Merchant Archive
Thread: Vendors Should NOT Disappear if One is No Longer a Merchant!
Actually, we're all more on the same page here than I think the thread's "attitude" has started to take. I agree that the current state of affairs makes the Merchant career nothing more than a "temporary" career. And that's totally unfair.
I also appreciate all those who realize that many of us never thought this was an exploit but simply the way the game worked and, as such, no longer have merchant or business skills but the idea of losing items is terrifying.
There have been numerous solutions to this, most being that the vendor retains the ability to hold the items up for sale, but one can no longer actually "sell" them. The crafter/user can then retrieve the items for storage until they re-learn Merchant or find a Merchant friend.
This is more than adequate to me.
Although I must say, from a philosophical standpoint, a vendor is still not a skill. It is the byproduct of one.
But insofar as the game is concerned, I can see how one might construe the vendor as their bloodline. And it's more than fair. This thread should have been entitled: "DON'T POOF VENDORS!" And those in favor of poofing vendors are in favor of causing more grief to the game. And we've seen sinch launch that poofing items is a sad state of affairs.
I like the solutions presented here. They seem very workable. I hope the devs listen and don't just decide to have our vendors start dropping off the map with all our items on them.
Lets twist this around. Because a vendor is more than and item, it is an ability, then we should be able to become master BH, Pistoleer, Doc, etc and still be able to use the "items" at their full potential. correct? I should be able to use stim C's even after I drop all skills realated to the ability to use these...because I still have them in my house or in my inventory, stims are just items.
Here is another example, I become an Imperial, get an ATST, keep it in datapad, become a rebel master merchant, take out my ATST (its an item!!!!) and run around collecting holocrons to sell on my vendors. Hell I could use the ATST against Imps, they did it in ROTJ, so it would not break continuity. You might be on to something.
If you don't think vendors should disappear, then they should be completely disabled and unusable, turned into an item, like furniture.
Otiamo
Owner of OHOH (Otiamo's House of Holocrons)
Mackle wrote:
I am trying to be understanding of the position you are in, but what you are asking is for us to agree to continue to be worthless.
Merchants aren't worthless - even if this is left alone. The person that does this cannot move their vendor, cannot list on the map, cannot make them bark an advertisement, cannot change their costuming. All that may seem trival to you - but those are the perks.
I have one - count them one vendor in this position. I have two accounts - my other one is a master merchant - and will continue to be so.
The one I have that would be lost if this was ever revoked wouldn't be horrible - but it would be very inconvienent. I have her parked in the basement and the ONLY time she has anything up for sale is when I've had a special order - she's used for that purpose alone. 99.9% of the time she's totally empty in her own little corner of the basement - most folks don't even know she's there unless I direct them to her - which is kinda the point.
If I had a way to list an item for sale that only the customer that ordered it could retrieve - I wouldn't need this kind of arrangement, but so far it's worked fairly well.
Given the recent Jedi/Holocron madness - some folks that might think they want a FS slot might want to rethink whether campaigning for this change is really a good idea - it might affect you yourself someday. Course - while I wouldn't mind having another slot for a character on the same account - I have zero interest in being a Jedi - I don't think there are Jedi tailors - are there?
Wire3k wrote:
Given the recent Jedi/Holocron madness - some folks that might think they want a FS slot might want to rethink whether campaigning for this change is really a good idea - it might affect you yourself someday. Course - while I wouldn't mind having another slot for a character on the same account - I have zero interest in being a Jedi - I don't think there are Jedi tailors - are there?
That assumes my point of view is limited to my own bias. It isn't. If I gave up my merchant skills (and I will be doing so and moving them to another character) I will give up the perks as I give up the skill boxes. Very simple. I don't believe in taking advantage of this loophole in the code, even if it benefited me.
I accept the original authors statement that all he wants is his merchandise protected. I'm for that. Merchants lose enough merchandise to be VERY sympathetic to anyone who is protecting their items. The devs CAN come up with a solution that addreses that while correcting the injustice that currently exists. It isn't that difficult.
Certes Ardhori said,
Merchants need to be made whole again, by finding and fixing the issue that allows people to place vendors, and then back out of the skill, retaining the use of the vendor. This undermines those that are merchants, and makes our class a throw away. NO OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME ALLOWS YOU TO RETAIN A SKILL AFTER YOU BACK OUT OF IT!!!"
And, like I said, at first glance I agreed with this. But it's not exactly an untenable position. The "skill" is in creating a vendor which, of course, those without merchant skills can no longer do. A vendor, itself, is not a skill by a byproduct of a skill. A"vendor" is an item in the game -- andit actually is treated quite similar to other career items. In fact, you can become an architect, create your own house, and then forget architect and your house won't disappear! Same with your clothes if you were once a tailor or your gun if you were once a weaponsmith!
I think you got it a little wrong a vendor is an item, but more in the line of one that takes skill to use due the FACT that you get a new one as you get higher on the skill tree. Kind of like the certs you get too be able use that uber cool gun or super mean meat shield that only skill will allow. So it's not like a gun a houseor even clothes...
Dae
There is another logistical issue here that nobody has brought up. First of all, let me preface this by saying that I am with everyone who thinks that if you drop the management skills you should not be able to keep the vendors you got through the skills. However you should not lose your stuff, either. I think disabling the selling feature of the vendors is fine. You have until 3 days after the items drop into the stockroom to pick them up or lose them.
BUT... The problem is, what if I still have some skill in management? The question is, which vendor should be disabled? Let's take a simple example. Let's say I just hit Novice Merchant, so I can now place two vendors. So I create two of the basic big ugly Business 3 vendors and drop them in my shop. Then I drop Novice Merchant, so I should only be able to control one vendor. Which vendor should be disabled? The first one created? First one dropped? First one initialized? This is a problem the Devs must consider.
The solution is easier if instead of two terminals I create one terminal and one NPC. When I drop Novice Merchant, the NPC should be disabled, since I no longer have the skill to create NPC vendors.
This problem can be extended to the various permutations of Hiring and Management skills. If I'm at Hiring 3 and Management 4, and drop Hiring 3, I should lose control ofall thevendors that I created that come with that level. If I drop Management 4,I should lose control of a vendor, but again, which one?
Any thoughts on this?
Octover wrote:
There is another logistical issue here that nobody has brought up. First of all, let me preface this by saying that I am with everyone who thinks that if you drop the management skills you should not be able to keep the vendors you got through the skills. However you should not lose your stuff, either. I think disabling the selling feature of the vendors is fine. You have until 3 days after the items drop into the stockroom to pick them up or lose them.
BUT... The problem is, what if I still have some skill in management? The question is, which vendor should be disabled? Let's take a simple example. Let's say I just hit Novice Merchant, so I can now place two vendors. So I create two of the basic big ugly Business 3 vendors and drop them in my shop. Then I drop Novice Merchant, so I should only be able to control one vendor. Which vendor should be disabled? The first one created? First one dropped? First one initialized? This is a problem the Devs must consider.
The solution is easier if instead of two terminals I create one terminal and one NPC. When I drop Novice Merchant, the NPC should be disabled, since I no longer have the skill to create NPC vendors.
This problem can be extended to the various permutations of Hiring and Management skills. If I'm at Hiring 3 and Management 4, and drop Hiring 3, I should lose control ofall thevendors that I created that come with that level. If I drop Management 4,I should lose control of a vendor, but again, which one?
Any thoughts on this?
Yep:
Me: <Click Surrender Management IV>
System: You currently have too many vendors to surrender this skill. Please Remove one of your vendors and surrender the skill again.
To fix the current ones simply use the date they were initialized. It isn't a perfect system, however it isn't a disaster if it picks the wrong one. You simply move your merchandise from one vendor to another. And while that can be time consuming and annoying it is a situation you created by surrendering skills you were still using so I have little sympathy that you might have to do some work.
To me the hiring line is much easier. If you don't have the skill to operate the type of NPC/Terminal/Droid that vendor should be come inoperable. It isn't difficult to figure out which one is which. Hiring I is a challenge. I don't know if it is posible to tell which of those vendors were randomly generated vs custom generated with the selection options you get with Hiring I. If it isn't possible to tell I'll concede that skill box from the equation until such time as they can code in a flag that tells them that it was created with the Hiring I skill vs the novice random generator.
I am not getting involved in this, it is weak, and I think you are tring to justify what I consider an exploit on a technicality, yes you get the ability yo create them, and use them.
If you are not a merchant, you get no vendors PERIOD.
You know....this IS weak. The solution for ANYONE that has surrendered their merchant skills, and still has the vendor is very simple. (now I hope I don't have to hold anyone's hand through this)
Step one: Take all of the items that you don't want to lose off of ALL of your vendors. (read: EVERY SINGLE VENDOR WILL BE EMPTY)
Step two: Delete ALL of your vendors. (READ: you will not have ANY VENDORS)
Step three: Create 1 new vendor, which you have earned through the artisan business skill tree, and place him anywhere you little 'ol heart desires.
Step four: Fill your happy little vendor with all of your precious merchandise, and tell him to sell it, or else....
NOW....when the devs patch out all of the vendors owned by someone with no merchant skill (read: the vendors that were slipping through this big exploit/ loophole) you will be content in knowing that your vendor is legal, and proper, and that you will not lose any of your hard earned merchandise, or money. It is simple really, just give them back, before they are taken away.....too easy. SHEESH
I disagree with the author of this thread : when you see that vendors are items like any other ones (houses, clothes...) you're wrong. A vendor cannot be traded ; it cant be sold on the bazaar. Only its creator can use it and therefore it's absolutely not the same as a house (because the architect who uses his own house doesnt use it as an architect but as a simple citizen) or a clothe or food or a weapon, all for the same reasons.
The benefits of the business 1, 2, 3 and 4 abilities is not really in the creation of the vendor, but in the fact that it allows us to own and use them. This is the difference with a weaponsmith (or any other artisan), whose benefits are in the very ability to create stuff, more than in the ability to use them (note that you can be a weaponsmith and still dont have the marksman's certification to use your own weapons).
Therefore, allowing people to keep their vendors when they surrender the skills is exactly as if a former weaponsmith was still allowed to create items that he's not advanced enough anymore to create.
Surrendering a skill MUST makes you surrender the benefits of this skill. What's the use of skill points if it's not the case ?
As a merchant, I dont want people who have surrendered their merchant skills to be in competition with me. That's not fair and i ask that it stops. The devs will have to find a way to handle the problem of people in the case of having vendors without having the skills anymore, but its not a real big issue, lets just forbid them to pay maintenance for their abusive vendors, it will let them some time to retrieve the items in the vendors.