Merchant Archive
Thread: Pleading on behalf non-Merchants
p4Samwise wrote:
DingoBoi wrote:
How can you be sure that they don't have their Merchant skills? It doesn't take many skill points at all to maintain a couple of vendors with planetary advertising. When I ask them for basic training in merchant and they say they've dropped all their skills, I tend to assume they have. They may have lied or retrained but that is unlikely. I'm the oldest and largest on my server and almost assuredly the largest in any galaxy. I keep tabs on my competition.
And your situation wouldn't be improved any. If that's the case, the exploit itself isn't what's harming you. If they pick up merchant then no, my situation is not appreciably better... but at least I am not having customers stolen from me due to shoddy programming/exploiting.
Actually, I don't sell the same thing you do. I'm not even on your server. You arrived to the discussion late, but I've discussed lots of uses of "exploited" Merchant skills that don't take any business from skill-point-invested Merchants. For example, vendors used by tailors as clotheshorses due to the lack of a simple mannequin item. Or crafters wanting a particular type of vendor just for RP reasons (like a DE wanting a protocol droid vendor, which makes perfect in-game sense given that the DE can MAKE protocol droids). The list goes on. Here I think we had a disconnect. I was using the example of somebody who does sell the same thing as me, but doesn't invest the skill points any longer. They indeed are 'stealing' from me because they wouldn't be able to and shouldn't be able to. True not all vendor poachers sell the same, but whether it is 1 credit or 100Million credits.. it shouldn't be happening. I'm glad it's being fixed.
As I said, that's an assumption. If the "thieves" are doing such good business, I don't see any reason why they won't just go ahead and take up the Merchant skills after the revamp, if necessary, and your business will be suffering just as much. You can take solace at that point that it's "fair", I suppose,but really, your game experience will be no better or worse. They are free to take it up.. but most of these poachers are heavy combat people who are capitalizing on this exploit. I truly doubt they will gimp their characters by dropping some combat skills.
On my signature in my power sales threads i have "Corporate Warfare is PVP in it's own regard" And it really does apply. It's no different than us both being uber combatants.. except that the other person has 64 more skill points to invest in extra combat skills. As a businessperson, I AM fighting other businesspeople. I shouldn't have to fight the poachers as well. That's like letting coverts attack overts at will.
I suspect it's far more likely that once the holo-grind is over, there will be a renewed market for power from the bona-fide crafters. Right now, the resource market is completely hosed because of the massive amounts of grinding materials being purchased. Sellers of grind materials harvest their own power to keep their margins high, since grind metal doesn't sell for verygood prices. Once the grind ends, though, there will be a renewed market for quality/rare resources, and miners of those resources stand to gain much more by purchasing wholesale power and using all of their own lots to jump on rare spawns. I expect so as well.. expecially with space coming up. Being in this business since almost day one, leads me to the conclusion that this is significantly hurting my business at this time. Others may see a lesser affect, but due to my size, it's quite magnified. I'm certainly not discounting other affects such as the end of hologrind which also are a major impact.
How much I am specifically losing to these people, I cannot tell for sure. But I know I am losing, and I suspect it's on the order of more than a few million credits per week.
I still disagree with you on many points. 
But then I'm just a disagreeable person when it comes to my business interests.
p4Samwise wrote:
So would you say that you agree with me that "vendor poaching" is okay insofar as it doesn't steal business from genuine merchants? That's the main point I'm arguing.
no i wouldn't... because it always steals away from real merchants.... maybe not me, but some merchant who sells that item.
p4Samwise wrote:
SOE's intent and a quarter will get you a great big gumball. SOE didn't intend for houses to be decorated by dropping things on stairs. SOE made holocrons the most coveted loot drop in MMO history and then "didn't intend" for people to camp the force caves. SOE made the Jedi system based on profession mastery and then didn't intend for people to grind professions out to become Jedi. Heck, look at the "advanced BE guide" - SOE doesn't even know how the BE crafting system works, and threaten periodically that some currently crafted BE pets might be destroyed in a later patch because they're more powerful than intended, but they can't even formulate a response as to exactly what makes a creature "too powerful". Don't speak to me of SOE's intentions as if they meant anything.
Balkstar wrote:
Don't rules lawyer this, because its not going to work. SOE has stated in a direct question to themon the subject that this is not the intention of the skill. Try looking at Doc's posts sometimes.
It's obvious you have issues with SOE on numerous topics, but do you need to blow through everybody that gets in your way just to screw them off? What I have been trying to get through to you is that **edit** and complain all you want to SOE on the boards here. That's why they are here. Just don't screw over the rest of us with your game play.
p4Samwise wrote:
GoCanes wrote:
the fact of the matter is that placing a vendor, advertising on the planetary map, etc... are all skills granted to Merchants in the skill tree, not items that can be sold/traded...
Very true. But we don't see any people placing a vendor after having surrendered the skills. We only see them keeping the item (the vendor). Whether or not it's an item that can be sold or traded doesn't have much bearing on it (how many people do you see selling or trading manufacturing schematics, anyway?).
Having the planetary advertising go away when Adv III is dropped does make complete sense, though.
p4Samwise wrote:
Balkstar wrote:
Actually it does. Try asking any journeyman in the realworld to see how they become Master Craftsmen in their respective profession, whether it be plumbers, carpenters, electricians, or what-have-you. Their answer will still be the same. Hard work on hundreds of projects. In essence, a physical grind.
So in order to become a master plumber, capable of working on plumbing of all types, a plumber creates vast numbers of low-quality pipes, one after another, and then discards them, until he/she is suddenly proficient in the creation and repair of all types of plumbing? Because that's how a crafter advances in SWG. It's theoretically possible to advance by actually working on different projects and trying to produce quality items, but the penalties for doing so are steep.
I've written up a whole rant on this. Clicky linky.
Message Edited by p4Samwise on 05-11-2004 11:37 AM
Sounds like you would like to change the XP system to more reflect the ramping up of skills. Fine. But its off topic. My point is still there. You grind at working on numerous jobs if you are a crafter. Its how you grow in the profession.
Aquiring merchant skills is the only way to increase the number of vendors you own. To have say, 3 nice vendors, one on each planet, you need 15 points for artisan, 2 points Bis 1, 3 points Biz 2, 4 points Biz 3 for a total of 29 Skill points. THEN you need 6 points for novice merchant and 5 points for additional vendor. THEN if you want your vendors advertised you get planetary ad you need 5 points Ad 1, 4 points ad 2, 3 points Ad 3. SO Merchant takes up 23 points. Add it together and you get 52 skill points you need to invest. Thats 20% of your total skill points. 20!!! In what other profession can you bypass that amount of skill points and REAP the benefit?!!!!! Are you smoking crack? Guess what, if you dont have Artisan Biz 3 or Merchant skills and you want to sell something, then sell it to the Bazaar cause youre character doesnt have the skill to be a good merchant. It's a sad and sorry truth and you are just going to have to SUCK IT UP.
p4Samwise wrote:
I've already made it clear that my game play is not screwing you over. And you backed off from that point, but then said "but it's SOE's intent that's the important thing". Now you're back to saying that it's you who's being screwed over. Do I need to repeat myself so you can then go back to pointing at SOE's intent, so I can argue against THAT as a valid response again?
Whenever I argue you down on one point, you switch back to a previous one I've already argued you down on. And then once I've re-explained myself, you switch back so the cycle can begin again. It's a little annoying.
Ahhh.. Samwise,Samwise,Samwise...
It's looking like you are the one in the minority here as opposed to your rant that we merchants are a small few. You are nothing but a small cry in the wind.
Here are the facts of the case:
1.Buisness III which provides the user with the first vendor (Coke Machine) costs26 skill points.
2.The code SOE has put out now allows any player to drop skill points from the Artisan line completely while keeping the vendor.
3.Numerous sources from SOE have specifically told the player base that this is not the intended code of the game (a.k.a bug)
4. Individuals who exploit this bug have the option of placing the skill points reclaimed from the artisan and merchanttreeinto any profession of their choosing outside of the realm of merchant or buisnessman.
Lets take the least amount of points that any crafter could use to exploit while still being able to remain a crafter in the artisan tree:9 (removing 3 levels of the businessman tree).
9 points can allow anyone in a hybrid or specialist profession to go from 3333 to master. Weaponsmiths who could only craft E11 riflescan now craft T21's. Architects who could only craft large non-generic houses can now create guild halls. Needless to say a lot can be done with 9 points, which is the bare minimum that exploiters can release.
Just think of what can be done with skill points that could have been reclaimed andstolen from the gamewith what you have been a proponent of: Advertising 3, Hiring 4, and lets say Management 2 for the sake of arguing, since it will allow 4 vendors.55 points 55!! Exploiters get to keep the tools from55 points of skills for free!! They recieve20% more skills then everyone else in the galaxy.
Master Merchants, who have have no choice but to keep the skills locked up cannot compete skill for skill with these theives. And actually noone else can either. We become inferior players to them, simply because they have an axe to grind with SOE. They hate the Merchantprofession so much that they will walk over everyone else in the game. You are no exception to that, Samwise.
At every useless argument you bring up, I have matched you point for point, slapping away every useless argument you have. In fact you are the one that has been waffling, first by saying that this is a happy little bug that won't affect anyone at all to saying that there is no bug.
Face facts. Your arguments are worthless and you LOSE!!
Message Edited by Balkstar on 05-12-2004 09:15 AM
Disregard anything Balkstar says about numerous sources 3 of which no longer work for sony....
go read the online chat logs from the gamespy interview last night..which I will link as soon as the servers are up..
and you'll see balkstars little fantasy world is coming to an end...balkstar is dead in the water...
DingoBoi wrote:
p4Samwise wrote:
So would you say that you agree with me that "vendor poaching" is okay insofar as it doesn't steal business from genuine merchants? That's the main point I'm arguing.
no i wouldn't... because it always steals away from real merchants.... maybe not me, but some merchant who sells that item.
Balkstar wrote:
Hmmm... Steill waiting for this magical posting that SOE supposedly postedon a non-SOE site. Or was it a bunch of your litle fairytale friends whispering to you those little sweet-nothings that you like to hear?
I continue to find you amusing. I don't think you've cited your "SOE sources" once during this entire discussion.
As far as I'm concerned, both of you are citing fairytale friends. 
p4Samwise wrote:
DingoBoi wrote:
p4Samwise wrote:
So would you say that you agree with me that "vendor poaching" is okay insofar as it doesn't steal business from genuine merchants? That's the main point I'm arguing.
no i wouldn't... because it always steals away from real merchants.... maybe not me, but some merchant who sells that item.
You assume the vendor is being used to sell items. What if it'sbeing used to model clothes? Or to bark a message that has nothing to do with selling goods?
Can you promise me you will hit the "permentantly switch off vending" button on the vendor when you model clothes? Oh thats right. there is none.
Those vendors can be switched at any time vending mode and be used to sell wares. I'm sure this has been brought up on the tailor boards, but ask the devs to have the ability to creat dumbies for retail selling. Sounds like a smart plan to me.