Merchant Archive
Thread: Merchants and Suppliers
RandomStatic
Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:45 am
#27
A quick question to the crafters on this thread: do none of you have a relationship with a player who is a merchant? No one in your PA or even anyone that has approached you to sell your wares that you feel you can trust?
I approached a weaponsmith just the other day. I offered to purchase 10 T21 to help develop a business relationship and we sat an talked for about an hour. At the end of this, he handed me a crate of T21 to sell on commission with the stipulation that I keep good books, which of course I do anyways, and supply him with the sales email. Why does this seem so hard to people?
If you don't trust a merchant enough to drop a crate on them, give them 5 of whatever they are asking for and see how they do. You don't have to drop your entire inventory on one merchant and 'hope for the best. If they screw you, get the word out. Crafters are a tight nit community and will support one another if someone says a player is a 'griefing merchant'. Part of being a business man is developing a good reputation and trust of those buying from and selling to you.
As for the price that needs to be agreed upon, I'm quite partial to 15% of whatever the crafter would sell their wares for. The idea is that the merchant needs to be able to sell the wares for the same price that the weaponsmith would. For instance, using the T21 as an example, on Kettemoor goes for about 30k. I wander in to a WS shop and ask to purchase a few of his handsomely crafted weapons and since he normally charges 30k, I ask to purchase them at 25,500 credits, 15% of the value he sells at. I purchase those weapons and place them on my vendor at 30k, a markup for 15%. If I buy those same weapons for 30k each, I still need to make my % so I would have to increase the amount I sell them for to something appropriate. Why would someone buy them from me instead of going directly to the crafter? If I have to increase my price to make a profit, THAT is when we are going to see the cost of items go up across the board. Of course, my percentages are always negotiable but 15% is my standard rate.
At this point I've done a few things for the crafter:
- I've removed the need for him to deal directly with his customers. Yes, he will still have people come by to purchase his weapons but now there is another avenue for them to tap if they want his weapons and he is not around or doesn't have any vendors at all.
- I've helped him by purchasing some of his goods and he has immediate cash flow from that.
- Once I've put the items up for sale, I'm going to be actively promoting my shop using barking droids, forum posts and chatting with others. There's more to a successful business than just putting stuff on a vendor and waiting for the credits to roll in.
- If the item I purchase don't sell, for whatever reason, I'm out the capital invested in those weapons. I have to sit and wait until someone, anyone, purchases those items.
Of course, this all pre-supposes that I have purchased the item before hand and not on commission. Commission is a far more fair way to do things as money does not change hands until the items are purchased but, again, there must be trust in the relationship.
Anyways, I've been on both sides of the transaction before having a MMerchant on Tempest and a DE on Sunrunner so perhaps I'm a little more understanding of the process that NEEDS to occur to make this work. Some people just aren't willing to extend themselves.
Things must change, things will change. Those that can't adapt will be left behind. Those that don't want to change are the ones that are causing the most (most being the important term in the sentance. There are plenty of others that are concerned about the changes simply because the limits are too low but that's another topic) uproar over the loss of unlimited vendor capacity.
Just one Merchant's opinion.
sw_nalanthi
Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:49 am
#28
i don't know if this idea has ever come up in these forums or not, but let me know what you think about it.
what do you think about having additional "business" bank accounts for merchants. I think that allowing an additional account for each vendor gained could be very helpful for merchants. many possibilitiescould arise from this setup, such as being able to tie an account to a specific vendor. you could even go as far as pulling the vendor maintenance from the connected account. further, additional accounts would be that much better if you were able to add users for the account. the idea there is that maybe there are master craftsmen that supply you with goods that you sell at your vendor, they then could have access to that account.
good idea? bad idea? have any improvements on the idea?
i know some of you may be thinking that SOE has better things to add/fix than an improved banking system. i agree. i just think that this would be the next logical step in improving the banking system and giving merchantsmore reasons to be a merchant. your thoughts?
joined42904
Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:00 am
#29
I'm totally with RandomStatic on this one.
I helped a poor master dancer on my server in a similar way. I let her sell a couple crates of repair tools on Bazaar on consignment. The cost of producing repair tools is fairly small. And the number of players that won't buy crates of them and put them away for when they are needed is rather large. So they sell well on bazaar for 6k each.
I make a huge profit off something that isn't hard to experiment and share it with a new player for 50% of the profit. Now the new player has a successful business of her own. And she can either keep selling my repair tools on bazaar or not. Totally her decision. Thing is...it's so easy to put them up and 3k each is such easy money for her. She'll probably continue doing it but it's ok with me if she doesn't want to. It's small change for me. But I'm not giving money away here...the other player is earning it while learning how to operate a business. And this part doesn't even require any merchant skills.
I totally agree with the folks who may not want to trust a merchant with no reputation with their entire inventory. Only folks in the same PA or who have long term relationships with a crafter deserve that kind of trust.
Sevardos
Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:09 am
#30
DocSavag wrote:
The most important thing Merchants need at this point is better tools for doing retail sales for crafters. A reliable, safe consignment system, and a better way to do sales reporting is a must to make the merchant profession capable of fulfilling the role it has in this game.
That's it in a nutshell and it's also the reason that I'm so baffled with the Dev's take on limits. Merchants need the space and the TOOLS to be an effective sales channel for the player economy. Doing one without the other and worse, making the one (limits) debilitating, acts counter to wha they are trying to accomplish for the profession.
I personally do option number 2 for various products like Chef foods and vehicles. Currently, I'm doing it to compliment my current line-up; e.g., selling crates of Bivoli on my buffpack vendor, but it's a large investment every month. I was only able to do this after months of building up my business and cash flow.
The reasons I've not gone the consignment route is; (1) I didn't want the risk of being put in a situation where there is a discrepancy on payment and inventory counts, and (2) the manual tracking and inventory was not worth the effort in my opinion. I already spend a huge amount of time stocking and tracking inventory levels, adding another layer of complexity would have drove me mad.
They need to add these tools at the same time as the changes. If they can't, then they should delay it to a time when they can. Doing it pre-maturely will only create more issues than the ones they are trying to create.
DirthNader
Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:11 am
#31
Gavvot wrote:
Nope, those put their armor on auction.
The others do a little lower compo armor for a little lower fixed price.
And the rare one that have more time then others sell ubese.
Non master usually have vendor with hundreds ubese shirts and that's pretty much it.
Wow. That's really eye-opening. I don't think I've auctioned off a set of any armor, save RIS. Actually, that wasn't even an auction, I just didn't want to seperate sets and I didn't think my customers didn't need to be paying eight digits for items in a travel pack, so I sold them via forum.
It's much different where I play. We've got about half a dozen dedicated masters at the top, and a bunch of folks working their way up selling stuff like Ubese, unlayered comp, and wookiee armor along the way. There's also a good bit of churn among the top armorsmiths, and retirements or long vacations are not uncommon.
Regarding RandomStatic's comments: I enjoy selling in bulk, but I would not sell on consignment. I'm not interested in building a "relationship" with one merchant. I don't desire to be tied to another player, which is what having a large amount of product out on consignment would effectively do. If someone comes to me with the capital to buy in bulk, I'm more than willing to shave the price a bit, and what they do after the sale is not my business.
joined42904
Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:32 am
#32
Looks like DirthNader and I have similar ideas about this.
Armorsmiths are going to have it easy after the nerf. Because on the forum a full suit is still only 1 item if it's in a bag. And most folks will by armor from a reputable smith in a bag even if they can't see into it. Because armorsmiths have to be trustworthy.
I'm not going to run anywhere near the cap even if I have two runs of ubese for sale simultaneously with 2 runs of composite. Armorsmiths I don't think are going to need to go to merchants for this unlike some other professions. At least the regular ones aren't. Volume crafters are going to have some headaches.
I've auctioned armor on my server too. My 39% stun/ 61% base armor...had a full run sliced and the top suit brought in 1.4M. I priced the others accordingly. But slicing armor is a huge pain imo and I'm going to let my customers do-it-yourself in the future.
Maybe a merchant would buy a run of stun armor and get it sliced. That's possible. These new vendor caps and merchant requirements I think will be good for the game. Merchants will sell things like sliced armor that armorsmiths don't want to sell.
I wish folks would adopt a wait and see approach to the changes instead of a "the sky is falling" approach.
MaDuece
Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:37 am
#33
RandomStatic wrote:
A quick question to the crafters on this thread: do none of you have a relationship with a player who is a merchant? No one in your PA or even anyone that has approached you to sell your wares that you feel you can trust?
NO. You are assuming that every crafter belongs to or even wants to belong to a guild. You are assuming that everyone knows a friend that WANTS to spend the added skill points to get merchant skills. You are also assuming that the "friend" in question is going to being playing the game when and for how long you will be playing for.
Its a game environment we're talking about here. People come and go like a revolving door. What happens when my friend decides to not log in for a few weeks and I've just completed the consignment contract order? What to all the stuff? Its not junk. Its high quality stuff that cost me money and resources to make. What happens when I decide to go with another merchant because I don't have the vendor and inventory space to just have it lie around? Is he/she still going to be my friend?
Things must change, things will change. Those that can't adapt will be left behind. Those that don't want to change are the ones that are causing the most (most being the important term in the sentance. There are plenty of others that are concerned about the changes simply because the limits are too low but that's another topic) uproar over the loss of unlimited vendor capacity.
Its much more than an issue about those that CAN'T adapt. Its about those that may not have the MEANS to adapt. Start ups will have an even steeper uphill climb. Of all the professions, crafting has the largest learning curve IMO. Getting ripped off or taken advantage of shouldn't be increased as part of that curved.
Placing a hard cap that is so small that it forces crafters into a wholesale to retail relationship is anextremely importantconcern. Limited vendor capacity will have far reaching effects on more than just the crafter. The customers will feel the sting as well. If they are accustomed to buying your stuff and you no longer have a means to deliver it convienently then you have to make 1 or 2 choices:
1) Get used to having to deal with a much large volume of custom orders. Crafters live in tell-hell as it is. Besides, like any other crafter that has gone through this, some customers have you work up custom orders and then back out of the deal.
2) You have to take your chances on additional retail merchants that you don't know. As in #1, I'm sure there will be quite a few merchants that place consignment orders and then simply change their minds. Once again, the crafter gets screwed first and then the customer gets screwed later.
Just one Merchant's opinion.
Just one crafter's opinion (but I'm not alone on this one, I assure you of that).
joined42904
Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:44 am
#34
I have a policy on custom orders that people who order from me learn rather quickly. The order has to be placed by email which I will respond to when I get online next. Without a confirmatory email, it's just a tell. This doesn't completely prevent tell hell but it helps a bit.
The more I think about the issue, the more I think that folks will be able to sell in bulk rather than on consignment. Most folks will want an armor or weapon or other item vendor in their mall. The established guilds are rich from missions. So it's no big deal for them to buy in bulk from the crafters and then put it up in their malls themselves using their guild merchants.
I think this is going to work out for everyone if we'll just give it a chance.
There is no need to trust the merchants with everything on consignment. And if you will let them make decent consignment earnings and tell them you expect them to reinvest it in the business if they are to continue to deal with you then they will probably eventually be able to buy your goods at the time of transfer. At that point they can't screw you anymore.
Brilyn
Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:47 am
#35
< do none of you have a relationship with a player who is a merchant? >
Nope, not me. Because I *am* a merchant.
< No one in your PA or even anyone that has approached you to sell your wares that you feel you can trust? >
Nope. I'm the main merchant in my PA. In fact, I sell other guildies stuff on consignment. And it's a royal pain in the butt.
< If you don't trust a merchant enough to drop a crate on them, give them 5 of whatever they are asking for and see how they do. >
See, I'm looking at it from the brand-new merchant perspective. 5 guns isn't enough to setup a business. A crate of *1* weapon isn't enough either. No variety, and insufficient quantity.
< I wander in to a WS shop and ask to purchase a few of his handsomely crafted weapons and since he normally charges 30k, I ask to purchase them at 25,500 credits, 15% of the value he sells at. >
Right.
Just so I'm clear here......
You want me to drop my price by 15%, so *you* can have that 15%?
Um..... no?
Feel free to buy at the marked price, and mark it up 15%, but I fail to see what you're doing for me, that's worth 15% of my markup?
< I've removed the need for him to deal directly with his customers.>
I *like* dealing with customers.
The only ones I don't like dealing with, *you're* not going to have to deal with. The ones who /tell me because they've done a search for Master Weaponsmith, and then ask me if I'm a Master Weaponsmith..... /rolleyes
< Yes, he will still have people come by to purchase his weapons but now there is another avenue for them to tap if they want his weapons and he is not around or doesn't have any vendors at all.>
Hang on? What other avenue?
That's not "another avenue" that's "another shop". Ie a competitor.
< I've helped him by purchasing some of his goods and he has immediate cash flow from that.>
Yes. You've offered him short-term gain, which is lower than his normal gain should he wait for a sale.
This is like long-term investment: "Cash your bonds *now*. You'll make *less* money, BUT I'll make money TOO!".
Is this some sort of trick? Seriously......
< Once I've put the items up for sale, I'm going to be actively promoting my shop using barking droids, forum posts and chatting with others. There's more to a successful business than just putting stuff on a vendor and waiting for the credits to roll in. >
Indeed. And neither spambots, nor spamming the forums are part of my advertising compaign, thank you, nor will they ever be.
< Those that don't want to change are the ones that are causing the most uproar over the loss of unlimited vendor capacity. >
/wave
Yup, that's me.
However, I will adapt, in one of two ways:
Option 1:
Use my now-crappy 60 item limit (Novice Merchant) to advertise my weapons. Simply stick one of each weapon for sale at 99999999, with a sales note stating that if anyone wants a weapon, to mail me directly, and with my sales price. Drop 2-3 houses, and fill them with Crates of weaponry.
Option 2:
Open my Force slot, and use my second charactor as a Merchant. Seeing as it takes zero effort to master merchant, this will be no problem at all. I will then use this merchant-mule to stock vendors, and he can tip my actual charactor the money.
I don't want to do *either* of these. They both suck. At least the second option frees up the wasted points spent on Merchant from my main charactor, though.
VarnaxDespin
Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:52 am
#36
joined42904 wrote:
I wish folks would adopt a wait and see approach to the changes instead of a "the sky is falling" approach.
You and I have been on opposite sides of this from the start, but at least you continue to keep the discussion civil, which I appreciate.
I am not taking the sky is falling approach, I am simple trying to point out we are being asked to change our style of play and the proposed new system has IMO has far to many negatives (time sinks, annoyance etc)to warrant its inclusion into the game ( I just dont see how its going to make the game more fun).
Just because we could in theory work with a new system, does not mean the new stystem should be implemented. Theoretcially we could work with a 50 item limit for master merchant as well, or a 30 item limit... but the game is not going to be better because of it.
We also need to explore the negative aspects of this on the economy, gameplay, convience etc... because they are somehow relate to how much people enjoy the game, and in turn that determines if they continue to play... less enjoyment = less play.
I have yet to hear any offical word WHY this limit must be inacted...everything I have seen thus far is speculation. Untilwe aretold WHY, I dont think we should start negotiating on what limited # is acceptable.
joined42904
Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:58 am
#37
Brilyn,
Not everyone enjoys special orders as much as you do. Some folks prefer to bulk craft and sell the bulk items. It's probably easier for WS in some ways because your best stuff is loot-driven anyway and not tedious. AS' s loot stuff is way tedious. Because the janta hides/NS components have to have the same serial number. And you have to do a factory run of them for each piece of armor in most cases. Not worth it except for yourself or a good friend imo. And if you want your ubese to be a special color that takes me a lot of time and I don't want to get a reputation for overcharging...well...some special orders are annoying and I sometimes decline to do them.
There will be crafters willing to deal with the merchants. Would you give a small discount to a customer or guild who asked you for 5 crates of weapons? I would on any armor I'm not using as a loss leader. And I have.
Not every crafter is a merchant. For those without 2 accounts who want to do combat and want their jedis to be jedis...they will have to deal with merchants.
joined42904
Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:10 am
#38
I think TH in January implied that one of the reasons was to reduce what he regarded as the development of monopolies. (He probably meant oligopolies and just misspoke.)
I think it's obvious to anyone that 50 items at master merchant is too low. Unless you are talking per vendor.
I think the present 110 figure is actually quite reasonable. It will probably be raised because so many people are complaining about it. But 660 items is a lot of items. It's about as much of the market as one person needs to be allowed to have in order to be fair to the other crafters. But that's just my opinion.
I think things will be fine under the new system and that the level of inconvenience to players...especially if merchants function as merchants and keep their vendors stocked...using multiple crafters if necessary...will be minimal. Good merchants can buy in bulk from crafters willing to offer bulk prices and sell retail. Heck, merchants may even be willing to buy in bulk from crafters and pay the crafter to use the merchant's factory. How doesn't the crafter come out ahead in this way? Maybe the merchant would sell the necessary resources to the crafter at a discount in order to get a discount. The bad outcome for crafters would really be merchants buying schematics which I guess could happen. Though really good crafters who invested in their 12 points I doubt would be willing to cut merchants TOO sweet a deal on the schematics. They would be 10-points most likely.
I think watching how all this will pan out is good entertainment value that those of you who leave will miss.
EvilHomerSimpson
Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:13 am
#39
Again. You can't post w/o using the word "oligopolies". Are you really that daft?