Merchant Archive
Thread: Concerns about combat balance and merchants...
Page 1 of 2
Dimear
Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:07 am
#1
I read through some of the proposed changes for the combat balance or combat fix or whatever they're calling it this week. I really liked most of the suggestions and am looking forward to it. However, I had some serious concerns about how some of the changes will affect me as a merchant.
One of the major changes with the combat balance is that they're removing TEF's. There will be 5 levels of players, similar to what we have now: neutral (called civilians now), covert (forget the new name), and overt (called special forces). Of course, covert and overt players have joined the rebellion or empire. The big difference will be with the covert players. You will now be covert to all other players (meaning they can't attack you), but not to NPC's. Any NPC of the opposing faction will kill you on sight. And apparently the NPC's are going to get tougher.
This sounds great (in my opinion), as it will give a much greater feeling of immersion into the rebel/imperial conflict. However, as a merchant, I think I'm doomed. I don't have many fighting skills, nor do I want them. The new changes suggest I'll get killed every few minutes by NPC's. Apparently there will be very tough NPC's in cities, and roving across the countryside. I'm really not looking forward to getting killed 5 times before I can reach my harvesters. This will force me out to be a civilian instead of participating in the GCW. They also have something where you can temporarily leave your faction so you don't get attacked, but if we non-combatants have to do this 99% of the time, then it's really no better than being a civilain. I was under the impression that they wanted everyone to have a sense of immersion in the GCW, and I think that's a great goal. I'm really not sure how we as non-combatants will fit into the proposed system. I know this is a combat balance, but I still don't want to be an uber-leet fighter in order to join the rebellion or serve the empire.
What do you all think?
One of the major changes with the combat balance is that they're removing TEF's. There will be 5 levels of players, similar to what we have now: neutral (called civilians now), covert (forget the new name), and overt (called special forces). Of course, covert and overt players have joined the rebellion or empire. The big difference will be with the covert players. You will now be covert to all other players (meaning they can't attack you), but not to NPC's. Any NPC of the opposing faction will kill you on sight. And apparently the NPC's are going to get tougher.
This sounds great (in my opinion), as it will give a much greater feeling of immersion into the rebel/imperial conflict. However, as a merchant, I think I'm doomed. I don't have many fighting skills, nor do I want them. The new changes suggest I'll get killed every few minutes by NPC's. Apparently there will be very tough NPC's in cities, and roving across the countryside. I'm really not looking forward to getting killed 5 times before I can reach my harvesters. This will force me out to be a civilian instead of participating in the GCW. They also have something where you can temporarily leave your faction so you don't get attacked, but if we non-combatants have to do this 99% of the time, then it's really no better than being a civilain. I was under the impression that they wanted everyone to have a sense of immersion in the GCW, and I think that's a great goal. I'm really not sure how we as non-combatants will fit into the proposed system. I know this is a combat balance, but I still don't want to be an uber-leet fighter in order to join the rebellion or serve the empire.
What do you all think?
JuggernautRM
Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:16 pm
#2
Easy fix. Just go neutral. You want to help the rebellion or empire go help them, but if you sign up as a faction member, you have to count yourself open bait to attacks.
Message Edited by JuggernautRM on 02-05-2005 11:17 AM
LonelyGhost
Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:22 pm
#3
I hear you and its not an uncommon concern. My Main is a Neutral Crafter/Merchant. But as Tyrant has said a couple times now, this is war. Pick a side or opt out. Basically, think of it in a RP sense. As a Rebel/Imp crafter/Businessbeing, do you think the opposite faction will consider you "okay" because you are not a fighter? The goal of a war is to win. So it makes sense that if a Rebel Squad comes across an Imperial Chef, they will do their best to prevent that person from supporting the Imperials.
Like it or not, by declaring a side, you fall under the same fate as the rest on that same side. The dangers facing the greatest also face the least. What I think it boils down to is choosing your risk vs reward. If its *that* important to you to stay a Faction member, then there are steps you can take to keep yourself safe when out & about. Getting up in rank and hiring troops, or paying other players to come with you places to keep you safe, etc...
Being a faction member is about fighting. I dont much care to fight, so I'm neutral. I wont bother having a factioned crafter. Who cares? Why bother? Its not like you can craft faction armor or weapons due to your membership in that faction. A Neutral crafter can make everything a factioned one can.
I think the TEF changes are going to be great. My alt is now factioned, but not a PvP'r, and I look forward to seeking out PvE bases. This will be the first time I have taken part in the GCW.
Like it or not, by declaring a side, you fall under the same fate as the rest on that same side. The dangers facing the greatest also face the least. What I think it boils down to is choosing your risk vs reward. If its *that* important to you to stay a Faction member, then there are steps you can take to keep yourself safe when out & about. Getting up in rank and hiring troops, or paying other players to come with you places to keep you safe, etc...
Being a faction member is about fighting. I dont much care to fight, so I'm neutral. I wont bother having a factioned crafter. Who cares? Why bother? Its not like you can craft faction armor or weapons due to your membership in that faction. A Neutral crafter can make everything a factioned one can.
I think the TEF changes are going to be great. My alt is now factioned, but not a PvP'r, and I look forward to seeking out PvE bases. This will be the first time I have taken part in the GCW.
Elyssa
Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:56 pm
#4
I have no combat ability and honestly, killing things is of little interest to me.
I joined a faction so I could hang out with my friends and for the RP aspect of it.
I joined a faction so I could hang out with my friends and for the RP aspect of it.
The prospect of NPC's being permanently aggro'd to me is not something I'm looking forward to.
I had hoped that somehow rank could be factored into that so someone like myself who is nothing more than 'factioned for convenience' would be ignored but the higher ranking people would face the consequences of being well known to the enemy.
I had hoped that somehow rank could be factored into that so someone like myself who is nothing more than 'factioned for convenience' would be ignored but the higher ranking people would face the consequences of being well known to the enemy.
I'll wait to see how it all works but I imagine that I'll be spending the vast majority of my time "on leave."
However, if that proves impractical I will be forced into neutrality even though it means that I have to quit the guild that I started a year and a half ago.
Dimear
Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:24 pm
#5
Like I said, I'm really looking forward to most of the changes. But I thought they wanted everyone to be able to participate in the GCW. In the past, it seems like they've worked hard to include crafters and such in the gameplay (Death Watch Bunker for instance). I'm surprised they're planning a system for the GCW that will force all noncombatants from the GCW. From a RP sense, I'm sure the empire and rebellion had lots of noncombatants. How many crafters did it take to build the Death Star? Who maintained the equipment on Hoth? With the new system, only serious fighters will be able to join the rebellion or serve the empire. I'd like a different solution that includes everyone else.
Elyssa, as our representative, can you please find an appropriate place to voice our concerns? I know they'll want feedback from all the professions on this. My personal feedback is that I like the proposed changes, but am pretty concerned about how it will affect me as a merchant. Being forced out of the GCW isn't a good solution, in my opinion. Being permantently on leave (or on leave most of the time) isn't a good solution either - that's the same as being forced out. Thanks.
Elyssa, as our representative, can you please find an appropriate place to voice our concerns? I know they'll want feedback from all the professions on this. My personal feedback is that I like the proposed changes, but am pretty concerned about how it will affect me as a merchant. Being forced out of the GCW isn't a good solution, in my opinion. Being permantently on leave (or on leave most of the time) isn't a good solution either - that's the same as being forced out. Thanks.
Elyssa
Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:15 pm
#6
This change popped up on my second day in office.
Trust me, I've been in there since it started and I'll be there to see it all the way through testing.
The developers are aware of the non-combatant concerns but at this point there's not a whole lot to do until we can see it in action on TC.
The best thing you can do is create a character on TC and experience it for yourself so you can give feedback on it before it gets pushed to the Live servers.
Personally, the last thing I want is to be hassled by NPCs every time I go into a faction-controlled city to conduct business. It's hard enough dodging Kwi's on my daily trips back and forth to Aurilia.
I've always sort of thought of my character as that book dealer in the movie "Patriot Games." I'm discreetlyloyal to the cause but if you put me out in the training camp in the middle of the desert I'll just get sunburned.
I would hate to be forced out of even my peripheral role in the GCW just for the sake of a game mechanic.
Muzz
Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:34 pm
#7
If i'm swooping across whatever planet I am on, surveying and servicing harvesters, dressed in a hooded cloak and with no weapons equipped, how would the NPCs know I am factioned?
This seems to be a change that will virtually force all dedicated crafters into being neutral.
Elyssa
Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:48 pm
#8
Possibly because you have been under surveillance by the opposing faction.
There are any number of ways this could be justified from an RP perspective.
The trick comes when you try to marry that with game mechanics.
Being an actual member of the Rebellion would open you up to all sorts of risks, including death. However, this is a game and you have to balance fun against realism.
Fortunately, I'm not the one that has to do that because quite honestly I don't know how.
As I've said before, I would personally like to see it based somehow on rank or faction score (like other NPC's are). A lowly 'suspected' rebel is much more likely to be hassled and sent on their way rather than shot on sight, whereas a well known rebel colonel would be easily identifiable and should have to exercise extreme caution when moving around in hostile territory.
I've also changed the topic so as to avoid confusion. These changes are not (to my knowledge) part of the CURB. They're just an effort to breathe some life back into the GCW.
Muzz
Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:05 pm
#9
If we're talking from a RP perspective, i've no problem with being stopped and searched randomly, as we are at present, at least we can remount and swoop away before being shot. The problem I see is that every stormie, no matter how lowly or lacklustre, will open fire as soon as I swoop within range of him.
Fun against realism? Playing a factioned crafter will be no fun. Infact i'm not even sure it will be playable at all. I'm not sure rank should matter either, the only thing that seems fair is some sort of opposing faction visibility rating based on your actions, something not dissimilar to the Jedi visibility system. But then that'd be far too complicated to implement across the board.
DocSavag
Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:08 pm
#10
Muzz wrote:If we're talking from a RP perspective, i've no problem with being stopped and searched randomly, as we are at present, at least we can remount and swoop away before being shot. The problem I see is that every stormie, no matter how lowly or lacklustre, will open fire as soon as I swoop within range of him.Fun against realism? Playing a factioned crafter will be no fun. Infact i'm not even sure it will be playable at all. I'm not sure rank should matter either, the only thing that seems fair is some sort of opposing faction visibility rating based on your actions, something not dissimilar to the Jedi visibility system. But then that'd be far too complicated to implement across the board.
What exactly is it that you fear you will be missing if you are on leave or neutral under the new rules? (I personally supported a visibility scheme that included rank and combat abilities and equipped weapontry myself but put that aside) what does faction have to do with being a merchant? Can't you do the same things as a merchant as a Civilian or as an On Leave combatant? What is it you fear being shut out of?
If its RP can't you RP a rebel sympathetic merchant without actually being a combatant?
Muzz
Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:16 pm
#11
DocSavag wrote:
Muzz wrote:
If we're talking from a RP perspective, i've no problem with being stopped and searched randomly, as we are at present, at least we can remount and swoop away before being shot. The problem I see is that every stormie, no matter how lowly or lacklustre, will open fire as soon as I swoop within range of him.
Fun against realism? Playing a factioned crafter will be no fun. Infact i'm not even sure it will be playable at all. I'm not sure rank should matter either, the only thing that seems fair is some sort of opposing faction visibility rating based on your actions, something not dissimilar to the Jedi visibility system. But then that'd be far too complicated to implement across the board.
What exactly is it that you fear you will be missing if you are on leave or neutral under the new rules? (I personally supported a visibility scheme that included rank and combat abilities and equipped weapontry myself but put that aside) what does faction have to do with being a merchant? Can't you do the same things as a merchant as a Civilian or as an On Leave combatant? What is it you fear being shut out of?
If its RP can't you RP a rebel sympathetic merchant without actually being a combatant?
Apologies Doc, I was commenting from a POV of my template as a whole rather than just Merchant, I am a WS in a rebel guild and likealot ofcrafters have Merchant as it's the only viable way to sell crafted items without it being alot more time consuming and awkward. It's just that i'd like to be factioned and this will make it extremely difficult.
DocSavag
Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:53 pm
#12
Muzz wrote:
DocSavag wrote:
Muzz wrote:If we're talking from a RP perspective, i've no problem with being stopped and searched randomly, as we are at present, at least we can remount and swoop away before being shot. The problem I see is that every stormie, no matter how lowly or lacklustre, will open fire as soon as I swoop within range of him.Fun against realism? Playing a factioned crafter will be no fun. Infact i'm not even sure it will be playable at all. I'm not sure rank should matter either, the only thing that seems fair is some sort of opposing faction visibility rating based on your actions, something not dissimilar to the Jedi visibility system. But then that'd be far too complicated to implement across the board.
What exactly is it that you fear you will be missing if you are on leave or neutral under the new rules? (I personally supported a visibility scheme that included rank and combat abilities and equipped weapontry myself but put that aside) what does faction have to do with being a merchant? Can't you do the same things as a merchant as a Civilian or as an On Leave combatant? What is it you fear being shut out of?
If its RP can't you RP a rebel sympathetic merchant without actually being a combatant?
Apologies Doc, I was commenting from a POV of my template as a whole rather than just Merchant, I am a WS in a rebel guild and likealot ofcrafters have Merchant as it's the only viable way to sell crafted items without it being alot more time consuming and awkward. It's just that i'd like to be factioned and this will make it extremely difficult.
I'm not criticizing your complaints or even judging them incorrect. I'm seeking knowledge at this point for my own understanding of the issue. All but one of my toons are factioned. about half are crafters. They wil be dead meat in cities when this goes in. I plan on staying out of the cities or being on leave or escorted when in cities because I won't give up my faction and I'm prepared to take the risks invovled in it for the pleasure of keeping my colors. But if you find it too dificult to do so then you could just go Civilian or on leave. On leave will NOT be "blue" it will be recognizable as a factioned player without benefits of the faction while you are not on duty. That seems perfect for merchants to me..and guilds who are factioned only should accept those members as full factioned members. I know my guild will and we are very commited to being factioned in the war. We lost 6 members in one night not too long ago because we refused to look the other way over some factional mixing that was going on from one of our members.
Vastar
Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:44 pm
#13
I believe one of the things listed with those changes is that coverts can take advantage of faction perks without opening themselves to PvP. Could non-combatants not simply drag an AT-ST around with them now? (Not rebels of course but /shrug) 
Page 1 of 2