Merchant Archive
Thread: Merchant Item Limits Focus Thread: Please try to be constructive and rational (Pt 2)
Korrack
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:10 am
#14
Wow, this seems to be the rocking partytime forum now. I see all the same old crap is still goin on eh Doc? Let me voice some opionions here as a non merchant now...
I have been a Master Merchant 3 times on 2 different toons. I have been a master Artisan, Master Droid Engineer, Resource Hunter and loot seller. What do any of these professions have in common? They all need vendors to sell things.
Now, I have been watching people complain since day 1 about the need to have merchant skills to have a vendor being constrictive and stupid. Well folks, if you wanna be a Master Weaponsmith and a Master Artisan, don't you think it wouled be wise to invest a bit of skill points in merchant? Instead of say? I dunno TKM or Master Rifle or some high end combat profession? Be realistic, you want to make money selling things, that is why you are a crafter. And no, just because you are a crafter doesn't mean you should automatically be given vendors. Vendors are for merchants, they were intended to be for merchants, and despite the fact that it says "place" in the skill boxes, the developers have numerous times stated it was not intended to be just place and people should need some merchant skills to operate vendors. So, no need to go that route.
With that given now, you need some sort of merchant skills to have vendors, so what do the developers hand the merchants now..item limits as was discussed months ago. How much for a vendor? Umm, no thanks. 100 items on a vendor is ridiculous. When I was a DE, I'd have 100 packs of droid batteries, at a minimum. The only think I can see is that the developers are doing one of two things, they are either trying to get people to quit crafting and go combat, or they are trying to force everyone to play daily. All again because of a bloated database.
Regardless, if they do this total fix, they WILL lose crafters, and not just those who had vendors but had dropped merchant, but those crafters who need to stock 1000s of items. Can you imagine walking up to your favorite crafter's vendor and finding 100 items on it. Wow, nice selection. Or, if it sells out, you have to wait till they restock. So, if the person cannot play daily, they will lose business, lose customers and basically want to quit. There goes one less crafter on the server. Multiply this by 1000s for all the pissed off crafters who need more items in stock.
As a customer now, this is a sad day because I will find even more empty vendors, and I will certainly buy less stuff. And when I find a vendor I'll end up clearing it out because I'll be afraid I'll have to wait a week or more to buy more of that item.
Pumping up the overall limits is a MUST, not a nicety. Anyway, wanted to drop my mumbling 2 cents. How ya doin Doc? I miss ya 
Krakae
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:15 am
#15
JudoKnight wrote:
My proposal is this
Bus III - 100 Items
Bus IV - +50 items
Novice - +100 Items
For each skill box completed in Merchant Class +50 items
Master Merchant +100
This would total about 1050 items per Vendor.
This would allow us that cannot master Merchant to still have a reasonable amount per vendor.
Sounds fair.
Also give MASTER merchants the ability to give admin rights to a vendor for either a fixed fee or a percentage of the sale(optional)from that vendorand also there should be agreed on a item cap on the vendor between the master merchant and creafter/seller so the master merchant can divide his item cap from vendor to vendor depending on how much the crafter/seller needs.
And ofcourse remove the vendors that many people dont have skills for.
LadyGrace
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:15 am
#16
Item limits need to be considerably higher, both at Master Merchant and at the key intermediate levels, Business 3 and Novice Merchant, in order to preserve diversity of goods in the marketplace.
I originally posted a system that spread theitem increasesover the entire merchant tree, to allow for a variety of templates, however I think I recall Doc posting something along the lines of that makingit too skill-point expensive for semi-Merchants and its a fair point. I'd be happy enough to see a simplified system of 1000 items per vendor. This would allow a crafter to have one functionalvendor at Business 3 with a minimal skill point investment, while a Master Merchant would have a total of 6000 items, 1000 on each vendor.
*whisper* Okay to be honest I could live with 500 per vendor for a total of 3000 at master, preferably aggregate so that it could be spread in any combination over any number of vendors up to your maximum. But if SOE is going to start with a low offer, I'd rather counter with a high one in the hopes of ending up in an acceptable middle ground.
My biggest concern about the current proposal is that such low limits will limit the type of goods sold to only those most popular and most profitable. As a customer, I don't want to have to resort to only being able to get what I need by putting in a custom order with crafters who are already worn out just trying to keep up with stocking their limited shelves. I also don't want to lose the opportunity of picking up bargains, after all that's what makes shopping fun!! Who would stock something really cheap when the item space could be used for something more profitable?
As a career merchant, my concerns are that I will be unable to expand my business as planned. I will have to rethink or drop one of my current contracts, and I will have no item space to pick up any new ones. I know the game system is not well geared toward career merchants at this stage, but I would hope that revamps of the merchant class would include consideration of our needs.
Telmat
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:17 am
#17
Maybe it was my post about the simple workaround of using backpacks for storage and possible solutions that got the thread deleted, but I don't think so.
That discussion seemed very germane, and folks were for the most part on topic. Not everyone agreed, but that is to be expected. I think deleting that thread shows how much the folks at SOE value even our ability to have a discussion about their proposed changes.
How are vendors going to be unable to store things with the intended code if:
(1) a suit of armor needs to be one item and not 10 when placed in a backpack to allow for anything approaching a sensible stock of armor even for minor crafters.
(2) a backpack counts as one item. So even at business III storage space for backpacks if the backpack counts as only one item is: 50 items per pack times 50 items equals 2500 items. Unless the devs prevent it, there is a simple workaround by just putting items IN PACKS and continuing to use vendors as storage.
Maybe the workaround is to put a 2-3M max price on all backpacks and let folks look inside the packs. This is more than a suit of amor in the present economy and would serve as a deterrent to storing resources on vendors in this way. Because if you do...I'll come along and buy those 5M of nice resources for 2-3M. And I'll be very happy about it.
An alternative workaround is to let armor pieces in a pack be stored that way up to 10 pieces without counting as additional items. Also to allow all items with the same serial number (crafted goods) to be so stored and not count as additional items toward the vendor limit. But anything else does count. This would eliminate the ability to use vendors as storage.
Sevardos
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:28 am
#18
Ok, after giving this some thought and in the spirit of coming to an amicable solution for both sides, here are my suggestions:
First, a few KEY ASSUMPTIONS:
(a) An item count = anything the vendor treats as one item. I.E.;I can continue selling buffpack sets by putting them into a backpack and the vendor treats it as ONE item
(b) Unlimited is not an option
(c) Being a Merchant means you have to have the skills
... (b) and(c),when put together, is where the logic escapes me. If Merchants are finally to be the vendor wranglers (as TH put it), then it doesn't make sense to have such a debilitating low cap. Master Merchants need to be able to handle and support the crafters in the economy if they truly want to be merchants.
Ok, here are my thoughts:
1. The minimum for Artisan vendor remains at 50 items. I don't find this to be an unreasonable number for the coke machine (see point #2).
2. However, move the requirement for the first vendor down to Novice Artisan. This provides a way for everyone to get a drop-off vendor or loot vendor by spending 15 points.
3. Increase the Vendor limit to 100 at Master Artisan. This provides additional room for vehicle sales, Power Ups.
4. The minimum per vendor must be 500 at Master Merchant (scaling up the Merchant tree accordingly). Personally, this would still force me to rethink my way of doing business but it's doable.
5. Achieving Master Merchants provides a 7th vendor. This provides an additional vendor to serve the crafting community as a Merchant while still maintaining the minimum.
6. All itemscan be sold from crates individually. For example, a customer can by 1 or 2 widgets from a crate of 50 widgets.
7. Increase all crate sizes to 50 - no matter the product.
8. Implement the Merchant tools like consignment as proposed by the community
Those are my thoughts. However, if I was told to only choose one compared to what is being offered now? ... it would be 500 minimum per vendor at Master Merchant.
Kamia-Kamiell
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:32 am
#19
I have been a merchant and tailor since game launch. One thing that has always attracted people to my shop is my excellent selection of merchandise. Both in variety or colors available.
I also run vendors for friends who do not have skill points to run their own vendor and again we are proud of our great selections.
If the proposed changes go into effect, my business will be greated hindered.
I will have to cut my merchandise to a small fraction it is now. I would have to either destroy a lot of clothing, use all my vendors for myself and still destroy merchandise and not sell for my partners, or open another account to run a second merchant for them. Also my time in making custom orders will have to increase because the selection just won't be there anymore on my vendor.
I propose to options:
More vendors to merchants instead of the 6vendor cap. perhaps instead 8 with 10 for a master.
Item limit of 500 per vendor regardless of skill. A person who had business 3 deserves to sale as many items as a master merchant. Some people like BE's, Doctors, or Resources Sellers often lack skillpoints to get novice merchant.
If this goes in effect it will increase our work to run a business successfully and enjoy the profession. I can see many people quitting the game, closing their shops, or losing a large amount of sales to make running a vendor not worth doing anymore.
EvilHomerSimpson
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:34 am
#20
This is not about limits but about Vendors in general. In order for Merchant to work as a wholesaler we need the Vendors to be able to pay x% of sale to Merchant and y% of sale to crafter. Vendors should also be able to be audited to see what sold for the week. And stocking multiple types of the same item on the same line like:
qty Itemdescription
-------------------------
10 Crate (25) Batteries
That way when I sells there will be:
qty Itemdescription
-------------------------
9 Crate (25) Batteries
And we wont be as tied to the vendor.
I would love for Merchant to work this way and just supply them with goods.
rexan
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:45 am
#21
First of all, I think the current (on TC) item limits need to have a 3 to 5 fold increase. Reason, as a Master Weaponsmith, I list anywhere from 300-500 items on my weaponsmith vendor. This is mostly ranged weapons and heavy weapons. As I tend to limit the amount of melee crafting I do. I have an additional vendor I use specifically for powerups. This is another 200-300 items. (powerups crates only stack to 10). With the new system, my Master Merchant skills will only be able to service one elite crafting profession, Master Weaponsmith.
So from my estimates, you need to be able to list about 500-800 items per elite crafting profession. Some maybe more, some maybe less.
Now Thunderheart stated that Merchant is intended to be the 'wrangler' of the crafting professions. The question then falls, how many is a merchant intended to 'wrangle'? If the answer is 3, then we need to see a 3 fold increase in the limits. If the answer if 6 (after all, we do get 6 vendors), then we need a 6 fold increase in the item limits.
So from my estimates, you need to be able to list about 500-800 items per elite crafting profession. Some maybe more, some maybe less.
Now Thunderheart stated that Merchant is intended to be the 'wrangler' of the crafting professions. The question then falls, how many is a merchant intended to 'wrangle'? If the answer is 3, then we need to see a 3 fold increase in the limits. If the answer if 6 (after all, we do get 6 vendors), then we need a 6 fold increase in the item limits.
Second, I think Master Merchant should get a much higher cap than manage 4.
BountyBlunter wrote:
Merchant Management 3 Get (5) Vendors, that will hold (90) items, for a total of (450) items for all vendors
Merchant Management 4 Get (6) Vendors, that will hold (100) items, for a total of (600) items for all vendors
Merchant Master Get (6) Vendors, that will hold (110) items, for a total of (660) items for all vendors
Its almost as if theDevelopers are givingaslap tothe face of Master Merchants. For 2sp investment from Manage 3 to Manage 4 you get an increase of +150 items. Its takes an additional 43 SP to get to Master Merchant for only a +60 items. Sure you dosome other nifty stuff, but random hair styles, planetary advertizment (still exploitable) and a 20% reduction in maintancewon't mean much to increased item limits.
I would hope the master box would mean more than this.
Lawel
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:45 am
#22
well sev...i like most of your ideas except one im at master artisan level and i thinks 50 is too small im a master ws as well should i get as much space as a nov. merchant no but 50 is to low80 would be nice also i think if we have these limitsput on usthen the 30 daything should be lifted and you make the call on taking things off your vendors... for the stock room it to should be untimed and should hold the same amont as your vendor then you could store crates of weapons to replenish the vendor,, after all a stock room is just that a room to store stocknot a 6day get it out of here thing or poof it dispears.......now i m wondering what happens to all the people loading up there vendors before the patch and lets say they have 2000 items on there and 30 days later there in the store room now you can only put one hundred on there which brings me to my point 6 days to find storage for say 1200 items good luck....the devs have real prob here that why i think the vendors amount and stock room should match and be untimed.....
lee980825
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:47 am
#23
For me, reducing vendor limits = more time running from vendor to vendor stocking.
More time running from vendor to vendor stocking = Less time interacting with people and role playing.
Less time interacting with people and role playing = Less fun.
Less fun = canceled account.
A vendor limit of less that 500 does seem silly for any tailor or architect that wants to keep a nice selection on their vendors and runs several shops on different planets, like a good merchant should. For any merchant that wants to keep a nice selection of goods they have purchased for sale across the galaxy, vendors need a pretty high limit.
I wonder if this is someone's idea to get players to buy more accounts, after all money makes the world go round.
I like the game, I like the player interaction, I like making and selling goods to players. I believe everyone is working hard to make the game more fun for everyone. I just think they are wrong on this one.
Counter proposals? Limiting vendor capacity should be accompanied by:
- a way for Merchants to remotely check inventory on any of their vendors on any planet
- a way to 'Ship' goods to any of their vendors that need restocking
I know I am dreaming, but automating these tasks would simplify keeping low vendor limits, keeping the vendors stocked, having time to PLAY with others and not spend all the time stocking.
Thank you for asking for my opinion.
Menoetius
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:59 am
#24
Novice Artisan 0030 (Business III) - 1 vendor 75 items max
Novice Artisan 0040 (Business IV) - 1 vendor 100 items max
Novice Artisan 0040 (Business IV) - 1 vendor 100 items max
Novice Merchant - 2 vendors 100 items max per vendor
Novice Merchant0001 - 3 vendors 125 items max per vendor
Novice Merchant 0002 - 3 vendors 150 items max per vendor
Novice Merchant 0003 - 4 vendors 150 items max per vendor
Novice Merchant 0004 - 5 vendors 150 items max per vendor
Plus these if the tree is completed
Novice Merchant 4000 - +50 items max per vendor
Novice Merchant 0400 - +50 items max per vendor
Novice Merchant 0040 - +50 items max per vendor
Master Merchant - + 100 items per vendor
Total at Master - 6 vendors 400 items per vendor max
Master Merchant needs to mean something other than just being called a Master Merchant. Plus you have to give a bonus to those players that choose to go up additional trees in Merchant as well.
I have rarely seen a vendor with +400 items on them. Most crafters like myself try to maintain a from 50-300 items per vendor.
If your wondering I have another account which is a Master Merchant. I currently have 4 vendors for my medical business. I found that having 300 plus items on a single vendor was confusing to the customer. I divided the product line accross 4 vendors for ease of the consumer.
Perhaps this approach by the developers is a step in the right direction butmaximum item total per vendor is extremely low. The developers approach of allowing 110 items maximum per vendor at Master Merchant really does not do justice to being a Master Merchant.
My view is 400 items maximum per vendor at Master Merchant. Where the Master Merchant has 6 vendors total to be used.
PhoenixOrion
Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:02 am
#25
shadowdefender wrote:
I suggest 250 - 300 per vendor and that includes business 3
Anything else is hurting crafters and merchants alike.
I agree.
Also on the buying-from-crates option: as far as smugglers go, and I feel pretty much EVERY other person on this server. I don't know ANYBODY who buys things on an individual bases, as crates are more convenient than having to lug around dozens of food.
You'd have to go to a vendor once every 2-3 hours depending on what you do. If you PVP that is.
So the Buy-From-Crates option just doesn't sit well with me.
Message Edited by PhoenixOrion on 08-10-2004 01:05 PM
Iannyen
Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:03 am
#26
I don't like it, I think vendors need to be accessible through other skill trees.
Merchant is like squad leader. It just doens't stand alone as a viable class.