Merchant Archive

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Rikilii wrote:

What about an architect who masters artisan, makes schematics for the few master artisan components he needs,and then drops master artisan but continues factory producing those components. Should he be banned too?

What about the doctor who obtains rifle 4 and hunting 1 to harvest avian meat for a few days, then drops those skills but still uses the avian meat for buffs. Should he be banned? What if he masters doctor so he can make some killer med schematics, but then drops the crafting line. Banned?

People who obtain merchant skills to create a vendor and then drop the skill, just like those other examples, gainone benefit from doing so that lasts beyond the time that they have the skill. They do not retain the benefits of people who keep the skill, such as the ability to create vendors whenever, wherever, and of the typethey chose. If you are really serious about playing the Merchant class, those abilities, and not the mere ability to have astatic spotto sell stuff while you're not online, would be what you'd thrive on.

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A schematic is basically a "time delayed" crafted item. There is no problem with making a schematic, and then building the items from the schematic at a later time. Just as there isn't a problem with one crafter selling a schematic to another player (who does not have to be a crafter in the same profession).

However, once the Master Artisan sells back his skill points, he no longer has access to the draft schematics (the ones you feed into your crafting tool to make items and manufacturing schematics from). Draft schematics are the TOOLS of the crafting trade.

Just like Vendors are the TOOLS of the merchant profession. Once you sell back the skill points, you should not have access to using the TOOLS of the profession.

Message Edited by rexan on 03-03-2004 11:36 AM

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rexan wrote:

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Rikilii wrote:

What about an architect who masters artisan, makes schematics for the few master artisan components he needs,and then drops master artisan but continues factory producing those components. Should he be banned too?

What about the doctor who obtains rifle 4 and hunting 1 to harvest avian meat for a few days, then drops those skills but still uses the avian meat for buffs. Should he be banned? What if he masters doctor so he can make some killer med schematics, but then drops the crafting line. Banned?

People who obtain merchant skills to create a vendor and then drop the skill, just like those other examples, gainone benefit from doing so that lasts beyond the time that they have the skill. They do not retain the benefits of people who keep the skill, such as the ability to create vendors whenever, wherever, and of the typethey chose. If you are really serious about playing the Merchant class, those abilities, and not the mere ability to have astatic spotto sell stuff while you're not online, would be what you'd thrive on.

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A schematic is basically a "time delayed" crafted item. There is no problem with making a schematic, and then building the items from the schematic at a later time. Just as there isn't a problem with one crafter selling a schematic to another player (who does not have to be a crafter in the same profession).

However, once the Master Artisan sells back his skill points, he no longer has access to the draft schematics (the ones you feed into your crafting tool to make items and manufacturing schematics from). Draft schematics are the TOOLS of the crafting trade.

Just like Vendors are the TOOLS of the merchant profession. Once you sell back the skill points, you should not have access to using the TOOLS of the profession.

Message Edited by rexan on 03-03-2004 11:36 AM

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I disagree. The TOOL of the merchant profession is the ability to train, change, move, customize....etc. Vendors. That static vendor placed by the former merchant is no different than the leftover schematic. Both give you the ability to continue doing something you "should" not be able to do. Both have severe limitations.

Here's a question: Why does anyone retain their merchant skills? What is the attraction of playing the merchant class. To those who are actually interested in PLAYING the merchant class, rather than just having access to its tools, I would find it hard to believe that the simple ability to HAVE static vendors is the reason.

Will I Lose My Vendors?

God I hope so.

Right now...no. Not until we get that fixed.

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Rikilii wrote:

What about an architect who masters artisan, makes schematics for the few master artisan components he needs,and then drops master artisan but continues factory producing those components. Should he be banned too?

What about the doctor who obtains rifle 4 and hunting 1 to harvest avian meat for a few days, then drops those skills but still uses the avian meat for buffs. Should he be banned? What if he masters doctor so he can make some killer med schematics, but then drops the crafting line. Banned?

People who obtain merchant skills to create a vendor and then drop the skill, just like those other examples, gainone benefit from doing so that lasts beyond the time that they have the skill. They do not retain the benefits of people who keep the skill, such as the ability to create vendors whenever, wherever, and of the typethey chose. If you are really serious about playing the Merchant class, those abilities, and not the mere ability to have astatic spotto sell stuff while you're not online, would be what you'd thrive on.

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Yeah, well I hope they nerf it and you lose all your stuff. Serves you right for demeaning our profession and trying to justify it by "honoring" us in a stupid post.

Message Edited by JediKnightMark on 03-05-2004 02:04 AM

I guess I will jump into this mess for one comment.... everyone is using the schematic analogy when in truth it isn't quite accurate. It should be more like this:

I level up in Architect till I can make Heavy Mineral Mining Installations. I make 6 of them and then drop all or Architect. So (using the current merchant defense) since I can no longer MAKE the harvestors, I should no longer be able to USE them? (The "letter of the law" for architect say build the item....but does the "spirit of the law" say use?)

This is what I see is the rational for Vendors.

Personally, I see so many headaches with the way everything is set up for Merchant (and in a way, do admire those of you who are still masters of this profession......though I do question your sanity). Everyone needs vendors, simple as that. If it isn't to sell the merchandise you make, then it is to sell the loot you accumulate or the items you harvest......Or it is to buy the materials you need through someone else offering items.

And no, you can't compare SWG merchant to real life merchants. If that were the case, you would have to have a single person (with complete vendor control) manning your shop 24/7 to take all incoming business to manage vendors for crafters/harvestors/others since they "shouldn't" be able to manage their own vendors. And yes, 24/7 because everyone PLAYS this game at all hours of the day....needing access to their selling point at the most inconvenient times.

Simply put: The devs messed up here. The skill boxes say "Gives the ability to PLACE a NPC vendor" not to run it. Just as the Architect has the ability to BUILD a Harvestor...not be exclusive to run it. In reality it appears that what was dropped was an ability to transfer that Vendor the Merchant built to a non-merchant person to use....

Well, that is my two cents...I could continue, but....well....

Rock-o

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ZakkAckerton wrote:
I guess I will jump into this mess for one comment.... everyone is using the schematic analogy when in truth it isn't quite accurate. It should be more like this:

I level up in Architect till I can make Heavy Mineral Mining Installations. I make 6 of them and then drop all or Architect. So (using the current merchant defense) since I can no longer MAKE the harvestors, I should no longer be able to USE them? (The "letter of the law" for architect say build the item....but does the "spirit of the law" say use?)

This is what I see is the rational for Vendors.

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That's a bad analogy as well for one simple reason. The vendor is not our product, it's our tool. So a better example would be that an architect that gives up all of his skills that let him create structures or furniture could no longer use the Structure/Furniture crafting tool to make anything. Or if a character gives up all of Artisan they can no longer use the survey tools.

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donnah42 wrote:

That's a bad analogy as well for one simple reason. The vendor is not our product, it's our tool. So a better example would be that an architect that gives up all of his skills that let him create structures or furniture could no longer use the Structure/Furniture crafting tool to make anything. Or if a character gives up all of Artisan they can no longer use the survey tools.

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There are many examples:

1. Scouts who give up novice scout can no longer use the camps they made before giving up scout.

2. Musicians who give up novice musician can no longer use the Slitherhorn they crafted.

3. Creature handler who gives up skills can no longer call a pet they trained. (They keep the pet but they can't control it. I would settle for that functionality for vendors too )

4. Medics who give up Novice medic can no longer use the stim pack they created

The list goes on. There are plenty of examples where professions lose the ability to use tools they could use before they gave up the skills. Vendors are as pivotal to merchants as the stim pack is to a medic.

This is a tired arguement though and I for one will be happy when they finally make the change and then people can just flame about the change for a while and get over it instead of us debating it time after timeafter time.

Agreed.

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ccmetal555 wrote:

Just read the FAQ and answered my own question. To anyone else who had the same question as I did and wants to know the answer, here it is copied from the FAQ.

Known Bugs

1. Surrender Skill:Players can place vendors or merchant tents, surrender Merchant skills, and still retaining the use of the vendors and merchant tents. This undermines those that are merchants, and makes our class a throw away. NO OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME ALLOWS YOU TO RETAIN A SKILL AFTER YOU BACK OUT OF IT!!!

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Yet again I must point out that this is NOT TRUE. Read the game info. Read the SKILL INFO. The skill we get is *PLACING* a vendor. When we give up merchant we *LOOSE THE ABILITY TO PLACE A VENDOR*


If you have a complaint that a person can use a vendor without haveing *ANY* skills in *ANY* profession then take that up with the developers but please express the problem correctly. But remember you are asking the DEV's to *nerf* every player in the game.


-Indene-

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Balkstar wrote:

THIS IS NOT A SAVING GRACE FOR THE MERCHANT TREE!!!

I cant believe these idiots are still existing!

YOU ARE USING AN EXPLOIT IN THE GAME TO GAIN THE BENIFITS OF MY PROFESSION WHILE NOT PAYING FOR IT!!! IF YOU HAD ANY HONOR IN YOU YOU WOULD REMOVE YOUR EXTRA VENDORS THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SKILLS FOR!!!

If I had the capability to make Composite armor, Guild halls, and T21 rifles simply by keeping the scematics of a profession I untrained myself in, while you were still a master of that profession, what would you think?

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You should read more and scream less. The folk you are calling idiots at least have the ability to read and comprehend the game. For instance have you read what the skill is that involves vendors? It is right there in the merchant tree. The skill is *PLACING* the vendor. Not using it. So how do you justify accusing them of exploiting? It isn't even a bug. It is a *Documented* feature of Merchant. We have the skill to HIRE (place) the vendor. Read more. Scream less. Please.

-Indene-

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Balkstar wrote:

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Korrack wrote:

There are 200 million threads in this forum about this and everyone always get all worked up and argues over and over and over about this. Some day the developers may decide to remove vendors from people without merchant skills, some day they may not. Some day they may allow me to eyeshot withotu being a Biunty Hunter.

Save yourself the grief and blood pressure rise and go read the horse beating threads already in this forum on this same subject. After you have read those, anything you might have said will already have been read, so you can then chill out and have a beer and relax instead of arguing in thread number 200 million and 1 on this subject.

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Appearently it has not soaked in. I want exploiters of my profession to know how passionate I am against their stealing our skills. And I will keep doing it as long as I see posts like this until they all understand.

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And some of us are just as passionate about facts. Perhaps the confusion is that you appear to be accusing other players of the crime of 'exploiting' which normally refers to the use of a software bug to their personal benefit. I think you are really asking the Developers to NERF everyone else because you feel that despite what the developers may have intended that you (we) alone should have the ability to use vendors. That being the case you would make much more progress asking the DEVs to nerf other players (they do it all the time just look at my other Mastery) and stop asking by implication for SOE to ban players. (SOE policy to ban exploiters)

So focus your passion on getting the DEVs to make changes to our profession (and as a side effect all others) rather than accusing your fellow players of cheating.
Who knows maybe the DEVs will listen.

-Indene-

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Bluude wrote:

Well, this was the only skill tree you could drop and retain the benefits of.

Now the politician tree is the same way. Once they set up the city the way they want they can drop the skill and retain the properties.

and that is not a bug and is intended to work that way.

So maybe this isn't a bug or an exploit either. Has an actual Dev (not a csr or PR guy like TH) made a comment on this one way or the other?

I think having disposable skils like this are a real plus and help me get along with limited skill points in this game. Why are you fighting it? Just do the same thing the rest of us do.

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I like to point out that if I built up my skills to architect and use a draft schematic to build a house that when I give up the skills I do not loose the house. However since I did not use a draft schematic to create the vendor it is somehow different from the house? Now an interesting side note I have never tried. Can I create a vendor and hand it to another player and they place it? I should reread the skill box and try that. If it works would I be accused of *exploiting* Boy I hope cooler heads get a proper definition of *exploit* cause I thought I understood it but maybe not.

-Indene-

P.S. Bluude I am agreeing with your position and pointing out that there are other professions that allow you to drop skill and retain the benifit of the skill.
What after all is the real benifit of architect?

All these analogies make my head hurt and none of them seem to clarify anything at all

DocSavaq, it seems that this is not working as it's meant to work and please can you takeit back to the Devs again and say this urgently needs to be addressed?

Personally I suspect it's a programmer's fudge and that the idea behind it is that Customer Service will have a quieter life if they don't get the "I dropped the skill and lost my vendor with 2 million creds worth of stuff on" type complaints

That's not good enough reason to break a profession

From the top 5 with the Devs response:

5. Currently it is possible to give up practically all of your merchant
skills without having to give up the vendors that you received as a benefit
of those skills.

We would like to see some suggested changes that would address this
situation. We agree in principle that Merchant Skills should not be
surrendered without the loss of the benefits of those skills.

I rather like the idea that you can't surrender the skill until you take the vendor down which rather neatly solves the "Wahh, I lost all my stuff" problem