Merchant Archive
Thread: Two types of people opposed to this merchant change
Zorkk
Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:09 pm
#27
DocSavag wrote:
I have seen a few people post about storage..I know its tough but vendors were really never meant to store things. That isn't an arguement I can take back to the devs. I can take the legitimate business concerns and try to make the devs understand that you guys have worked hard for what you have and shouldn't be put out of business with limits this low. I am doing that and will continue to do that.
Doc:
Can you tell me where SOE plans for me to store stuff?? I really would like to know, because other than a vendor, I don't see anywhere. I can't hold 1000 EMMs and 1000 EGP's in my inventory at one time. while I still have all my droid brains, manipulator arms, droid armour, combat modules, etc etc etc in storage too? what am i supposed to do?!? Not be a crafter? put them in my factory? If i put all my stuff in my factory, then how can i get the stuff in the factory that I need to run the factory to make the item i want.. okay and then once the item is made, where do i put the stuff?? I don't get it...
Z
arjuna1
Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:10 pm
#28
arent we all just spinning our wheels? there are a lot of great ideas out there but we are all in the dark as to the goals and technical restrictions. we do not have enough information as to the nature of the problem and the desired result. i doubt if soe is looking for ways to make us more miserable. however, i do wish they would participate in this collective brainstorming so some solutions could be found.
for instance, where does this 110 number come from?
what are the statistics on database items and vendor items and where are the chokepoints?
we all feel like we are being punished and frankly, are upset because we don't know why...nor can we participate in or contribute to finding a solution.
Brilyn
Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:37 pm
#29
< The ultimate point of the profession is the ability to market and sell wares created either by yourself or other crafters, using various tools that should have been exclusive to the class. >
No, you can do that with the vendor provided in Artisan.
You can do it *more efficiently* with Merchant.
< As a stand alone class, it doesn't have much to offer, >
Vendors and advertising. That's all.
< I can make and sell everything by myself fest its become on some levels. >
I can't make everything. At all.
Hyperbole is not conducive.
Stick to the facts.
As it stands, even if I had to go to another Player who was a Merchant, I'd STILL be selling everything I made, just to them, not to everyone.
< The merchant class should've turned out to be a natural partner to all the crafting classes, but the aforementioned ability to utilize the vendor without the skill points has effectively ruined that path. >
I disagree with 'ruined'. As a Crafter, who choses to play within how the game is *supposed* to be played, the ONLY thing I want from Merchant is a second vendor.
Because the rest of the stuff is crap.
< I must say I'm surprised you decided to keep the skill points if you truly think the profession is that worthless though. >
I needed a second Vendor.
I'm not about to exploit a bug for a couple skill points.
< What's your reason for keeping something you obviously disdain, and how would removing the classand giving it to crafters fix the database issue? >
I don't know. I don't claim that this will resolve that issue.
temptres
Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:42 pm
#30
I understand what your saying
but what about the ones that need a vender master two professions medic doctor they need scout artisain so they can keep the cost down for you guys.
would you rather have to pay 100k and up for a crate of stims or pay a lower fee from a vender?
doctors that harvest and drop harvesters try to keep there cost low enough for you.
but if we have to loose venders or limits youll be paying extreamly hight prices for meds
the same with all professions.
Brilyn
Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:44 pm
#31
< There's a VERY significant set of posts here that simply want to eliminate vendors...people who are free-riders who are pissed off because the free ride is coming to an end. >
Again, more generalisations.
Hey, I've paid my skillpoints. I don't *want* any more of Merchant than I have because I have better things to spend my points on.
Merchant, to me, is generally worthless.
< If you want to run a large, well-stocked store, you should have to be a merchant. Period. >
Why?
< To argue otherwise is to argue that there shouldn't be a merchant profession, and if that's what you want to argue, don't mince words, just say it. >
There shouldn't be a merchant profession. It adds nothing to the game.
The Vendors should be added into the existing crafting classes, with Advertising being slowly added in at various stages of each crafting professiontoo.
< I'd accept that as an argument as long as the devs had a compensatory strategy so that all my efforts at being a merchant translated automatically into something else rather than just having it taken from me. >
How does that work?
Most of the Merchant Profession is about cost *reduction*. Why do they have to compensate you for having 63 free skillpoints?
temptres
Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:51 pm
#32
nice idea i like that .
we would incorp two areas together.
hugs
TyrranSkorr
Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:02 pm
#33
zukem wrote:
I just realized that there are two types of people that are opposed to this merchant change.
1) legitimate merchants that do not want to see low limits. These people have used the skill points in the merchant tree, and who are really not opposed to this nerf. But they are opposed to such low vendor maxes. If these vendor maxes were increased based on experience, so that higher level merchants can place more items than what the initial proposal was, they'd be happy. (i.e. master merchants get unlimited, merchant 4 gets 400 per)
2) Exploiters. These people are strongly opposed to any kind of change in merchant. These people are those that grinded through merchant, put up vendors, and now have no or minimal merchant skills. They have no skill points invested in merchant. With this new change, they will also eventually lose these vendors. And they will no longer be able to restock the vendor with wares. These people want private vendors at no cost to them.
3) Combat based players who understand that if there is a cap it will be EXTREMELY hard to find the actual item they are looking for. Keep fighting this.
So the question is which type are you. If you are type 1. Then please argue all you want about this upcoming fix, and what a possible solution might be. This fix is going to happen. It's just a question now of what the limits would be.
If you are type 2. Then really you have no business posting here.Merchant is a profession, and soon to be a very valuable profession. Just like how chef was for a good portion of the game, they are suddenly the profession to be.
mhal9000
Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:33 pm
#34
Brilyn wrote:
< The ultimate point of the profession is the ability to market and sell wares created either by yourself or other crafters, using various tools that should have been exclusive to the class. >
No, you can do that with the vendor provided in Artisan.
You can do it *more efficiently* with Merchant.
Splitting hairs aren't we? You can make weapons as an artisan too, does that make master weaponsmith ultimately worthless?
< As a stand alone class, it doesn't have much to offer, >
Vendors and advertising. That's all.
Vendors (including changing their greetings and clothing, both which helps make a merchants shop a dynamic, ever changing place if done well), advertising(ad barking droids, planetary map), reduced maintenance on structures, being able to place merchant tents..
< I can make and sell everything by myself fest its become on some levels. >
I can't make everything. At all.
I never said you could make everything, but when you have double master crafting classes who still have working vendors without the
Hyperbole is not conducive.Stick to the facts.
I never said or implied you could make everything, but there are posters who have stated they have double master crafting professions, along with combat skills who don't have the skill points available to put towards regaining merchant skills. Those were the people I had in mind when I wrote that, if you need proof go read this forum for a bit.
As it stands, even if I had to go to another Player who was a Merchant, I'd STILL be selling everything I made, just to them, not to everyone.
< The merchant class should've turned out to be a natural partner to all the crafting classes, but the aforementioned ability to utilize the vendor without the skill points has effectively ruined that path. >
I disagree with 'ruined'. As a Crafter, who choses to play within how the game is *supposed* to be played, the ONLY thing I want from Merchant is a second vendor.
Not everyone wants to play within how the game is "supposed" to be played though, that's whereits become cheapened.
Because the rest of the stuff is crap.
What happened to sticking to the facts and "Hyperbole is not conducive"? Just because you think it's crap doesn't mean it is. I enjoy the class, you don't simple enough?
I think the item caps are a bad idea, and I assume you do to, which is what we should truly be expressing to the devs, not bickering amongst ourselves.
< I must say I'm surprised you decided to keep the skill points if you truly think the profession is that worthless though. >
I needed a second Vendor.
I'm not about to exploit a bug for a couple skill points.
Good for you, as I said I'm surprised at your response, and I can understand why you don't like the caps. I don't support the cap idea either. All I want really want to see is merchants with the proper skill points invested running vendors, as it was originally intended.
< What's your reason for keeping something you obviously disdain, and how would removing the classand giving it to crafters fix the database issue? >
I don't know. I don't claim that this will resolve that issue.
What are you claiming then, beyond
It
is
pointless?
Ywo
Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:44 pm
#35
OH I SOOO disagreed with your two classes....
Who uses vendors????? CRAFTERS to sell their goods.
So the other class of people not liking this Nerf are the legitamate Crafters of the game.
My Master Tailor Lill'Bit is one of the top well know tailors on Shadowfire. She has one vendor with over 800 items in stock on a daily basis. She also has Master Swordswoman.. working on def mods as TK atm.. because as a tailor you dont get any defense mods, scout 0-0-1-0 to gather hides and also has atrisan 0-4-3-0 for the one vendor. No novice medic so if she hunts she has to be buffed and never hunts alone. She hunts to get hides for her craft and to get away from the sewing humdrum. Now if you make her become a master merchant she will have to drop all combat skills and sit in her room and sew all day long and hope other people will provide her hides to carry on.
But ok merchants get thier way.. I then cant sell my goods unless I use a master merchant. Ok lets think this out.
1) I contact a master merchant. He can only have 6 vendors with 110 items on each ,hmmm problem he cant put enough of my merchandise on his one vendor to satisfy the customer looking for clothes.. Have you ever shopped for clothes? I have and having only 110 items is nothing and usually wonteven be able to find the color or style i want anyway. So that would mean i would have to use ALL six of his vendors.. now how much do you think he will charge me to do that ???? Prolly too much.
2) Another glich... I sell a Low-Cut top for 3500. do you think I am going to turn my inventory over to him and HOPE he is honest enough to give me my share???? Prolly not but maybe .. but I would not GIVE him my merchandise to him on consignment but I wouldhave him buy it from me at what I would sell it for... oh yeah he wants profit too or else why would he use his skill points like that.. so do you think he will sell it for 3500.. NOOOO .. he will mark it up. Here goes inflation and the old supply and demand. I would not even be able to afford to buy my own clothes then.
3) Now if a merchant does sell my clothes, the only way someone knows they are buying from me is to look on the item .. creator lill' and i also put 'by LBoF' at the end of every item.. but i send thank you note out to all my customers and some write back thanking me for the note AND could they special order some clothes. That is were most of my custom orders come from and i get at least three of those a week .How am I supposed to keep track of that . Will the merchant write me and email and say so and so bought xyz and so on and so on NO prolly not.
4) Also sort of connected to three is through the email i get when an item is sold .. that is how i restock.. how will i know what to restock ? Will the merchant write me a long email , I sell anywhere from 50 to 80 items a day, telling he sold 1 low-cut top this color and 1 refined shirt this color and 1 decorative vest this color and so on and so on and so on ..... I think not .How will i be able to keep my merchant restocked.
So yes i am upset about the vendor limit....
SO HERE IS A SUGGESTION OR TWO...
Iwish people would not accept such a low limit even for business 4. If there has to be a min, please start it at a min of 1000 for business 4 and then go from there.
Alsoallow crafters to have an increase of items in their homes, banks and shops as per their skill level so they dont have to use vendors for storage. Now a house has about 150 items, as a crafter gains experiense increase the house,bank limit to50 each level of what ever skill tree they wish to attach it to and when it is mastered add another 100. And since i am dreaming why not increase the number of lots we can have too *smiles*
But please for those empty vendors .. which i personally think we can thank the jedi grind for.. delete them or let the shop owner ban them to get them outta thier shops. And also who have vendors and not the skill to match give them a long enough notice to a) bring up thier skill to alllow them to keep them or b) empty the inventory so they are not out anything.
Ok I really hope the dev team reads this and takes it to heart, and with three accounts i really dont want to drop tailor and let anyone in Shadowfire down and naked. My Chars are just like i want them nothing more and nothing less. Please dont make me change any of them.
Thanks for listening.. reading
Brilyn
Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:34 pm
#36
< No, you can do that with the vendor provided in Artisan.
You can do it *more efficiently* with Merchant.
Splitting hairs aren't we? >
No, not at all.
I'm asking what the *point* is for Merchant. What is *unique* about Merchant, that isn't provided by any other class.
< Vendors (including changing their greetings and clothing, both which helps make a merchants shop a dynamic, ever changing place if done well), advertising(ad barking droids, planetary map), reduced maintenance on structures, being able to place merchant tents.. >
And beyond the Planetary Advertising and Vendors, the rest of that is mostly crud.
Having the class feature "Create Spam-droid" isn't exactly a *good* thing....
< I never said or implied you could make everything, >
Oh, now, seriously? I quoted you and all.....
You said (QUOTE): "I can make and sell everything by myself fest its become on some levels"
A more full quote: "As a stand alone class, it doesn't have much to offer, but this game was supposed to be based on interactivity between classes, not the uber I can make and sell everything by myself fest its become on some levels. "
(Emboldened by me)
< Those were the people I had in mind when I wrote that, if you need proof go read this forum for a bit. >
No, I know those people exist. They are the people who want full functionality of the Merchant class for 0 SP cost.
< Not everyone wants to play within how the game is "supposed" to be played though, that's whereits become cheapened. >
This I agree with, and this needs to be dealt with.
Caps on Items on the vendor is NOT the way to do it. That's idiotic, nonsensical and illogical.
The way to do it is: the Vendor runs a Skill check whenever you access it (much like equipping a weapon). If you have insufficient skills, you can only interact with it as if you were a customer.
IE: You can't add items, you can't remove items, you can't place maintenance into the vendor, and you can't retreive maintenance.
< Because the rest of the stuff is crap.
What happened to sticking to the facts and "Hyperbole is not conducive"? Just because you think it's crap doesn't mean it is. I enjoy the class, you don't simple enough? >
"Because the rest of the stuff is crap" is a statement of opinion.
< What are you claiming then, beyond
It
is
pointless? >
Hello there.
My name is Brilyn.
I *thought* you were following the discussion to date.
My statement of "Because it is pointless" regarding the Merchant Profession was in response to a point made by YOU.......
Quoting you: "Why else would they post in favor of disolving the profession? How would that help in the face of what SOE is trying to do here besides allow them to keep vendors they don't have the skill for."
I would post in favour of disolving the profession because(hold on to your corn-cob pipe, there's an opinion en route.....): the Merchant Profession is pointless, and adds just about *nothing* to the game.
My frustration in this discussion is *not* helped when the people I'm discussing this with don't remember what they wrote......
Barris
Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:35 pm
#37
zukem wrote:
I just realized that there are two types of people that are opposed to this merchant change.
1) legitimate merchants that do not want to see low limits. These people have used the skill points in the merchant tree, and who are really not opposed to this nerf. But they are opposed to such low vendor maxes. If these vendor maxes were increased based on experience, so that higher level merchants can place more items than what the initial proposal was, they'd be happy. (i.e. master merchants get unlimited, merchant 4 gets 400 per)
2) Exploiters. These people are strongly opposed to any kind of change in merchant. These people are those that grinded through merchant, put up vendors, and now have no or minimal merchant skills. They have no skill points invested in merchant. With this new change, they will also eventually lose these vendors. And they will no longer be able to restock the vendor with wares. These people want private vendors at no cost to them.
It is not an exploit. The skill is the ability to drop them, not mantain them. Thus, there is no exploit.
So the question is which type are you. If you are type 1. Then please argue all you want about this upcoming fix, and what a possible solution might be. This fix is going to happen. It's just a question now of what the limits would be.
If you are type 2. Then really you have no business posting here.Merchant is a profession, and soon to be a very valuable profession. Just like how chef was for a good portion of the game, they are suddenly the profession to be.
Brilyn
Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:38 pm
#38
Yes Barris, you're absolutely right, by the strict word for word statment of the Vendor skill.
Go get yourself an orange juice now. Good boy!
And play nice with the other children, the building blocks are made with cloth for a reason....
DocSavag
Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:38 pm
#39
Zorkk wrote:
DocSavag wrote:
I have seen a few people post about storage..I know its tough but vendors were really never meant to store things. That isn't an arguement I can take back to the devs. I can take the legitimate business concerns and try to make the devs understand that you guys have worked hard for what you have and shouldn't be put out of business with limits this low. I am doing that and will continue to do that.Doc:Can you tell me where SOE plans for me to store stuff?? I really would like to know, because other than a vendor, I don't see anywhere. I can't hold 1000 EMMs and 1000 EGP's in my inventory at one time. while I still have all my droid brains, manipulator arms, droid armour, combat modules, etc etc etc in storage too? what am i supposed to do?!? Not be a crafter? put them in my factory? If i put all my stuff in my factory, then how can i get the stuff in the factory that I need to run the factory to make the item i want.. okay and then once the item is made, where do i put the stuff?? I don't get it...Z
They don't intend for you to run a business that large. Isn't that obvious? Like it or don't that is the obvious implication of the changes and the lmitations you have on your inventory. I'm not saying I support it or oppose it just commenting on my read of the situation.