Merchant Archive

Thread: As part of the merchant change, can we raise resource stack size to 1000k, and crate size to 1000?

Astev_Aris
Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:43 pm
#14






Avair wrote:

Inflation is the 'average' change in the cost of goods and service. Productivity growth (from efficiencygains)doesn't result in inflation. In fact, it's more likely to result in deflation as the cost of goods and services becomes cheaper, therefore merchants can charge less and still be profitable.


What will result in inflation is lots of extra cash in the system (think what would happen if they doubled all mission payouts) or scarces goods. Now what would cause scarce goods I wonder? Perhaps driving crafters away from the game by making craftingunnecessarily more difficult through overly complex interfaces or silly vendor caps?


As far a preventing resource hording, I have serious doubts a 100k stack stops anyone. Making stack 1000k versus 100k make 1 stack out of 10. Before the vendor caps, Infinity/10 = Infinity/1. So arguing that it was put into place to stop hoarding is silly. It was just a happenstance design decision they left in. Assume a medium grade merchant with 2500 storage (10 vendors), who devotes only 4 of his vendors to storage and stores items in travel packs.


1000 items* 50 stacks/pack * 100,000/stack = 5,000,000 resources.


Lets take it further and say he uses all of his vendor space for storage and gets master merchant (12 vendors, 300/vendor) to do it.


3600 items * 50 * 100,000= 1,800,000,000 resources


When you can convince me that the 'hording masses of evil' (which everyone is so concerned about) are going to be concerned about a 'puny' storage cap of 1.8 billion resources, then I rethink things. Until lets operate on the assumption that if someone wants to horde resources, they will horde as much as they want to. So 'hording' is a weak argument.


So the only real effect of small stacks and crate sizes is players have extra makework for crafters. And let me tell you, I don't find it enjoyable to load a factory with a 100 GP/EMM crateswhen I could just have 3 crates of 1000 instead of 100 crates of 25. I do it cause I have to, but it ain't fun. And do you think a crate of 1000 GP modules is unbalancing? Frankly, I don't care about storage space really, if it took up 40 spaces i don't care, i just want one stack to worry about not forty.


P.S. Check me on my math for storage please, it's very late in the day for me to doing dangerous things like multiplication.


"Fear the 1000 GP Module crate. It will destroy the game!"






An excellent post Avair. I was pretty sure I was right about the inflation/deflation thing, but hey, I'm just an HTML monkey, not a business major.


People will hoard regardless of the stack size, they'll just have to find more storage, which someone will always find a way to do if they are determined enough.And I'm not sure what the problem is as far as raising it is concerned. It wasmentioned before thata stack of 100K looks the same to the DB as a stack of 1000K - they're both one item - so it would seem to me that increasing the stack size would actually alleviate some strain on the server.



___________________________________________________________________

Astev Aris. (Formerly) Master Artisan/Architect/Shipwright
  • Founding Mayor of Skyfar (Retired) - Naboo, Bloodfin, -3980 6350.

    For those who may be unaware, this is a lame-a$$ sig.
  • Bunlar
    Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:05 pm
    #15



    Hero_DarkJedi wrote:


    DaunteDelfuego wrote:
    I think these are reasonable, and will compliment the merchant changes nicely. Plus, it will make the game much more enjoyable for crafters.



    The answer, everytime it has been asked is "no".
    As the rest of the folks have said ... it serves to limit hoarding. Especially when things such as "power" are concerned.
    ie: Weapon Powerups ... 10 to a crate.
    Why? cause powerups are very powerful ... and with power comes expense ... in this case "inventory" space.DIV>




    That's a silly argument. I can carry around a crate of 25 power hammers and a crate of 25 composite chest plates, but 25 dinky little powerups (which take 10 units of resources each) fills up 3 crates.



    ---------------

    Bunlar - Valcyn - 12-point Master Armorsmith
    BunCo Armorworks
    Vendors in Craft City Mall just SE of Theed, Naboo, at -4189, 3372
    Hero_DarkJedi
    Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:12 pm
    #16






    Astev_Aris wrote:



    Can you explain to me how increased goods and lower prices are a symptom of inflation? Increased competition, perhaps, which drives prices down, as you so perfectly illustrated, but inflation is quite the opposite of what you're describing above.


    The argument put forth by the Architects was that increased stack sizes would decrease the number of discrete items in the game (i.e., one stack of 1,000,000 as opposed to 10 stacks of 100,000) and so improve database performance. Seemed logical to me, especially with all the other measures (such as this vendor nerf) being taken to reduce database load. But for whatever reason, they didn't accept it.






    Sorry ... meant defaltion ...


    I don't think the issue is valid decrete items ... I think the issue has been storage of said decrete items ... by folks that should not be able to store them ... that will now change.


    If you take out "storage" from the game dynamics you loose something in the game. Managing storage, in some ways, is a mini game ... and some folks are better at it then others and propser because of it.


    Now, once they start to limit how many structures you can "admin" the cycle of storage management will just about be complete. (and yes, they will control cross lot swapping somehow and this seems the easiest way to do it, just put a hard cap on how many structures your name can be added to as admin)






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    Hero_DarkJedi
    Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:17 pm
    #17






    Sigrun wrote:





    Hero_DarkJedi wrote:



    ie: Weapon Powerups ... 10 to a crate.


    Why? cause powerups are very powerful ... and with power comes expense ... in this case "inventory" space.







    That is just TOO funny... Yeah, those weapon powerups is OOOBAH! Phear my VK's now, you evil, mean, nasty (newly weakened by my powerup) CM/Rifleman/Jedi!


    LMFAO!







    I am sure you got no Arse left to laugh off.


    Why did they nerf Probots way back when? why did they drop the CH level down to 10?


    VK is not really the *best* example of a powerup ... bt 33% more damage is 33% more damage ... that's like 1/3 of an extra person at your side.So having it limited to 10 per crate means it takes up more inventory ... and inventory management is a game ... and you have to judge whether to bring along those extra couple of crates of powerups ... or whether you want that space for loot or something.


    It's a valid argument ... your argument? non-existent ... just another twit in the crowd.





    '=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='
    Hero--[Hero Built]Weapons
    ~ ~M a s t e rW e a p o n S m i t hS i n c e8 / 1 8 / 0 3~ ~
    [Coronet Mall, Corellia: 910, -4690]-[EPOC Mall, Naboo: -3950, 3885]
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    Resource and Loot Drop Off: [Hero's Workshop, South Coronet, Corellia: 400, -6050]
    Avair
    Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:55 pm
    #18







    1000 items* 50 stacks/pack * 100,000/stack = 5,000,000 resources.


    3600 items * 50 * 100,000= 1,800,000,000 resources


    P.S. Check me on my math for storage please, it's very late in the day for me to doing dangerous things like multiplication.





    Told you math was dangerous this late in the day, my numbers are full order of magnitude off. The actual equation is..


    1000 * 50 * 100,000 = 5,000,000,000 resources - Thats 9 zeros not 6 for a total of five billion not million. Despite my poor math skill, it only stresses that hordeing will happen. So with 4 vendors any novice merchant merchant with a single efficiency line can store billions of resources.


    By the way, as I seem to be getting completely sloppy, can anyone tell me how I can edit these posts?





    Avair Darkwater
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    Srednii
    Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:37 pm
    #19

    This has been proposed and shot down already by the devs, they're never increasing stack sizes. They used the ever delightfull boogeyman I mean monopoly argument as a reason.



    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Sre'dni Vashtar - Bria
    sv Armoury -4976, 2712 Corellia
    Be0Wulfe
    Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:17 am
    #20

    Nice idea, oft suggested, implies it gets the inverse amount of attention from SOE.

    Don't hold your breath.



    Ackepawa Ackepawi (AA Kriegswerk)
    At the Old Masters Hall of Vendors - Weapons, Armor, Droids, BE Clothes, Vehicles, Resources & more!
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    Astev_Aris
    Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:34 am
    #21






    Hero_DarkJedi wrote:


    The answer, everytime it has been asked is "no".


    As the rest of the folks have said ... it serves to limit hoarding. Especially when things such as "power" are concerned.


    ie: Weapon Powerups ... 10 to a crate.


    Why? cause powerups are very powerful ... and with power comes expense ... in this case "inventory" space.


    100k stacks of resources are here to stay ... if anything, the Dev's would reduce it, not enlarge it. I would say the same thing with crates ... if anything they would bring the stacks down to 10 *if* they did anything.


    It's all about time vs reward.


    The easier it is, the more you make with less time .. which causes inflation. Imagine for a moment they did increase it all ... you would say "great, takes me less time" ... then again, takes everybody less time ... which allows some folks to produce more ... and they start to need to drive business so they charge less ... then you have to charge less to get your market back ... you are now making less from more ... you have to make more ... which takes more time. It's a vicious circle :-) ... once you have gone round the circle you would come back and ask for crates to get changed to 1,000 .... rinse and repeat.





    Can you explain to me how increased goods and lower prices are a symptom of inflation? Increased competition, perhaps, which drives prices down, as you so perfectly illustrated, but inflation is quite the opposite of what you're describing above.


    The argument put forth by the Architects was that increased stack sizes would decrease the number of discrete items in the game (i.e., one stack of 1,000,000 as opposed to 10 stacks of 100,000) and so improve database performance. Seemed logical to me, especially with all the other measures (such as this vendor nerf) being taken to reduce database load. But for whatever reason, they didn't accept it.




    ___________________________________________________________________

    Astev Aris. (Formerly) Master Artisan/Architect/Shipwright
  • Founding Mayor of Skyfar (Retired) - Naboo, Bloodfin, -3980 6350.

    For those who may be unaware, this is a lame-a$$ sig.
  • Sigrun
    Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:56 am
    #22






    Hero_DarkJedi wrote:



    ie: Weapon Powerups ... 10 to a crate.


    Why? cause powerups are very powerful ... and with power comes expense ... in this case "inventory" space.







    That is just TOO funny... Yeah, those weapon powerups is OOOBAH! Phear my VK's now, you evil, mean, nasty (newly weakened by my powerup) CM/Rifleman/Jedi!


    LMFAO!




    Ingame Names: Sif @ Bria, Chilastra, Flurry, Naritus, Starsider | Hiordis @ Kettemoor | Freya @ Tempest
    Quotable: It's pretty freaking underwhelming when the story turns out to be you, alone, in a field, for two weeks, punching toads. | At least SOE lasted a year before they went Turbine on us.
    Ecke
    Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:25 am
    #23

    Hum.. it migth be great. but i think this would be quite dangereous.....


    hav'nt you ever lost a crate of resources because of a bug or a manipulation error ?


    loosing a crate of 100 k is bad.. but can be repaired... loosing a crate of 1M... uuuh O.o .. goodbye

    Sigrun
    Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:16 am
    #24






    Hero_DarkJedi wrote:





    Sigrun wrote:





    Hero_DarkJedi wrote:



    ie: Weapon Powerups ... 10 to a crate.


    Why? cause powerups are very powerful ... and with power comes expense ... in this case "inventory" space.







    That is just TOO funny... Yeah, those weapon powerups is OOOBAH! Phear my VK's now, you evil, mean, nasty (newly weakened by my powerup) CM/Rifleman/Jedi!


    LMFAO!







    I am sure you got no Arse left to laugh off.


    Why did they nerf Probots way back when? why did they drop the CH level down to 10?


    VK is not really the *best* example of a powerup ... bt 33% more damage is 33% more damage ... that's like 1/3 of an extra person at your side.So having it limited to 10 per crate means it takes up more inventory ... and inventory management is a game ... and you have to judge whether to bring along those extra couple of crates of powerups ... or whether you want that space for loot or something.


    It's a valid argument ... your argument? non-existent ... just another twit in the crowd.







    /chuckle


    Ok, for grins let's play a different game with this...


    Doc "powerups" A.K.A. "buffs" come in... crates of 50. Each buff pack you pull out of that crate has ~20 uses. Each use of a buff pack lasts ~3 hours. Each buff increases your stats by ~2400 points, which triples or quadruples your stats, depending on how you've got them organized. So they're like an additional 3-4 people.


    Of course, you have to buff 6 stats to get the full benefit and you have to take packs out of crates, so inventory space is TWELVEWHOLE SLOTSif you carry the crates and the packs. So in that set of 12 inventory slots, you get the equivalent of 3.5 additional people fighting at your side for approximately 3000 hours.


    Let's contrast that to powerups. Each powerup gives you the equivalent of 33% of a person... sorta... for 100 "shots". 100 shots takes maybe 5 minutes. There are 10 powerups to a crate. To achieve the equivalent benefit ofa crated run ofbuff packs (3.5 people with you for 3000 hours), you would need about 10,800 crates of powerups. I'm thinking that's a bit larger than the 12 inventory slots required by the doc buff packs.




    Ingame Names: Sif @ Bria, Chilastra, Flurry, Naritus, Starsider | Hiordis @ Kettemoor | Freya @ Tempest
    Quotable: It's pretty freaking underwhelming when the story turns out to be you, alone, in a field, for two weeks, punching toads. | At least SOE lasted a year before they went Turbine on us.
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