the microphone, I never said multiple persons couldn't use the same mike. I never said you would have to fight for a microphone. Actually my thought was that a master dancer and master musician might like to work together so that people coming in could group both performers at the same time and recieve their buffs. For those who like to congregate and actually socialize, you can still work the more popular spots like Coronet cantina, those who just want to provide their guild cantina with a buff bot can do so and STILL get a share of the creds. Those who want to be buff-bots and hope for even more tips can continue to do so as well. Since we must perform in a cantina, nothing really would change except people would HAVE to pay a charge for service recieved, unlike the 'accepted' custom now of relying on people's concience to make even a meager payment for something they obviously value but DON"T WANT TO PAY FOR because of AFK 'free' macroing buff-bots.
Oh, btw, don't say a person is 'out of touch' if you don't know them. This happens to be the SECOND time I've leveled up a MDM... I love playing and chatting with people who use my service... I just want to get paid without having to beg for it. Every dancer or musician who begs for tips in a cantina proves my point one more time.
OldManDog
Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:39 pm
#6
psikobunny wrote:
A few questions:
Have you played an Entertainer to the point of Mastery?
I think what he was saying is that
You, Ground through the whole profession, with very little tips. No ability to BUFF, How did you make it by and manage to master in the first place?
It's unfortunate that You feel that you deserve more tips, What do you need them for anyways?
I'll buy you a crate of accragm.... Your guild doesn't give you their enhancement tapes?
What's the Real Issue Here? Credits? Enjoyment? Just to VENT because you feel used?
OldManDog
Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:09 pm
#7
Lnaith wrote:
1) Anyone else who is providing a 'at their keyboard' service is IGNORED. And if you think that a person with a buff-bot that advertises the service as free NEVER gets tips, you're dreaming.
2) They do a dis-service to other players who have put effort into being a MDM because players expect to use their service for free whenever they need it. For example... I watched for an 8 hour shift as multiple people used my character to recieve buffs and only 3 people tipped me.
That's THREE people out of over 40 who used my character, and want to know the grand total for tips? 26,500.
3) I play a Twi'lek and have to either get a doc buff for quickness (not many doctors like buffing a single stat) or use food to enhance my quickness. You can guess what a crate of food might cost. I didn't even break even. What with the AFK macro-bot in Coronet taking pretty much every person coming into the cantina, and the other popular cluster spots filled with 3-4 other MDM's, there's just no way to compete with the 'free' buff-bot people.
4) Actually my thought was that a master dancer and master musician might like to work together so that people coming in could group both performers at the same time and recieve their buffs.
5, I guess) For those who like to congregate and actually socialize, you can still work the more popular spots like Coronet cantina, those who just want to provide their guild cantina with a buff bot can do so and STILL get a share of the creds. Those who want to be buff-bots and hope for even more tips can continue to do so as well. Since we must perform in a cantina, nothing really would change except people would HAVE to pay a charge for service recieved, unlike the 'accepted' custom now of relying on people's concience to make even a meager payment for something they obviously value but DON"T WANT TO PAY FOR because of AFK 'free' macroing buff-bots.
I just want to get paid without having to beg for it. Every dancer or musician who begs for tips in a cantina proves my point one more time.
- It's your responsibility to make sure YOU'RE not ignored, You can /denyservice....
- You choose to watch, and worry about credits. Actors don't get scripts every day, they have to budget knowing that sometimes there will be slow periods. You sir are an entertainer, just like an actor you will have slow days, somedays where everyone (including your customers)will befeeling as poor as you and dont feel like spending credits.
- Like I said, If you need accragm, maybe you just need to chat it up with a chef and explain to him that you find it hard to break even, You'd be suprised how willingly they might help you, Even if it's just 10% off that's a start.
- Your thought of Mics /shake, we all pay you cannot place limits..anyhowpeople allready use "Team Buffing" and this talk about restricted to CANTINAs, It's not true. You can buff in any private structure, You could get 0010 artisan and drop a houseadd a 2k maintainence fee, stating that you charge for music&dance buffs & Place this house outside Cnet.
- Is just a rant. I personaly am sorry to see you complain, However where I playwe offer free mindbuffs because we're willing to all pitch in the extra few dollars a month to pay for the account. Since we're allready using it,Everyone who knows us, is friends with us and or can get into our group is free to take as many mindbuffs are they'd like. There's very very little expense and that's the real issue.
If a chef sells his brandy at 1k for 10 drinks (800+ mind, two shots 21 per stack) for 1k credits and it it lasts 45 minutes. Actually costs the chef more than just time (which is very valueable, and should be respected) = 7.5 Hours of MindBuffs for 1k credits.
Your buffs are 100% at Master, with enhancements you could get it to 125%. Most mindpools are 1000, your buff is 1000 for two hours..Focus & Will are most usualy 400, Essentialy you give a 1800 mind buff for 2 hours. (Brandy is alot cheaper now, Im saying at 250k for a crate of 25, which Im not sure about where you play but on my server it's down to about 160k a crate)
Would you be insluted if everyone paid you 500 credits for a mindbuff?
Cause Ya Know What..... 40 people * 500 = 20k credits... The way I see it is you're up 5k for that 8 hour Buff Session,
But Hey You figure it out.
Message Edited by OldManDog on 02-22-2005 04:12 PM
Message Edited by OldManDog on 02-22-2005 04:16 PM
Lnaith
Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:46 pm
#8
it's all about players paying for a valuable service.
"/denyservice" LOL, yeah right.
MDM:Hey, I charge 5k for a MDM buff session.
Player who doesn't want to pay for MDM buff: Oh no problem, I'll just buff from this guy next to you... he's a 'free' AFK buff bot.
"...some days where everyone (including your customers) will be feeling as poor as you and don't feel like spending credits"
I'd like to try that with anyone else in the game. Please Mr Armoursmith, I don't feel like spending 250,000 credits for a set of composite armor, just give me a free set since I feel poor. It's fairly commonsensethat if youdon't feel like spending credits, you do without.
"Even if it's just 10% off, that's a start..."
Where am I getting the credits for even a 10% reduction of a crate of food that costs 100,000 since I'm not supposed to worry about getting credits from my profession?
"You can buff in any private structure."
How many players do you suppose would run 400m outside Cnet to a 'private structure' when they can run to the cantina and buff there? Zilch. And how do I afford a private structure and maintenance costs when I'm not supposed to worry about getting credits from my profession?
"There's very very little expense and that's the real issue..."
If there's so little expense that you are willing to pay for a seperate account, how bout keeping it to yourself so that those people who only have ONE account can make some credits performing their profession? I suspect you have a seperate account and are willing to pay for it because you VALUE the buffs available to the point you ARE willing to spend the extra bucks. Saves you from spending credits in the game paying someone else to be an MDM. And of course, on rare occassions, someone will tip.
Enhancements cost mega-credits, quickness buffs cost credits, bio-engineered clothing cost credits, 'private structures' cost credits, but hey, YOU figure it out.
Oh, and I decided the minimum cost for cantina entry should be 20,000 instead of 500... let's see... 40 * 20,000 = hmmmm
Taenia
Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:37 am
#9
OldManDog wrote:
"It's unfortunate that You feel that you deserve more tips, What do you need them for anyways?"
"There's very very little expense and that's the real issue."
"Actually costs the chef more than just time (which is very valueable, and should be respected)..."
"The way I see it is you're up 5k for that 8 hour Buff Session,"
Apparently a player's time is only valuable if he or she chooses not to be an entertainer.
The issue is not only expense. If it were, everyone in the game would simply break even and be happy with it. The issue is enjoyment and economic viability for every game profession.
What makes an entertainer less worthy of being able to buy a house, or clothing, or an expensive rug? Nobody actually *needs* these things to play.
People want them because they make the game more enjoyable. And for most live entertainers, busting their butts and working the crowd - only to be disrespected, passed over for automatons and told that their time is worth nothing - is hardly enjoyable.
Deddarus
Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:39 am
#10
why not simply add a group entry fee instead
ie 'xxxx invites you to join his/her group for 10k'
that way u can set yer price
obviously theres a trust issue that you will do the buff once they have joined byt meh.. lifes not perfect
ie 'xxxx invites you to join his/her group for 10k'
that way u can set yer price
obviously theres a trust issue that you will do the buff once they have joined byt meh.. lifes not perfect
DarkY0da
Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:53 pm
#11
As just a note the only real currency the only real thing that sets prices in this game IS time.
viiv
Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:03 pm
#12
I play an entertainer - not by any means a master of anything. I can't buff. All I can do is show up and play.
I've never had a session where I haven't been tipped, multiple times, by people who (a) could get the same service I provide from any entertainer in the Cantina (often enough, by better-trained musicians) and (b) aren't getting buffs at all.
What I do get is a lot of people who are shocked (shocked!) to find a Real Live Person doing a gig. I've never asked for tips, and I've never gone about shouting at people to heal me or listen to me. I just show up and do what I can. And I think I do OK, tipwise.
I'm not saying your beef isn't valid - it's lame that people aren't paying you for the service you provide. But the solution isn't to make it harder for people to access entertainment (which is the practical effect of even a nominal charge to enter a cantina or a mic). It's to eliminate AFK play as much as possible. Your solution addresses the symptom, not the disease.
Maisland
Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:44 am
#13
viiv wrote:
I'm not saying your beef isn't valid - it's lame that people aren't paying you for the service you provide. But the solution isn't to make it harder for people to access entertainment (which is the practical effect of even a nominal charge to enter a cantina or a mic). It's to eliminate AFK play as much as possible. Your solution addresses the symptom, not the disease.
Here! Here!
As for myself, the day I had to pay a "cover charge" to enter a cantina is the day I would stop entering them altogether. I'd dance & play in the streets rather than pay to enter the cantina or pay to be able to buff anyone... and if someone wanted healing or a buff from me, I'd do it in a private house or a camp rather than pay to go to a cantina and use the "facilities" there... and if they made it so that is not possible, I would cease to entertain the public entirely... and that day would be the day I quit SWG for good. The worst part of thisis that itwouldn'tbe a bot or a zombie that drove me out, it would be an idea proposed by a fellow live entertainer.
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