Merchant Archive
Thread: Give me a single good reason why non-merchants SHOULD be able to use a vendor?
DocSavag wrote:
Hon the problem is I don't agree with your dire predcitions about the results of these changes. There will be changes, some of them not pleasnt, but I just don't buy some of the extremes. We'll see who is right about that. But frankly I can't mold the devs into your way of thinking..I can't even mold them into my way of thinking. What I can do is fight the battles tht I can fight to make things better. Beyond that I just adapt to the game and continue to have fun.
Well, contrary to popular belief - I really don't try to mold anyone. I try to present as clear and concise an argument as I can on varying aspects of a problem, pros and cons from all sides and hope that they speak for themself.
Continuing to have fun is exactly the problem. It's just not fun anymore, or won't be soon for many players. Every time a player is faced with this situation it gets just a little bit less fun. The average player doesn't sit down and analysis why - they just know it's not fun anymore, and there is zero dev involvement in trying to point out any brightsides and achieve any player 'buyin' whatsoever. You have the horrible position of being the one that has to face the music and take the brunt end of the abuse.
There is an old saying in retail - happy customers tell a friend, unhappy customers tell EVERYONE.
There is also a concept of critical mass in MMOs - especially with the setup they have and so many folks with muliple accounts. Multiple accounts are great for SOEs bottom line - as long as those folks are happy - if they aren't happy, well - it's not pretty. MMO players, especially ones that are into social/nurturing aspects have a cascade effect when they exit, and those folks have a cascade effect, and so on and so on and so on.
Proper management of change is at least as hard in a MMO environment as any programming changes that might come about. I'll guarantee - as many or more will quit over the WAY change is done - as the change itself - which is the crux of the out of order argument. Their actions have proven time and time again that they slap the quickest fix on an issue and move on - and never look back. THEY have trained the players, thru their own actions - or lack thereof - that is what they should expect.
For players to adapt - they have to see other equally viable and enjoyable options for themselves. If those options aren't available, or aren't created, or at the very least ACKNOWLEDGED- there ceases to be any reason for them to continue. Promises of future performance are only as good as the track record of backing them up.
I'm not usually one to subscribe to conspiracy theories, but someone put forward the idea a week or so ago, with the 110 limit - that SOE is trying to sabotage their own game. I just read that EA got the distribution and management rights to SWGin Japan, not Sony. Probably totally unrelated but it makes me wonder if there might not be a small grain of truth in there somewhere. Has some suit somewhere decided that the playerbase is ALREADY below profitable levels and wants to cut their losses?
BoberFett wrote:
Duckfat wrote:
Anyway I give valid examples of how the devs have implemented functionality in the past as a measuring stick for these non-merchant/artisan vendors and all the merchants that love to argue do is use arguements that are completely off base in attempt to legitimize their point of view or resort to arguements that are based on emotion and not facts.
What valid examples? The only examples I always see the whiners using are the "you can use a weapon without a cert" argument and a purely semantic argument that the skill says "Place" and not "Use". There's nothing factual about what you or anybody else has presented to defend poached vendors.
I just reposted some of it for you but if you want to see the original examples look for my post on page 2 of this thread. They are comparisons based on data that even you used. And for the record I have never asked for people to use poached vendors but that they be given a non-merchant/artisan vendor that is comparable to the use of other non-certed things.
Lets take Boberfett as my first example. Bober you do realize that when you say that all opinions are arseholes that it also includes your opinions as well. I guess you failed to realize that when you decided to state your opinion in an attempt to flame those that are argueing against you. In contrast I believe the complete opposite. I believe that people have a right to fight for their opinions. I just wish that more people would back their opinions with something of merit instead of just flaming other opinions.
You're quite right, my opinions are worth no more than anybody else here. However I'm not the one trying to act like I have a monopoly on the truth about video game economies like our boy Wire3k here. As far as he's concerned, everybody who disagrees with him is a "myopic fool". Unfortunately for him, the devs disagree with him as well.
You say you believe people should fight for their opinions. Then why do you wish everyone who disagrees with you would shut up? What are you afraid of? Quite hypocritical. You'll make an excellent politician.
Again make sure you are reading what I am posting and not trying to spin everything so you can refute it. I never stated that I wish you would shut up but that I wished you would give valid reasoning other than just flaming.
Speaking of backing your opinions lets look at Trystians arguements. If you read my post on page two of this thread giving two examples of why non-merchants should be able to use a vendor as asked by the thread starter, I stated two reasons and backed them with relevant data. Trystian on the other hand chooses to try to argue against it by offering a non-merchant/artisan vendor that holds 1 item for 2k for 1 hour. How is this in any way equivalent? Trystian himself stated that the difference between a certed user and a noncerted user could be around 1 shot for the certed user to 200 shots for the uncerted user. Well if you take that ratio to the non-merchant/artisan vendor that would equate to a 20 item vendor (based on the new cap of 4k) and not a 1 item vendor. And since the price cap and the duration of the sale do not change no matter what level of merchant you have it, it is obviously not skill based and should not be any different for a non-merchant/artisan vendor. You see how it is done with logical data and not just trying to make your arguement look better with unrealistic comparisons. Try it sometime when making your arguements. It usually works better. Then again there are those that could care less about logic and just like to exaggerate things to their benefit.
Your logic is wrong here. 4000 items is at master. At first certification, you get 100 items.
So as I proved earlier, it took me 3 minutes to kill a kreetle with a non-certed weapon compared to the 5 seconds it would take for a certed BH or Commando to kill a kreetle, that's a 36x increase from non-certed to basic cert.
A non-certed vendor should hold 5 items. If you wanted to give everybody a 5 item vendor for free in their declared residence, I'd support that.
Yes I am making comparisons at master. Even using your data lets say a master kills in 1 sec. That is still a 180:1 ratio which factored into the 4000 item cap come out to about 25 items (actually 22.2). There is a big jump in damage from uncerted to certed but the progression from there is slower. On the other hand there is a small jump in items from my proposed non-merchant/artisan vendor to business 3 but the progression from there is much faster. That is why the first cert level is not a valid measuring point because instead of arguing the ratio from there I could also argue that business 3 should get a much higher item cap and gradual increase instead. Therefore it is more logical to use the set cap at master since such comparisons do not have to take into account the varying rate of progression in each profession.
Edit: Corrected some faulty math.
Message Edited by BoberFett on 08-24-2004 10:11 PM
BoberFett wrote:
That's why I support removing the price cap from the bazaar and not giving vendors to non-merchants. The only thing holding back the bazaar is the price cap. 6K is nothing in our hyperinflated economies.
This would also move all auctions from the forums to where they should be: in game.
But dont you see that by giving out the 25 item non-merchant vendors you killthree bids with one stone? You give everyone a more useful bazaar with the same item limit but no price cap. You create more interaction between professions with the DE, merchant, and whoever wants a low limit vendor. And you do not have to create a new delivery system that people have already started to ask for and started proposing ways of implementing. The non-merchant vendor fixes all of that and should be a much easier fix for the devs.
BoberFett wrote:
Preach it sister Annie!
The problem is the extremism from non-merchants. They're not willing to work out a compromise. The only option they see is to eliminate Merchant as a profession and leave things exactly they way it is now, with everybody having unlimited items on up to six vendors. That's not going to happen, so non-merchants get labelled as wackos and written off. They're spending so much energy being obstinate, they're going to miss any chance at getting a workable solution.
I would also just like to point out that I have yet to say the world is ending because poached vendors are disappearing (which they really aren't -- they will still be there.). But I also don't think that giving a 50 item vendor to everyone is the end of the world. I never asked that non-merchants get all the benefits of merchant, so please do not lump everyone together.
And doc.. while we have had our differences in opinions, I think you can back me up when I say that my goal all along has been to improve the merchant profession.. And that all I have ever really argued against is the 'vendor poachers are the devil and the downfall of SWG!' mentality. It may be a problem, but I never considered it worthy of its own fix unless the overall issues that are hindering merchant are also addressed. Not just the vendor interface, but also other systems that allow a merchant to actively PLAY a merchant -- using tools and abilities and systems that are hardcoded in.
Wire3k wrote:
BoberFett wrote:
So what are you? A tailor? Tailors don't provide anything useful to the game. Clothes never wear out, and you can loot different ones. What good do tailors provide to the game?
I think we should just get rid of you. After all, you're just a sheep who'll play whatever crappy profession the devs give you.
If you really want to see what I do - visit my website, I'm also a bioengineer - and my customers and bankaccount would tend to disagree with your estimation of my worth.
It's a niche, one I've happily filled till lately. Freedom to chose among playstyles is one of the few things SWG did right - and although I think merchant as a class was a poor decision, it's worked till now only cause it DIDN'T work that way. Squeeze people out of options and goals - you squeeze them clean out of the game.
Message Edited by BoberFett on 08-24-2004 04:54 PM