Merchant Archive
Thread: The nonskilled ‘merchant’ problem – or be careful what you ask for.
Wire3k wrote:
SeraphinAnnie wrote:
I am really starting to be amazed...is that you still don't get it. They are not fixing the bug "instead" of making merchant better, geesh. We have our day coming, totally seperate from this. Yes, THEY took away your ownership of free vendors. I'll say it again: They weren't ever supposed to be yours.
And I'll say this again - I HAVE a master merchant, I have a 3rd account with some merchant as well. What part of this is unclear?
The part where, in 2 pages of replies, you neglected to ever post that you were a legitimate Master Merchant. The only thing I remember you posting was "I have merchant skills". I've reread through this entire thread word for word, and unless I somehow managed to miss it twice, you did NOT ever post you were a Master. So um, yeah, I guess you *do* have to say it again. Or for the first time. I'm not psychic last I checked. Now your posts make even less sense though.
As a merchant - what's best for ME - is what's best for EVERYONE. As a MERCHANT - my gameplay is diminished if others are handicapped, if equal and fair methods of distribution are denied to OTHERS. As a MERCHANT - turmoil and price dumping OR price spiking and monopolies (which can't exist NOW - but can if you mess with open markets) are BAD.
Wait wait...so explain that again? It takes away from your gameplay if everyone is not equal and things are not fair? Oh, you mean like how it's UNFAIR that people with no merchants skills could maintain the same vendors that someone who invested in the skills can? Wave to contradiction, because it's staring you in the face.
As a MERCHANT - *I* need a large array of tools to make my business work effectively and efficiently which we will never see if merchants as a class consider HAVING vendors the core defining aspect of the profession.
Uh, the whole class IS defined by having vendors. We didn't choose that. SOE makes it clear, by evidence that no other profession was given vendors as a skill. I'm failing to see how that hurts you. That's like saying that it's wrong to define the Rifleman profession by the fact that they can use rifles. You're alllll over the place in your argument, and still have failed to explain why your original post is just. You can disagree with the new item caps. You can disagree that they're removing the ability for non-merchants to have vendors. But if that's your problem, just say so, and actually explain WHY. Is it because even though you "have merchant skills", you wanted to drop them and now you can't? I don't get it. It makes no sense why you would encourage an action to put yourself out of business.
I still don't buy the "for the economy" BS. These changes will not hurt the economy. It does make people happy. It makes most merchants happy. For a year it's been unfair to THEM. These changes *make* it fair and make it equal. You're complaining how unfair it is to take back from non-merchants, but refuse to admit how it is currently unfair to merchants. That alone makes you lose credit. Thus, the reason most won't buy your argument that you're opposed to it for that reason. IMO, there's something you're leaving out. The pieces to this puzzle don't fit together.
You want to be able to sell junk limitlessly, without investing anything into it.
I HAVE invested into it and I don't sell junk, thank you very much.
Again, as you neglected to say you invested and kept your merchant skills, I didn't know any different. The word "junk" wasn't supposed to be an insult to imply that you only sell Broken Datapads. It was meant as a general term, like "stuff". No need to get all huffy. There's also no need to call "your" profession's Correspondant a loser. Wonder why people aren't supporting you?
Sevardos wrote:
Sorry, but I don't have any sympathy for wanting to keep the skills when dropping a profession. Calling a profession crap, not worth it, etc doesn't make it so. Does Merchant need more love and revamp? Yup, sure does. So do other professions in my opinion butthat doesn't mean they should disappear either.
/applaud
I can't believe that people refuse to accept this point, it seems quite simple and transparent to me. Yes, merchant may not be worth the skill points to some, but this doesn't mean that it should vanish and/or be rolled into other professions. I don't consider Squad Leader to be a particularly good use of my skill points, but it would be nice to have some of the skills that come along with it. Despite this belief, I have yet to invade the SL forum demanding that the profession be done away with and the abilities rolled into other skill trees.
The problem is really one of perception, and there is at least a little irony in the fact that the complainers don't consider Merchant to be a good use of skill points, yet they see certain merchant skills as being necessary to their gameplay experience. Merchantsneed to be strengthened and given the tools to make them effective "merchants" so people feel justified in spending the skill points, not the other way around.
Also, for anyone who still believes the disparity between the skill point cost of merchant and the abilities granted by itis too wide, I humbly direct you to the politician forum. If ever there was a class where you don't get full value for your skill points, that's it, yet people continue to become politicians. Strange, too, that the people who are requesting merchant be eliminated and rolled into other professions are not making the same request of politician. After all, if anyone should be able to manage vendors, anyone should be able to manage a player city, no?
Selling your wares through a private vendor is not a right, it is a privilege. One that should be reserved for those who have chosen to spend the skill points necessary to learn how to manage their vendor staff.
Are these the brightest loot collectors?
SeraphinAnnie wrote:
You say you don't blame the merchants. But your original post was full of "they need to pay", and "be taught a lesson" and that "a point needs to be made." What point? That they shouldn't of complained? Or that they should of posted nicer? It makes no point to merchants. They didn't make this change, and they can't reverse it either. All you'd be doing is wasting your own breath and time.
If you don't blame merchants, then you have no cause to try and punish them. You are saying that those pissed by these changes have/could have the motivation to try and ruin a merchant's gaming by ruining their business because their posting on these boards was harsh or spiteful, that's what you're saying yeah? Yet...that act alone, and your posting is created solely out of spite, which makes you no better than the people you want to teach a lesson to. Do you see that?
The only thing you'd be proving, is that you're bitter. Be angry, if you must. But trying to take away from other players' gaming experience, or to encourage others to do it, just because it will make you feel better is very misguided.
Actually the nerf will be taking away from players' gaming experience more than w/e you think wire is trying to do. Wire actually stands up not because he is trying to cause a fuss but because he is concerned with the economy and profession as a whole.
I support what he says, however people like ourselves are often met with torches of short sited ignorance who think that some how not having skills to place venders but still using them 'defaces' the profession, which is only really good for placing venders and nothing more.
The profession can be fun, but as it stands all it is really is a skill point sink for combat characters such as myself and many others. Many crafters look and say, it's not fair, blah blah blah, etc, flame flame, but never look at the fact that even the 24 sp it takes for management 3 in artisan can cripple a temple very badly. Crafters get to have the skills for merchant in the same starting tree line (artisan). For combat characters they have to pick it up totally separate from their skills, which is an instant 15 sp missing there, then all the other sp that goes into merchant and keeping what ever level you need with the up coming nerf.
As it stands, I went from being MCM M-rifles to M-Rifles, novice brawler, 4/3/4/0 medic, 1/0/0/0 scout so I can actually walk up hills (something CM allowed for) artisan 0/0/4/0, merchant 0/0/1/4, with about 5 SP left over. Can you see how this is a drastic change from MCM and M-rifles, a template I was happy with, to this which is all but useless. Granted I could go master melee something master rifles, or master 2 ranged professions, but I won't be truly happy with it, because I enjoyed my CM rifles template.
All that happens with most crafters is they invest another few skill points to get merchant, and put the rest into crafting. No real issues come from this, as it does not affect ones ability to try to function in the comunity in a PvE or PvP fashion.
Xconxors wrote:
Im so tired of merchants suggesting that I work with them to sell my wares.. Does anyone reallybelieve that kind of time sink could work out for anyone who doesn't play full time?
Lets not forget the huge up-front cash it would take to buythe relatively low amount of wares on my vendor right now. Only the established, multi-account holding, power gamers could afford to operate that way.
Which brings us to what this nerf is really about. A poorly disguised attempt by SOE to force me to get another account.
Question: What "exploit" (unfair advantage) does SOE never mention, and never will?
Answer: A second account. Pay SOE more money, and your vendor/ storage/ skillpoint issues are solved.
Hmmmm..
No, lets not forget about it.
What do you have listed, and at what prices. If its not much, it should be easy to remember, right? Just getting close will suffice.
Barris wrote:
The profession can be fun, but as it stands all it is really is a skill point sink for combat characters such as myself and many others. Many crafters look and say, it's not fair, blah blah blah, etc, flame flame, but never look at the fact that even the 24 sp it takes for management 3 in artisan can cripple a temple very badly. Crafters get to have the skills for merchant in the same starting tree line (artisan). For combat characters they have to pick it up totally separate from their skills, which is an instant 15 sp missing there, then all the other sp that goes into merchant and keeping what ever level you need with the up coming nerf.
As it stands, I went from being MCM M-rifles to M-Rifles, novice brawler, 4/3/4/0 medic, 1/0/0/0 scout so I can actually walk up hills (something CM allowed for) artisan 0/0/4/0, merchant 0/0/1/4, with about 5 SP left over. Can you see how this is a drastic change from MCM and M-rifles, a template I was happy with, to this which is all but useless. Granted I could go master melee something master rifles, or master 2 ranged professions, but I won't be truly happy with it, because I enjoyed my CM rifles template.
All that happens with most crafters is they invest another few skill points to get merchant, and put the rest into crafting. No real issues come from this, as it does not affect ones ability to try to function in the comunity in a PvE or PvP fashion.
You know it amazes me that you haven't yet asked for skill points to be increased to 2000 so you can just learn all the professions yourself. That's really what you want, isn't it?
Do you hear (or read, whatever) yourself? You were happy with your template, and then the big evil merchant profession stole some of your skill points so you couldn't keep your nice combat template. Oh my oh my, what on earth could you possibly do? Well, if multiple accounts are not an option, I suppose your choices are:
1. Come to the forums and complain about how you can't learn all the skills you want to learn because the devs haven't set up the game to suit your specific tastes. This in the hopes that the devs will see what you've written and say "Hey! this annoying person who keeps beating this senseless point may actually have something here! We should just ELIMINATE merchants! Why didn't we think of that before?!?!"
or...
2. Stop whining like a four year-old, make the tough choices based on what the game allows and develop a template within those boundaries.
I vote for #2 myself, anyone else?
Wire3k wrote:
The part where, in 2 pages of replies, you neglected to ever post that you were a legitimate Master Merchant. The only thing I remember you posting was "I have merchant skills".
So only 'masters' are legitimate merchants now?
Nice try at twisting my sentence. If I meant to say that only masters are legitimate merchants, I *would* have said those exact words. But I didn't, or anything close. You know exactly what I meant, but I'll spell it out anyways.
"Legitimate" = Currently *has* the merchant skill boxes for the skills he has. IE: They have 5 vendors, and they have Management 4. IE: Not someone who has 5 vendors and doesn't even have Novice Artisan.
"Master Merchant" = The profession you're saying you are. The profession I am. The highest skilled merchant there is in the game.
"Legitimate Master Merchant" = A Merchant who is *both* legitimate and a Master. I used both terms together, even though you wouldn't be master and not legitimate, because you never posted previously that you *were* either. Most people complaining about not getting free vendors, are not people who have legitimate vendors. Thus, the assumption that you didn't, much less being a Master.
There's also no need to call "your" profession's Correspondant a loser
Excuse me - when did I ever call Doc a loser? He's had a hard thankless job that at the moment I wouldn't take for all the tea in China.
That's the two chief defenses of 'merchants' here about this issue - sell on the bazaar - go hawk in person in front of the starport, the loser was referring to merchants talkingTO nonmerchants that have come here time and time again asking for a little consideration of their problems.
Since you didn't use a name, and I couldn't see your response as addressing anyone in particular, I assumed you meant Doc who posted above you, since he mentioned using the Bazaar. Then you posted something about "the other option is yelling at starports", so it followed suit with what Doc posted above you. If you didn't mean him, then cool. The point does remain that name-calling is counter-productive if you're trying to earn credibility with others.
And there are MANY problems, very legitimate concerns that EVERYONE has. Right, wrong or otherwise, so far those issues have been somewhat sufficiently addressed by using vendors to fill in the gaps of functionality. The workarounds are being removed without any consideration whatsoever by this community in general. Who is THEIR correspondent? Who is going to stand up for them and say - yeah, this is a problem and it needs to be addressed? The way they've been treated in these forums makes me ill. Oh yeah right - that's not your problem.
The behavior of many angry non-merchants on this board lately is rather stomach churning too, but have you noticed that? And no, it isn't "my" problem. You wanna know why? Because it isn't a problem at all. It's every forum dedicated to gaming that ever existed. Flaming, bad ideas, childish behavior...it happens on every board. But somehow I'm supposed to be sympathetic to the non-merchants who want to have their cake and eat it to, simply because merchants weren't nice to them on these boards? Come on now. Read some of the posts of the people you're "standing up for". They aren't posting the same thing as you. They aren't mad because merchants were mean to them on the boards. They're mad because SOE is taking back something they want. Period. Half of them post nothing but personal attacks, sarcasm, and flames. In my book, that earns you nothing, no matter your motivation behind it. Flaming people because they flamed you is not acceptable mature behavior.
It's not unfair to me in the least little bit that someone without merchant skills can have vendors. They have higher maint than I do, they can't change up barks or anything else that retaining skills lets you do. I'll grant you - there aren't nearly enough perks - and perks I - nor any nonmerchant would blink at loosing with skill - THAT is the choice. The fact that the class AS a class sucks isn't any players fault. Did you even bother to read my letter? Yeah, I think merchant should be WORTH the skillpoints invested - at that point I doubt you'd find nearly as much resistance. Throw in some measures to address the void left that vendors provided - or examine the underlying systems so the NEED isn't present - I think you'd find most people would be fine with 'merchant as a class'.
You personally may not feel that it's unfair to you, fine. But that's you personally. In the balance of the mechanics of the game, it was the only profession that you could do this, and it was NOT intended. That means, Merchant was able to be abused unlike other professions. IE: itwas unfair. I'm sorry that SOE agrees with that, but it's their game. Yes I've read every thing you posted. Twice. Yes, merchant should have more. And we're getting it eventually. That does not negate the need to balance something that was unfair. You could give Merchants super duper uber abilities beyond belief, and people would still be complaining that they have to spend the skill points. It's the way of MMO's. You can't make everyone happy, no matter what you do. All you can do, is try to keep things fair. So, that's what they're fixing.
And I'll guarantee you - as long as players fight among themselves the dev's have divided and conquered and you've given them absolutely zero incentive to expend the considerable effort that will be required to address these concerns.
No one in this game is A CLASS. It's a chinese menu where you are SUPPOSED to be able to find your niche - and yes, that is exactly what skill limits are all about. You aren't wrong about that - how many times do I have to say BOTH sides have extremely valid points? But it's not the merchant's fault that the devs have neglected to include the needed functionality nonmerchants need - and it's not the nonmerchants fault that functionality was provided by 'class' functions and their interests are reasonably in enough areas that the class is woefully insufficient.
You keep saying "I said both have valid points", but your arguments are always for the non-merchants, with mostly digs at the merchants. You tried to encourage people to ruin merchants out of spite lol. You can't claim to be working for both sides, yet be so blatantly biased. I never said it was the non-merchant's fault either. That doesn't change the well known fact that they used the system inappropriately, despite being told it was not meant to be. They were warned it would be changed, they continued anyways. Now that it's happening, they don't get sympathy, sorry. As I've said, I don't personally care if they had the skills. But it *was* unfair for them to be able to do so, and they knew it. SOE knew it, everyone knew it. If you know the kettle is hot, and you touch it anyway, you don't have anyone to kick but yourself.
But the same human nature that made merchants feel 'poached' is the motivation you'll find behind enterprising individuals that not only have no voice, but can't even get any consideration here. Youfelt disenfranchised - now they do. What this change has done is given them the motivation and means to really gum up the works are they so inclined. Normal economic cause and effect goes out the window when other reasons or causes become primary.
After all that, you still...still...have not responded to even half of my last post. More wordy sentences and changing the subject and manipulating the facts do not make any kind of point. You still haven't addressed the basic questions I asked. Why would you want to ruin your own profession? What's the real reason you feel this hurts you?Why is it just to try and ruin the gaming experience of others? You started off by saying is was, then turned around and said you didn't blame the merchants. You have contradicted yourself many times, and still refuse to clarify any of your stance. If you aren't going to, that's fine, just say so, so that I can stop posting on this thread. You started this thread, so you have to take on whatever counters are thrown at you, or it makes the whole post pointless as "discussion".
SeraphinAnnie wrote:
After all that, you still...still...have not responded to even half of my last post. More wordy sentences and changing the subject and manipulating the facts do not make any kind of point. You still haven't addressed the basic questions I asked. Why would you want to ruin your own profession? What's the real reason you feel this hurts you?Why is it just to try and ruin the gaming experience of others? You started off by saying is was, then turned around and said you didn't blame the merchants. You have contradicted yourself many times, and still refuse to clarify any of your stance. If you aren't going to, that's fine, just say so, so that I can stop posting on this thread. You started this thread, so you have to take on whatever counters are thrown at you, or it makes the whole post pointless as "discussion".
What exactly are the questions? Maybe I just feel sickened that people that are of a class I happen to be a master of are so myopic - not only to the legitimate needs and concerns of their fellow players - but to their own class.
Am I a master merchant yeah. I also have a master Bio, master tailor, master artisan and master doctor - used to have a master musician but altered that one a bit.
So - am I JUST a merchant - nope, it's pure utility as it stands - but I've ALWAYS been a merchant in these - over the last nearly 9 years. Would I particularly LIKE to keep it - might, if there was enough in it to justify it as a class. REAL merchants don't need a class - real merchants carry the skills around with them everyday of their life, game mechanics are another issue entirely. Merchant as it stands now is a parasitic class, bravo - you wrestled vendors away from everyone else - it's still parasitic - it produces NOTHING on it's own. People don't WANT to deal with you - they want the emotional payoff and investment of selling their OWN goods. The few that DO PREFER to deal with a merchant certainly can, always could. You may want to paint this as a symbiotic relationship - it's not unless they come to you thru CHOICE. A forced choice on splitting activites that are organically connected thru artifically created need vs. choices on preferred playstyle is no choice at all.
Do I think it's a good idea to seperate functions of production/distribution - nope, no more so than I'd try to convince anyone that killing/looting were seperate and distinct activities deserving of another class.
As far as this being the only activity in the game that operates in a similar fashion - beep, wrong answer, but I don't intend to drag all that up here. Look back thru old posts - that one has been hashed to death.
What part of - if it hurts the economy and game in general - it hurts ME is unclear? It will hurt you too, but if you aren't worried bout that - fine. I haven't changed my opinion on this here or anywhere else. There are many faces on this problem, not all of them have the same reasons - but all the reasons are bad. Just because addressing one specific there are different causes and effects doesn't negate the others - it's just a sliver of the bigger overall problem. It's not changing the subject - it's addressing aspects of the subject.
There is no magic bullet - no one size fits all answer. There are as many reasons nonmerchants don't want to 'waste' points in a pointless class as I'm sure there are merchants that have the luxury of available skillpoints that HAVE the class but wouldn't shed a tear if it disappeared. Either fix it - and address the functionality that it was filling the gaps for - or nuke it, but this 'solution' is no solution at all, for anyone. Merchant could actually be 'fun'.
Exactly what questions have I not answered?
DingoBoi wrote:
Only the collective bitching and moaning of you poachers will bring improvements like the mailbox and consignment which is something we want to... just very very limited so you can't sell things.. only trade.
Let me get this straight. You want thecollective 'bad guys' - who you have been particularly obnoxious too when they've come in here for advice and help - who do NOT have a correspondent or any cohesive methods of dealing with SOE in any kind of discussions to do what Doc and this board haven't been able to do in the last year?
I rest my freakin case.