Merchant Archive

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None2Soon wrote:

MERCHANT: (n)

1. One whose occupation is the wholesale purchase and retail sale of goods for profit

2. One who runs a retail business; a shopkeeper.

Although most of us use our Merchant skills in the second manner I believe the intent of having a Merchant class was primarily to encourage the first. Merchants would scour the galaxy looking for underpriced goods where the seller either didn't realize the value or didn't want to become a merchant himself. A Merchant, in what would seem an older sense of the word, wouldn't take goods to sell on consignment unless both the seller and merchant shared a lot of trust or an enforcable contract (which we don't have in games). The lack of that trust seems to be the reason many people cite for not wanting to deal with someone who does have the merchant skills. Had it never occurred to those of you to actually BUY the goods and then sell them at a markup? In some circles this is called buying on speculation (speculation that the price will rise rather than fall or be more valueable in a location other than where the seller is). Perhaps you heard them called Merchant Caravans. The merchants in the caravans didn't usually make the goods, they bought them for one price and sold them for a higher one somewhere else.

While this isn't why I've kept my Merchant skills for 8 months as I belong to the second definition, I don't see many people doing the first. I'm not sure why. It would seem to be a good business opportunity, buying in quantity at a discount from your favorite crafters then selling at a premium in a more advantageous location for travelers. I can see knowledgable merchants buying guns made with ultra-HQ resources when they're available then selling them a month later when supply is more limited etc.

Oh well, only two cents anyway...

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I qualify as the first definition. I made my first 1m credits doing just that. I scoured the galaxy and bought low and 'imported' to my world and sold at a profit. Sometimes on the bazaar and later with merchant skill thru my own vendors. It takes time and works well. Because I had a bit of cash I used the 2nd category by having people offer to my vendor at 'wholesale' and I would purchase and then 'retail' out of the vendor. There was not a 'trust' problem because I looked at the paperwork to track it and said I would buy outright and resell for the crafter so we didn't have to keep track of the sales. Now if the Devs add that so the game tracks it I would not complain.

-Indene-

P.S. got myself banned from some shops because the shop owner would ask what I was doing and then when I told them why I bought 10 of x they would get annoyed and ban me from their shop. Even when I offered to make an 'official' commitment to buy from them and resell. Said they didn't want Merchants gouging their customers. Since I know these folk were NOT merchants I can say that I will smile a little if they loose their ability to have vendors. Oh and I still bought stuff from their vendors. I sent in mules

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ZakkAckerton wrote:
I guess I will jump into this mess for one comment.... everyone is using the schematic analogy when in truth it isn't quite accurate. It should be more like this:

I level up in Architect till I can make Heavy Mineral Mining Installations. I make 6 of them and then drop all or Architect. So (using the current merchant defense) since I can no longer MAKE the harvestors, I should no longer be able to USE them? (The "letter of the law" for architect say build the item....but does the "spirit of the law" say use?)

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I like that. It's like the house analogy. Make Vs Use. Btw to use the harvester you really need great luck or survey skill or hire a surveyor

-Indene-

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DocSavag wrote:

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donnah42 wrote:

That's a bad analogy as well for one simple reason. The vendor is not our product, it's our tool. So a better example would be that an architect that gives up all of his skills that let him create structures or furniture could no longer use the Structure/Furniture crafting tool to make anything. Or if a character gives up all of Artisan they can no longer use the survey tools.

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There are many examples:

1. Scouts who give up novice scout can no longer use the camps they made before giving up scout.

2. Musicians who give up novice musician can no longer use the Slitherhorn they crafted.

3. Creature handler who gives up skills can no longer call a pet they trained. (They keep the pet but they can't control it. I would settle for that functionality for vendors too )

4. Medics who give up Novice medic can no longer use the stim pack they created

The list goes on. There are plenty of examples where professions lose the ability to use tools they could use before they gave up the skills. Vendors are as pivotal to merchants as the stim pack is to a medic.

This is a tired arguement though and I for one will be happy when they finally make the change and then people can just flame about the change for a while and get over it instead of us debating it time after time after time.

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However the problem remains the skill description is PLACE not PLACE and USE. Should it be changed? If you want. Should people be accused of exploiting? *NO*

-Indene-

P.S. I use all the other perks of Master merchant so dont have as much a problem justifying the skillpoints.

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Indene wrote:

I like to point out that if I built up my skills to architect and use a draft schematic to build a house that when I give up the skills I do not loose the house. However since I did not use a draft schematic to create the vendor it is somehow different from the house? Now an interesting side note I have never tried. Can I create a vendor and hand it to another player and they place it? I should reread the skill box and try that. If it works would I be accused of *exploiting* Boy I hope cooler heads get a proper definition of *exploit* cause I thought I understood it but maybe not.

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To answer your question, no, you can't give a vendor you created to another player to drop. If I remember correctly this may have been possible long ago, and it was changed because it was, in fact, an exploit. If I'm wrong, I'm sure one of the old-time merchants will correct me.

The "oh, if I drop architect I don't lose my house" argument is just silly. Anyone can place a house, not just architects. An architect has no greater ability to drop a house (or any other structure) then I do as a tailor, or my friend the Bounty Hunter does. So of course they shouldn't lose the ability to have a house. Because neither placing nor having a house is an actual ability. So that makes this example completely pointless to the merchant profession.

It would be nice if people would try arguing that they should keep vendors using actual solid analogies, because so far I've seen no good arguments for it that would make me change my mind on the issue. If someone can come up with one reasonable argument that makes sense, isn't based on bad analogies, doesn't just try and justify a selfish wish to conserve skill points, and isn't based on the language used in the skill description then many of us may wind up rethinking our positions. The "but the description says PLACE you morons!" argument is an empty one, because be honest, we already know that a lot of the text skill descriptions for skills in many professions are poorly worded, innacurate, contain rampant misspellings, or other problems that make it obvious they weren't carefully edited.

I think people don't realize that making the same really bad arguments over and over for keeping vendors after dropping skills is kind of hurting their cause. I was annoyed when I learned that it was possible, but didn't decide it was absolutely wrong until spending time in the forum, looking at both sides, and seeing the weakness of every single argument for leaving it the way it is. It made me decide that there must be no real, valid, arguments for keeping vendors after dropping the skill. Because if good arguments did exist someone would be using them instead of making weak attempts at linguistics or just tossing insults at those who disagree with their wishes. And nothing I've seen since has made me question that conclusion.

I always thought calling this bug an exploit was a little overblown and dramatic. But a mod closed a thread about it in Game Guides (which I quoted earlier in the thread) saying it was a post about an exploit, so at least some at Sony consider it one. So now when people yell "exploit" they're not just making up their own minds, they're referencing what the community was told by one of SOE's moderators.

all they need to do is allow people to keep vendors and merchant tents, without the skill, but at least make a extreme cost for it, because it does take away skill points, i want to do merchant but keep my vendors but also do a lot of armorsmith, weapons smith, tailor and keep combat so i can still go hunting, but have a nice mall. but i would be willing to pay a lot of money/per hour to keep them up.

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IrvanAdast wrote:
all they need to do is allow people to keep vendors and merchant tents, without the skill, but at least make a extreme cost for it, because it does take away skill points, i want to do merchant but keep my vendors but also do a lot of armorsmith, weapons smith, tailor and keep combat so i can still go hunting, but have a nice mall. but i would be willing to pay a lot of money/per hour to keep them up.

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actaully it wasnt even an major issue until about 4 months ago....no one really cared and then a few people got there panties in a wad and started posting about it every other day...

it only entered the TOP 5 issues once Doc took over...

before he was here no one really was that worked up over it.

bottom line..if you pay maitence you should keep the vendor...if they make it SKILL dependent then they should remove maintence

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Kentonio wrote:

This is my first visit to this forum, seeing as im about to hit Master Merchant I thought id come check out what went on here, quite frankly im disgusted to see so many people screaming abuse at each other over this issue.

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Kentonio wrote:

This is my first visit to this forum, seeing as im about to hit Master Merchant I thought id come check out what went on here, quite frankly im disgusted to see so many people screaming abuse at each other over this issue. A vast part of Galaxies is crafting and trade, without this so called 'exploit' there is currently no way for most people to realistically sell their products while keeping a well rounded character. If you want this changed then why not send in sensible alternatives as some people here have suggested above. Giving out abuse to people who simply dont like being called cheats is distasteful.

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Naufragus wrote:

actaully it wasnt even an major issue until about 4 months ago....no one really cared and then a few people got there panties in a wad and started posting about it every other day...

it only entered the TOP 5 issues once Doc took over...

before he was here no one really was that worked up over it.

bottom line..if you pay maitence you should keep the vendor...if they make it SKILL dependent then they should remove maintence

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Marqie had already mentioned this issue to the devs before she left I did include it in the top 5. (Wasn't even #1 it was #5) it was and is a very hot topic no matter which side you are on. The devs seem to agree that the intent was not for you to have vendors without the skill points to manage them.

As for people posting about it every day. This debate flares up most often when someone comes to the merchant forum and asks us to confirm that they can give up their skills without risking losing anything. The fact that they ask at all indicates that they expect it to cause problems to give up their skills.

I'll pass along your suggestion that they eliminate maintenance to the devs.

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Indene wrote:

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Balkstar wrote:

THIS IS NOT A SAVING GRACE FOR THE MERCHANT TREE!!!

I cant believe these idiots are still existing!

YOU ARE USING AN EXPLOIT IN THE GAME TO GAIN THE BENIFITS OF MY PROFESSION WHILE NOT PAYING FOR IT!!! IF YOU HAD ANY HONOR IN YOU YOU WOULD REMOVE YOUR EXTRA VENDORS THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SKILLS FOR!!!

If I had the capability to make Composite armor, Guild halls, and T21 rifles simply by keeping the scematics of a profession I untrained myself in, while you were still a master of that profession, what would you think?

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You should read more and scream less. The folk you are calling idiots at least have the ability to read and comprehend the game. For instance have you read what the skill is that involves vendors? It is right there in the merchant tree. The skill is *PLACING* the vendor. Not using it. So how do you justify accusing them of exploiting? It isn't even a bug. It is a *Documented* feature of Merchant. We have the skill to HIRE (place) the vendor. Read more. Scream less. Please.

-Indene-

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Then obviously you have selective sight, because the Devs themselves says this is an exploit that they intend to fix soon.

Or did you forget to read that post? Or simply ignore it?

Go back to your law offices, because SWG doesnt need you.

Oh and one more thing...

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!