Musician Archive
Thread: Recursive macros need to go!
Can someone tell me why they don't remove recursive macros from the game?
How difficult can that be?
I really hope that when CU goes live, those evil recursive macros will be gone.
IGN: Lito Esi
Farstar
LyteFoot wrote:
The problem isn't recursive macros, those are actually a powerful tool. The problem is that they don't use the clients ability to detect the difference in macro input and keyboard/mouse input to time out a player who hasn't turned on auto-AFK. They just need to log people off when their only interaction has been from the program and not the player after some period of time.
Totally agreed. Without recursive macros, there'd be no way to chat when playing at a cantina, since you'd have to keep hitting the macro button for the string of flourishes. They are, in and of themselves, useful. With changes like these (though I admit they may be a pain to program despite seeming simple from the user side), it would fix the problem.
I agree that it is not recursive macros that need to go, but the ability to skill annimate while AFK. However I do not use macros to flourish and I can converse just fine with people who come into the Cantina.
Doh! I cannot type today!
Fobok wrote:
Totally agreed. Without recursive macros, there'd be no way to chat when playing at a cantina, since you'd have to keep hitting the macro button for the string of flourishes. They are, in and of themselves, useful. With changes like these (though I admit they may be a pain to program despite seeming simple from the user side), it would fix the problem.
Message Edited by NeillM on 04-11-2005 04:36 PM
I use a macro to buff, since i really don't want to spam flourishes, but not for normal dancing or making music.
And even if you use macros: You don't have to constantly hit them... you can very well make macros that run for a few minutes without recursion. So now, if you tell me ONE button every 3 minutes is to much for you, then I don't know.
I want them to enforce the AFK rules like they should be enforced. Keyboard and Mouse activity keeps you online everything else does not.
IF they put this in then they can leave recursive macros in peace. My buff macro is recursive as is my CoB macro, as are a few others.
But if they somehow can't do that, and I would have to decide between sacrificing recursive macros and not getting rid of AFK, i would gladly sacrifice recursive macros.
I just wanted to point out that all the calls of the game being unplayable, if they would be removed (not saying they should, see above), are total humbug. EVERY example (with one exception) that was given to me, what would be ruined without recursive macros, can easily be made with non-recursion and will run for a few minutes at least. A macro does not have to end after line 4 with /macro [macroname], it can be 40 or 50 lines long.
The only exception is crafting macros. They would not run for minutes but only for 6 or 7 passes. Perhaps you can shorten it and get 10 or 12 in, but then you have to restart it. Again, it might be annoying but it would work.
NeillM wrote:
I agree that it is not recursive macros that need to go, but the ability to skill annimate while AFK. However I do not use macros to flourish and I can converse just fine with people who come into the Cantina.
Thus, you're obviously a much faster typer than me. 
There's no way I can type fast enough to chat, and keep my flourishes going at a constant rate manually... at least, not without killing my arm from pushing myself to type fast and not being able to take a break. (Of course, I'm also a very verbose chatter, typing whole paragraphs at time.)
Edit to add: This is only an issue with XP grinding. During performances, or just plain fun sessions, I don't macro.
Message Edited by Fobok on 04-12-2005 01:49 AM
Coreena wrote:
But if they somehow can't do that, and I would have to decide between sacrificing recursive macros and not getting rid of AFK, i would gladly sacrifice recursive macros..
Not necesarily, I type until a flo is done, hit a button then type some more... when I have done my sentance I then hit enter... it may mean I cannot get out as much as I could with a macro flourishing for me, but I can chat and hit the buttons. I do admit this method does take a little getting used to!
Fobok wrote:
NeillM wrote:
I agree that it is not recursive macros that need to go, but the ability to skill annimate while AFK. However I do not use macros to flourish and I can converse just fine with people who come into the Cantina.
Thus, you're obviously a much faster typer than me.
Edit to add: This is only an issue with XP grinding. During performances, or just plain fun sessions, I don't macro.
Message Edited by Fobok on 04-12-2005 01:49 AM
LiTo-SWE wrote:
Hello everyone,
Can someone tell me why they don't remove recursive macros from the game?
How difficult can that be?
How difficult can it be? Well, that's a very interesting question, and the answer is it's a lot more complex than you might imagine. That is, it's very complex to do it the right way. Many, many players use macros for legitimate reasons. I honestly do not think it is fair to affect these people so negatively simply to get rid of a comparitive minority of people who use macros to play for long periods when not at the keyboard. Do you? And this is the crux of the problem. In itself, it is very easy to get rid of macros, but it is not easy to get rid of the ability for a minority of people to take advantage of the system without affecting a majority of people who use macros legitimately.
Allow me to explain a little. Suppose you wanted to get rid of the abilty for someone to flourish for long hours unattended. I assume that is your main problem with macros. Well, the easiest way for someone to do that is what? To write a macro that recurses maybe, following one of the many tutorials on how to write a macro, drag it onto the toolbar and get it to click itself at the end to restart it? So you might imagine simplistically that you can just remove the /ui action toolbarSlotxx command. Okay, but then what of the people that use macros to press buttons on the toolbar for legitimate reasons? Perhaps they want to change clothes, or call a vehicle, or equip an item. Perhaps they havea legitimate reason to have to do this from a macro, I can certainly see that for clothes changes with multiple items of clothing this is perfectly reasonable desire. I would not like to lose that ability personally, and I am sure there are many people who also like the functionality of /ui action and would not like to lose it. Okay, so how about just removing the ability for /ui action to click a button that containsanother macro? This would be better perhaps, but there is only a finite size for individual macros remember. Perhaps someone wishes to have a long macrothat must be split up because it is too large and it cannot be made smaller. So then you would havelost the ability to automatically chain the two macros together. So how about just limiting the ability of a macro to call itself? It could call another macro, but not itself. This could be checked for by the client. But consider then you can get around it by having two macros that call each other in a loop. The macro doesn't recurse per se, but macro a calls macro b calls macro a ad infinitum. Soeffectively the macro is continually running but it isn't strictly speaking recursive itself. How many deep should the game store for checking purposes to prevent this?
This already is getting to be a complicated check, and we have not even started on the /macro command yet either!
Okay, this is getting too complicated to fix neatly, why don't we just try to remove /macro and /ui action completely to get rid of unattended play, and everyone who had a legitimate reason to use these commands can just lump it? Would thatfix the problem?Well, what about aliases? Do you not think it would be possible, perhaps even easier, to play unattended using aliases instead of macros? And how can you stop them calling each other seeing as they do not rely on either being on the toolbar or being prefixed with another command? To stop them being used for AFK "play" you would have to remove them.
I could go on, as there are many many ways to play the game unattended without needing to resort to third party programs. But to do away with them would hurt a lot of ATK players who relyon the functionality of the game for legitimate reasons while playing ATK.
So, sure recursive macros could be done away with very easily. But they cannot be done away with easily without impacting a lot of players who are not absuing the system in the first place. There are however, far simpler ways of preventing people abusing macros and aliases without needing to remove them at all. And considering my experience of this game over its life time it does not surprise me at all that they have not been implemented yet. I would even go as far as to say it would not surprise me if they have not even been thought of yet by SoE. 