Merchant Archive
Thread: Some reasons why vendors should stay after you drop Merchant.
Glonoin wrote:
-For the record one of my characters dropped the last of his merchant skills last night to pursue another path. To do so he had to give up his last vendor because he was giving up all of the business line as well.
Doc, I am curious how this actually works - are you saying that a player is unable to give up Novice Merchant unless he deactivates all his vendors?
Dang, here all along I thought the fuss was with people that were dropping the class entirely and yet keeping the vendors. Come to find out anybody that keeps their vendors are actually still merchants, but just not 1337 enough by Yolner's (et.al.) standards to deserve the vendors they earned the right to place.
Wow. This gets better every day. No offense to the merchants who are enjoying their game and leaving other people alone, but a few bad apples are giving the Merchant class a real bad name.
Crying for nerfs are going to get this class destroyed from within. I have seen it happen - and honestly if it happens here I will be the wookiee in the corner rolling on the ground, laughing my furry butt off. That anybody could cry to have their own class, their own brothers,nerfedin any manner is ... shocking. You guys don't get it - they never stop at nerfing the stuff you asked for ... they do a total class 'rebalancing' and you end up walking away looking like the goat se guy.
No. You can drop merchant and keep the vendors currently. That is what the fuss is about. My point was that I didn't do that because I feel it is wrong.
But you are wrong about one thing. Even if they were only surrendering Management and keeping more vendors than they have a right to manage it would still be bad for the profession and unjust. You dont' EARN the right to do anything you don't have the skill points to do currently. You have to make choices. If you need the skill points from Management for something else..make do with 2 vendors. Or get someone who has Management to help you sell your merchandise.
Of course it does, there is no way to clearup or regulate this cheap loophole so they let it happen unsupported. This is the same as in every MMORPG that has ever existed, the issues is known by all communities of MMORPG's, has been debated to death in each and this si the position they all take... because as cheesy as it is, there is nothing that can be done about it.
However, the Merchant Vendor mod is still working exactly as it is described in the game and nothing has been said or presented to refute this.
Calling the working as described in game vendor skill mod an exploit while supporting (or actually doing) the cheap cross server loophole... is just downright hypocritical.
You cant present yourself as purists of the game who abhore anything that might go against the spirit of the game and are only looking out for the good of the community and then pick and choose the cheap tactis you use to get ahead. You are not only just as bad as the people you decry - you are worse because your on your phony high chair while you do it.
Yolner wrote:You people are completely retarded. By your exact logic anyone who drops master creature handler should still be able to call his webmaster and anyone who drops commando should still be able to flame single2 mobs to death. Dont you people realize how stupid you sound?
PS: Straun your the only **edit**ing dumbass moron here because houses and vendors have nothing in common.
Whos the moron? You dont even read the posts before you flame someone.
Okay for those people in the cheap seats if you drop a merchant managment skill you loose the ability to "HIRE" another vendor. You cant place it again....you already hired the person they are your employee....just because your not hiring doesnt mean you buisness is over and its out of buisness.
Likewise a commando who drops flame 2 - he loses the ability to use flame 2 because the box he got GAVE HIME THE ABILITY.
Commando Looses Ability to Flame 2.
Merchant Looses Ability to Hire a New Vendor.
Why is this so hard to understand?
Should there be a skill mod and description be changed? Possibly. But currently this is working exactly how its worded. We can only hope an open formal annoucment before they go delete everyones vendors with the next patch if thats what is intended to happen.
Lobaca
I am sure you were referring to everyone with your saintly message, but it was interesting that you never felt compelled to ask Yolner to tone down the schoolyard vulgarity. Even when it dipped into homophobic name calling.
Attikus wrote:
Oh and thanks for quoting my message when making your holly proclamation about personal attacks. We have someone running around calling people assclowns and asking them to eat his @$$ and you decide to finally jump in and quote my message?
I am sure you were referring to everyone with your saintly message, but it was interesting that you never felt compelled to ask Yolner to tone down the schoolyard vulgarity. Even when it dipped into homophobic name calling.
I responded the that last message at the time. I have posted three times in this thread asking everyone to tone down the flames. If I had the power this thread would have been locked a while ago. It hasn't been productive for a long time.
And the "dipped into homophobic name calling" was reported by me to the moderators with a request to close this thread.
Artaganan wrote:
This seems pretty simple.. If you drop the management tree you no longer have the skills to "manage" 6 vendors. They can keep selling the goods you have on em but you can no longer restock them..
Amen
You can call me a cheater andblahblah blah. I really dont care because SOE is on my side and you are a bunch of exploiters.
I only want merchants to be a real class and not just something that every cheap exploiter can get and drop in 20 minutes. The language was used only after you called me an exploiter and****** me off. Im not sorry forsaying what i said because the guy was an ***but I agree it didnt belong on the boards. Anyway
FIX THE VENDOR EXPLOIT
Glonoin wrote:
I am ashamed to see what the 'real' merchants say on this issue, and I am ashamed to wear my Master Merchant title. Any class crying for nerfs is pretty much a bunch of cry-babies, losers, and whiners. What are you guys, twelve years old? Grow up, enjoy the game you play and leave other people alone. Cry for nerfs long enough and get the dev's attention ... that's when the 150 item limit for individual vendors and crap like that happens. How about a 25 item per vendor limit? That would destroy this class right quick, wouldn't it?
What I find fascinating about all of this is the air of superiority invoked as the arguments begin to break down even further. When arguments are raised that shoot down the allegories to 'every other skill mod' and when it's pointed out that there are at least two or three other classes that lose the ability to use created items when they drop the class, we fall back to three things.
1) Semantics: 'It says 'PLACE' not 'USE' so it's FINE!'
The ultimate rebuttal of this is that the devs have stated that it shouldn't work this way. Whatever the current reading of the skill, you can be certain that when the skill is changed, the reading will reflect that change. At which point this argument evaporates. Above and beyond that, this argument only covers that it's currently functioning as written, it doesn't in any way address why it should be that way. To put it plainly you're pointing out that a gunshot to the head kills someone, you're not making a case for why that person should be killed.
2) Hot button: Don't call for NERFS!
Which is at the very least amusing. We're pointing out a broken skill mechanic, that you can take the skill and then drop it and retain 99% of the benefits of that skill. Can you drop new vendors or move the current ones? Nope, but then I haven't moved my vendors since I dropped them. This argument lets you appear to be 'superior' wanting to keep the game as it is, and that we're the nasty people that want to break the class. What we actually want is for someone who has never had merchant to be the same as someone that had it and dropped it, with the same rights and abilities.
3) The flames: 'You're Whiners!' 'You can't read!' 'You're Stupid!'
This is sort of amusing too. When you can't win the argument just insult the other person more right? If we return the insults then you win because you don't have to defend a strawman argument, if we don't return the insults then you've scored points and you win, right? Eh. Falling back to insults in a serious discussion is just pretty pointless, and attempts to take umbrage by manufacturing an insult out of something that someone else said is also pretty pointless. Either way it's off topic and a waste of time.
The cries for nerfs need to stop, or (trust me, I'm also an MCH) this class is going to be destroyed.
This class is far more likely to be destroyed by leaving the situation as is, where the merchant class has no value. You keep saying that it doesn't matter if you have merchant, you'd sell the same anyway, etc etc. So then, dropping merchant skills from non-merchants shouldn't affect you too much then, should it? The very fact that you keep arguing that it's a nonsense, purposeless class makes it clear that something has to be done.
Maxalus wrote:
UnfortunetlyI can see both sides of the issues with Merchant, being one myself, But the facts are this and it was created by SWG. Merchant has been broken for a long time and will continue to be broke. The only problem I see is that Merchants that drop the skills get to keep the NPC vendor, I say big deal. This bug or gift that the DEVs made when they created SWG is now a part of the system. If it is done away with it will ruin a lot of crafters and businesses. Keeping the vendors is a minor thing because all the other benifits are taken away when the skills are dropped.
As far as I know, EVERY benefit of the vendor remains: Ad Barking, Global Map advertising, their uniforms etc. The only skills we have whose effects don't stay are the bazaar fee decrease (a bogus ability) and the structure maint reduction (the only merchant non-vendor related bonus worth it's salt).
But it seems that some of my fellow Merchants what to be the only game in town,if you want to buy somthing.
Hrm. No, not at all, not even close. There are vendors available to non-Merchants, I don't have any objections to those at all.
He is a better idea for the DEVs and my fellow Merchants. Give the ability to the Master Merchant to be able to pull an items if bought from anywhere in the galaxy ( at a fee of course). This will cut down on travel and many more peeps will be coming to their shops if this option was part of Master Merchant.
How do you figure that? Since there's no way to access a vendor from off-planet, and since travelling is generally not an issue in game, exactly how is an ability for us to pull items from any bazaar going to make the 50 point SP investment worth it?
For those that want to sell to only Reb. or Imp. go set up shops in a city that has that factioon. As far as i know, I am the only Merchant on Rori in an a Reb. town and most of my buyers are from around the area. If an Imp. wants to buy an item they contact me and i make arrangments to meet them in a nutral location and take care ov business. So this entire crying about they get to keep this and I want that sounds to me like my felllow Merchant want it all, sorry its not going to happen. Let the vendors stay but the rest go away. Thank You.
The rest of what? What are the merchant skills that AREN'T vendor related? The ability to change a sign? The ability to save on the hefty 20 credit bazaar fee? Your fellow merchants don't want it all, it's the EX-merchants that want to keep 90% of the class benefits.
minusixa wrote:
hahaha...this thread needs to be closed and deleted. If it is an exploit, im sure we will all be banned and dealt with accordingly. Just a thought...does not a politician have the ability to PLACE certain civic structures? Do those structures disappear if he drops politician, or another lower ranked politician takes over mayoral duties? Nope. Oh and certain professions have the ability to PLACE city structures such as cantinas, med centers, theatres, etc. Do these structures go poof if these players drop their professions? Nope. As far as I know (and have experienced) these structures all remain. Why then shouldnt a merchant tent that is PLACED by a merchant stay if they choose to drop that skill? Why then shouldnt a vendor PLACED by a merchant remain if dropped? Maybe they should just delete all the civic structures, merchant tents, and vendors since they all must be exploits. They couldnt have actually meant PLACE was the ability!
Vendors are not structures. Vendors are not guns. Vendors are not food, pets, droids, vehicles, spice, clothing, armor, control units or resources. Vendors are not work product.
Vendors are tools, like crafting tools, like survey tools. If you give up artisan you can no longer use a crafting tool, ditto survey tools.
Merchants are not politicians. The Politician/Player city issue was a lose/lose situation, what they decided to do was to tie the city 'level' with the 'level' of the highest mayor to govern it. Any structures that person could place will remain as long as the city is large enough. If however the city becomes too small? Then the structures are destroyed. Which is probably why you chose to harp on the mayor level, and ignore the city level.
Secondly as to the 'They couldn't have meant PLACE was the ability'? Given that the devs have POSTED saying that people should not be able to keep the benefit when they drop the class, it would certainly indicate that 'PLACE' was not their intent.
Oh and the guy that is having the lil EXPLOIT tantrum...perhaps people might take you seriously, and you wouldnt be such a joke if you presented yourself in a more mature manner and actually made some **edit**ING sense.
It's quite possible that he's having his exploit tantrum because those of you defending this issue ignore all of the reasonable people who don't scream exploit and who instead point and say 'Broken system'. But it's easier to ignore our threads and harp on the guy who's screaming his guys out.
/resume gheyness
Attikus wrote:
Here is a bit of help for you though - Usage: "I agree in principle that every American should have comprehensive health care and pay no taxes, however, the reality of our budget does not allow this"
The person making that statement agrees in principle with something, but it doesnt mean he can or will do anything about it, or that the way things are now working are not the way he intended them to be.
This is 100% true.
Unfortunately for your point, the devs didn't say 'We agree in principle, but' what they said was 'We agree in principle that Merchants dropping their skills should not retain the benefit of those skills.' Which means something far different from what you suggest.
An agreement in principle, defines an agreement to the core principles of an issue with certain points of issue that need to be clarified. They're used in business, politics and the legal system, generally they're used as a step-forward from early discussions and from a MOU (Memorandum of Understanding), and as a step short of a final binding agreement.
While it doesn't mean that they're guaranteeing a solution, and it doesn't mean they're guaranteeing a change, someone with your inflated reading comprehension skills should realize that there's no way to interpret it as them .not. agreeing that the situation should change from what it is, and them asking for suggested changes.
The reason they stated it as an agreement in principle, quite frankly, is because they have no good ideas of how to implement it without someone getting hosed and if the community doesn't either than having only 'agreed in principle' they can still say 'Sorry it didn't work out'.
But they're not at that point yet.