Merchant Archive
Thread: Fix for the Non-Merchant vendor issue Proposal
RumblingSky wrote:
ElPedroSG wrote:
Edit: The burger bar RL comparison edited addition is not valid. Your subject isn't limited to 250 skill points in what they can remember at one time.
Actually, it is. There are many reasons why managers who were once good suddenly lose the ability to continue to be good managers. It is synonymous with dropping the skills. It is a real world analogy and while the specifics (i.e. we do not have character sheets or statistic as I know them in real life) differ, the concept is the same.
Actually it's not (to me at least) this is SWG, the link to SW is thin at times, the link to real life non existent.
Edit#2: Damn missed this one "Either SOE needs to live up to their promise of a ZERO TOLERANCE for exploitation or you need to stop calling a natural function of the game an exploit." lol that was a good one! So everything in game that can be done is legit then? In which case there is no such thing as an exploit so no need to have a policy regarding it, lived up to or not.
I see your point, but I raise you clarification on what I was saying. If someone is intentionally using a bug then they need to ban that person for exploting that bug -- regardless of what the bug is(or they should drop the threat of zero tolerance). The threat is there so it can be implemented at will - not having it would lead to discussion of what is a serious and therefore bannable offence and what is not along with the whole interpratation issue If the game was intended to be that way, then they shouldn't ban anyone and simply explain that is the way it should work. So far, they have done neither. As I see it, Merchant is an extension or suppliment profession to the crafter professions. I could be wrong and I would admit that I was if SOE either announced that it was or if they changed it. Again, they have done neither. While it is still an option, however, I will continue to argue against it until SOE (or we.. by helping them) come up with a way to prevent AFK spamming in the starports which causes "game breaking" lag, often rendering the game unplayable in certain areas.
Again, and for the last time, keep in mind I still have management 3, because I don't believe in taking chances with my hard work. I do not know which way SOE leans on this issue as they have never clarified it. My main problem is the extra lag that will be caused throughout the entire galaxy as opposed to it being confined to the few areas it is at now. You don't have to believe this will become a worse issue, but it will. The proof is in the history of AFK spamming.
Regardless of how something was intended to work, one must predict the result of a change and attempt to aleviate the negative aspects prior to making the change. While it is impossible to predect every aspect of a change, this one is obvious and must be addressed first.
I must be lucky, cnet is just annoying for me in the 'stupid enough to read a spam then trek out for a wasted visit /addignore' way. I like your last paragraph though, I hope someone from SOE reads it and takes note...
Wire3k wrote:
ElPedroSG wrote:
Firstly if it's no big deal how about stating your crafting prodession then we can discuss that.
Master Tailor, Master Bio Engineer, Master Artisan, Master Merchant, Master Doctor, Master Musician, novice chef, de , and with a good bit of scout - what would you like to discuss?
Discuss how pleased you would be ifone person on one character had all the skills you have on all your accounts ^plus Master Carb and BH3400 for a bit of PvP and resource harvesting?
JTGAlpha wrote:
I don't enjoy the lag and I don't want more of it.
But what's worse? One city with EVERYONE in it and annoying as piss because of lag, and all the rest empty...
Or ALL the static cities with a handful of people in them with a little lag?
Personally I HATE the fact that everyone hangs out at Coronet. Sure it's not terrible for me because I live on Corellia, but I hate the fact that Mos Eisley, a buzzing hive of scum and villiany is as empty as a gay bar in Macon GA. I hate empty cities. I loathe them. Breaks my immersion and makes me bored as piss. The problem is that spammers congregate at Coronet because everyone is there. Everyone is there because that's where everyone goes to ply their trade, many of which are spammers.
If there are SO many spammers that coronet can't hold them all the people with something to actually sell will migrate elsewhere, the customers with them, and the spammers will follow like parasites, thus spreading the joy and the pain across the entire galaxy instead of focusing ALL of it in one city.
Now, that's not how it will go, but it's a possibillity. It's mob psychology. Already, at least amongst the smuggling community, who represent a LARGE portion of desired trade, if a market is full we move on elsewhere. What if the same were true for ALL professions. Too many afk dancers. Too many docs. Too many spammers. Too many smugglers. People will move. They will migrate. Too many vendors in one spot is NOT a good place to make money. Too much competition. So the hopeful consequence is that they'll spread out.
All of this is besides the point. The point is, I really don't believe that letting merchants perform their designed function, and keeping their role unique, fun, and vital, will equal a spamming hell the likes of which never before seen, as you purport.
That's pretty cool since I'm only two hours north of Macon and I know what you mean.
However.. you obviously do not play on Bloodfin (aside from the Server listed under your name). As it is, we not only have the useless number of spammers in Coronet, but we also have them branching out to Theed, Dantooine Mining Outpost and almost every major city on Tatooine. The worst is when they sit in Coronet and spam-vertise for a totally different planet. The people who are currently willing to planet advertise as opposed to spam (like myself) will start spamming as soon as they can no longer planet advertise. It might not seem like a lot, but you can easily wager that half of the vendors on the planetary map, at least, have "illegal" listings. We can even say half of those have multiple vendors. I think it would be a safe assumption (worst case - which is what we should judge by) that that many people will suddenly find themselves in a major city with a starport spamming with the rest of them. It might not be so bad if it was only one planet, however this will be happening on every planet. I may just be a Doomsayer, but I can see this getting extremely out of hand, and unless they allow a certain number of player cities per planet to have a starport, I see it as an inescapable annoyance. I know you'd like to think that they would turn to merchants, but think realistically for a moment. You know how totally greedy most of the players are in this game. Do you honestly think that enough people would be willing to pay you to advertise for them rather than sit and spam? Or better yet, do you honestly think they will sell their merchandise to you at a lower price for the convenience? I would wager that very few would.
ElPedroSG wrote:
<everything you said in your last response to me>
Tarnak_Archvold wrote:
To use the argument that the added price wares will be sold at when they go throe a merchant is against the buyer's interests is shear stupidity.
Message Edited by RumblingSky on 04-06-2004 07:52 AM
For your information I am a Master Artisan, Master Merchant, and Master Weaponsmith. And I don’t plan to be the one selling other products. I will keep supplying the locals PC town where I live with weapons throe my vendors, giving crates of weapons to fellow merchant in my guild for consignment sales.
"If you want to be taken seriously, try using spell check and having someone proof read the posts for you. I didn't understand half of this, because I'd prefer to read a post.. not interpret one. Everyone makes one or two mistakes, but c'mon. I'm honestly trying to help you here."
I do use a spell checker, but English is not my 2nd languish, and I have a light degree of dyslexia. However, you do not care about that. You just choose to point this out so you did not have to respond to the valid argument I raised. (A tactic I have seen many times before).
" Oh, and it also helps to read all of the responses before adding one yourself. Had you done that, you would see that someone else already made your point several responses ago and it has already been debated. "
Well obviously you did not aspect the point before, so posting it again in new wording is necessary for you to understand it.
You cannot oppose the changes debated here on the bases of the argument "it is better for the customer to keep things as they are now".
Tarnak_Archvold wrote:
"Umm.. well said coming from a Merchant looking to make money off of very little work at all. One who likes the Vasarian Brandy a little too much, perhaps. You know, the stuff that temporarily makes you think you're more intelligent than you really are, but everyone just hears you slurring your words. "
For your information I am a Master Artisan, Master Merchant, and Master Weaponsmith. And I don’t plan to be the one selling other products. I will keep supplying the locals PC town where I live with weapons throe my vendors, giving crates of weapons to fellow merchant in my guild for consignment sales.
"If you want to be taken seriously, try using spell check and having someone proof read the posts for you. I didn't understand half of this, because I'd prefer to read a post.. not interpret one. Everyone makes one or two mistakes, but c'mon. I'm honestly trying to help you here."
I do use a spell checker, but English is not my 2nd languish, and I have a light degree of dyslexia. However, you do not care about that. You just choose to point this out so you did not have to respond to the valid argument I raised. (A tactic I have seen many times before).
" Oh, and it also helps to read all of the responses before adding one yourself. Had you done that, you would see that someone else already made your point several responses ago and it has already been debated. "
Well obviously you did not aspect the point before, so posting it again in new wording is necessary for you to understand it.
You cannot oppose the changes debated here on the bases of the argument "it is better for the customer to keep things as they are now".
Okay.. if you say so. Scroll back to the other responses on the topic. It cannot be explained any clearer. if you don't get it, you never will. I also apologize for being uncompationate regarding your malady. The one I didn't know you had. When people take a point, reword it and post it as they're own, they are usually either very young or just hopping on a bandwagon.
Message Edited by RumblingSky on 04-06-2004 08:42 AM
I never post anything I do not mean. And I often post what I mean with out taking in to account what others mean. I stayed out of this topic for a long while, thinking it would die out... well it did not, so I decide that I would add my perhaps not so unlike view point to it.
What trouble about you former response was that it was focusing more on my grammar then my argumentation. Now you are properly as tired of beating this dead horse as I am (I do not even wand to try to count how many times the topic have been up).
"Look.. I can understand that it is vitally important to some of you that I have no opinion of my own and that I conform to your way of thinking. In fact, I admit I have begun to turn around a little on this issue."
If you have listen to the arguments and thought about it then that is all I could hope for. This issue is taken up so often here, often by people just interested shouting thair opinion in the belief that if they state it often enough the DEVS will make the current way it works permanent. And knowing the devs, I guess most of us cannot just let them do that unopposed.
" However, there is no way I would ever give in to this insane notion until one thing happens. You want a change that is going to cause a great deal of lag from even more AFK spamming. If it is so important for you all to make me change my mind, solve that problem. Then we'll talk. "
I would like to get rid of the AFK spammers as well. However, I think the way to do that is making being a master merchant The best way to sell stuff (note not the only way). By the nature of humanity this types will always choose the path that requires the least amount of effort. If that was selling on commissioned sales throe a established merchant then that is what they would do.
RumblingSky wrote:
Balkstar wrote:
2: Sell it in a community location that is well known but again with meager means, say a Farmer's Market. The community spreads the cost of the market between them. (i.e. one buisness tree vendor in a well known mall, with only word of mouth for advertisement)
Funny.. this is exactly what I do in game, except I use the management tree in merchant in order display my wares for sale in a manner which is more convenient to the customer.
So what do we have to argue about on this point. It sounds as if you are legitimately putting points into the the merchant to be a legitimate distributor by making seperate vending booths to help segregate your wares to the customers. What I am referring to is those crafters that do not want to put points into being merchants, where they can only put down one vendor to sell from in a "Farmer's Market."
3: Sell your wares wholesale to a distriutor that has the means to advertise and distribute your wares worldwide with the most attention to your product availible. (I think you know what this is) Yes, crafters have the right to sell your products, but the way that you sell your products is what is in dispute. What most crafters have been doing is taking the advantages of the distributor and calling it your god given right, when you did not legitimately spend the capital to make the distributorship or storefronts. In the real world, it amounts to robbery.
Yes, well you know what else amounts to robbery in the real world? Forcing someone to pay you money in order to do business. What would we have to do if things worked the way you want? Pay you money so we can do business. Err.. umm.. sorry.. that's racketeering.. not robbery.. MY bad.
Now I'm really confused by your arguments. Being a distributor of goods by having to PAY wholesale for products created by crafters amounts to racketeering? Do you even understand the free market economy? I guess the US government better startarrestingWalMart and Costco execs for selling products that they "forced" the manufactures to buy products from. Let's go back to the Stone Ages, shall we?
My guess is that the manufactures are happy that they have a distributorship that frees them from having to use capital to sell thier own products. And it saves a lot of capital. An example of this would be the Wizards of the Coast stores. WotC decided that having stores to distribute their own products could help eliminate the "evil" middle-man distributors, as you would call it. Guess what happened to the stores? The WotC execs realized how much of a burden it was to actually run the stores. Too much capital investments for not enough returns. They then closed down the stores and instead focused on the most efficient way of doing buisness that they knew: using distibutors to do buisness.
The reason that SOE is not banning people, is that by the time they realized what they did, it was too pervasive, thus they didn't want to piss off the 25% of the people that do it. Instead, they told the 1% of the players that are merchants to kiss off. It was easy. It was a buisness decision for them. All we Merchantsgot was " yes its a a bug, but you will have to live with it for the time being, wheile we decide how to fix our screwup diplimatically."
Oh.. I see. So if there was a credit dupe and 60% of the people playing were exploiting it, they wouldn't ban anyone or take the dupe away? Yeah, that makes sense.
If it was me, I'd be banning them left and right too. But guess what, I don't work for SOE. I instead have to bare the brunt of their "We appologize" speeches. There was just too much of the economy of the game tied up in these illegal vendors in the game by the time SOE admitted it was a bug that was exploited unfairly. In order to prevent alienating a significant portion of their player base, they screwed an insignificant portion of the players base. Is it wrong? Yes. Is it about money? Yes.
Doc is also an advicate for Merchants as well as he can speak with members of SOE directly. He definetly is speaking for me. This is a large issue that the majority of us feel it is of top concern. And as for this "totallyscrewed" feeling, wasn't there an inner voice in any of the a-holes that stole our vendors that said, " you know, am I screwing over Merchants by doing this?" I have no sympathy for them.
How would I be screwing over people who make a supplimental profession their main profession? Understand the profession and you wont feel screwed over.
This is where you are totallly off base. Most people believe it is exclusively a seconday profession, but it really shouldn't be. It is my secondary profession, but not for the reasons you think.
I am a Master Smuggler by profession. I became a Merchant for the money savings that you got for structures. My vending stinks. It is by far not my bread-and-butter. I get more money doing missions and slicing; two things that cannot be affected by the Merchant profession. I became a Master Merchant to help my guild. There are a few carfters in my guild that do not want to take the time to sell products on the market. It's a total waste of time for them. Instead they look to me to sell thier products. All they have to do is move it to my vendors, and I do all the rest. Its that simple for them. They get money up front; I get stock to sell for the good of the guild which gets our guild noticed.
All I hear from the other side is justification for screwing over a "secondary profession".
I'm not exactly sure how I'm screwing over a secondary profession by treating it as a secondary profession.. but ookay
The reason I put it into parenthesis is to show that most people in the game think this profession is. They really should stop thinking that. It can easily be a primary profession once the bugs have been fixed, and a person can have enough capital to create a market. That is the major work for the profession: creating a market. It is a lot more work then what most people are willing to give credit for in the game.