Merchant Archive
Thread: Merchant Item Limits Focus Thread: Please try to be constructive and rational (Pt 2)
LadyGrey
Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:19 am
#118
DocSavage -
I have what I feel is a pertinent question to ask at this point: Is the lack of database space due to an inability to increase database space, or is it due to a lack of funds to increase the database space?
If it is due to a lack of funds, then I would suggest that a large portion of the crafting community might be amenable to the idea of being charged RL dollars, which could then be used to purchase more RL storage for the database, in exchange for having higher limits on their vendors and houses. Could call it a "value added" account. I do realize that some people have limited funds, but many crafters have multiple accounts already, and an extra fee could be a realistic way of dealing with this problem.
However, if the lack of database space is due to an inability to increase such space, then it would be good to know that.
If we are not given sufficient information, then how can we possibly make constructive remarks? All that has been said is that this must be done. You need to tell us WHY this must be done.
VarnaxDespin
Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:26 am
#119
1st I dont thik doc is the one to be asking, I dont think he knows excatly what the Dev's are thinking,yet heis trying to answer our questions as best he can.
LadyGrey wrote:
DocSavage -
I have what I feel is a pertinent question to ask at this point: Is the lack of database space due to an inability to increase database space, or is it due to a lack of funds to increase the database space?
If it is due to a lack of funds, then I would suggest that a large portion of the crafting community might be amenable to the idea of being charged RL dollars, which could then be used to purchase more RL storage for the database, in exchange for having higher limits on their vendors and houses. Could call it a "value added" account. I do realize that some people have limited funds, but many crafters have multiple accounts already, and an extra fee could be a realistic way of dealing with this problem.
However, if the lack of database space is due to an inability to increase such space, then it would be good to know that.
If we are not given sufficient information, then how can we possibly make constructive remarks? All that has been said is that this must be done. You need to tell us WHY this must be done.
Your spot on to ask your questions though, and that is why I am refusing to start throwing out made up numbers as to what is reasonable.
... Is the problem the data-base? If so there are a few thousand ideas posted in the last 2 days to help solve that.
...Is it the philosophical view that there are toofew crafters who "control" the market. If so there are a few thousand posts also with ideas to solve that and or discount that philosophy.
... Is it a combination of the above two?
... Is it something else?
We just dont know and that in itself makes this all the harder to accept. How can we honestly be ask/told to compromise when we dont even know why were being asked?
Message Edited by VarnaxDespin on 08-10-2004 12:26 PM
Reaperss
Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:26 am
#120
Well here is my take on what the Devs are trying to accomplish with this and the macro nerf. It seems the devs never expected players to be able to establish million dollar per day businesses. They never expected people like Abacus, Aircartman etc. They think these types of huge enterprises are bad for the game. Maybe, maybe not. This does seem like the perfect moment for them to make radical changes. With JTL around the corner there will be tens of thousands of new players coming in, so losing some crafters and merchants to this is no big deal and the new players won't know the difference. Same with buff bots and afk'rs, new players won't miss them becasue they've never seen them. The devs will have an economy a little closer to what the epected and more overal players. Remember they expect a certain turn over ratio and it seems they're ok with accelerating it a bit in the name of the game. They want smaller more specialized businesses and this will gt them there. Do I like it? Not really, but it won't make me quit. I do think Master Merchants need some love. Here is what I think we can end up getting:
Items per vendor
Novice Merchant 50
Management I 75
Management II 100
Management III 150
Management IV 200
Master 250
I really don't think none merchants should have any vendors.
JediTed225
Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:27 am
#121
This really sucks especialy since i don't have any kind of business set up and i have been trying to set one up for a while.
I think what would be a good comprimise is:
bussIII - +50 items
buss IV - +100 items
novice merchant - +200 items
effiency I-IV and managment I-IV - +100
master merchant - +100
That comes to a total of 1250 items per vendor. Seems reasonable to me.
SOE, PLEASE CONSIDERthis or one of the other suggestions in this thread before ya start loosing yer paying customers. 
Khristen
Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:29 am
#122
I have my theory on why the previous thread was locked/deleted, but as we've been asked to save the flames I'll keep it to myself....
My constructive feedback for the devs on this is:
1.Keep the fix of removing empty vendors from the planetary map and keep the removal of "illegal" and empty vendors. See how that goes. It's what merchants (and players) have been asking for and will help the overall morale of the community because it WAS something that we were asking for.
2. HOLD OFF on any kind of merchant item cap for the time being. There's already enough negativity and ill-will towards the devs because of the delay in the combat and GCW revamps. There's already enough people ready to leave the game. Give it a rest.
3. Let the community know very honestly and clearly why these caps need to come into place. If it's about the database, then why did the loot kits and their ton of new items get brought in? If it's about monopolies, perhaps it can be explained where this information is coming from? Anyone can make it in the crafting fields, but it takes time and effort. It's not a monopoly just because someone is really good in an area and someone else is not because they haven't spent the same amount of time and effort. Whatever the reason, the community needs to know exactly what it is so we can give GOOD suggestions instead of shots in the dark.
4. Have another focus thread and ACTUALLY RESPOND TO IT! Right now the issues are getting confused by "casual" readers. The main issue is the item caps, not the rest of the merchant changes currently on test center. Not everyone understands what standpoint some arguments are being made from. A lot of non-merchants think it's just the people who have "illegal" vendors that are upset about this and don't realize that it's the legitimate merchant crafters that are and what it really means to the economy if these changes go in.
I can accept the fact that they want item caps on vendors. I can adjust and adapt my business provided those caps are reasonable. I just fear that what they consider reasonable and what really is are so far apart that they will never meet. You can't give a master crafter hundreds of schematics that they can make and then tell them they are only allowed to sell 1/10 of them.
While I agree that there needs to be a reason people want to master merchant (and I stress WANT and not NEED), vendor caps is not the way to do that. The other trees need to be useful. The reason I am only a merchant 3-0-0-4 is because those are the only parts of merchant that are useful for me. I havea large shop to house my 6 legitimate vendors so merchant tents are not something that appeals to me. I carry a range of items because I have partnered with a few close RL friends who I trust and who trusts me with their goods. I want to be able to sell OUR goods. Not someone elses.
Forcing people to get master merchant in order to be able to sell a decent amount of goods is, as merchant stands now, a waste of skill points. There needs to be more than one reason to want to master something.
I could LIVE with a 500 item limit per vendor (although I'd really rather see that number be around 600). But it needs to be per vendor, not per vendor if you're a master merchant. You gain vendors as you go up the management tree, so let that be the way you gain the ability to sell more items. Give master merchant a +1 vendor, though, in order to give it a bit more of an incentive. Until they have the time to revamp the rest of the merchant lines, forcing people to master something that isn't working on the level that other classes that cost the same amount of skill points is only going to make people upset and angry.
So that's my constructive and rational feedback. If you want the irrational, just ask
EnigmaBSc
Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:34 am
#123
I think what I have been aiming towards is exactly the kind of crafter the DEVs don't want me to become - the crafter with everything in stock , all under one roof, cheaper that you would find anywhere else. Looking at some figures I was looking at an end-game situation of having upto 10 000 items in stock at one time. Looking at it I can understand that this could seriously affect novice crafters trying to enter my field. The question then become one of what number of items is the best compromise, bearing in mind the needs of the crafter, the customer and the competition.
The above figure of 10 000 items assumes an average stock of 10 of each of 1000 items. Obviously I would stock more than 10 of the faster selling items and less than 10 of the slowest selling items. With this level of stock I would expect to be able to service approximately 20% of the servers population (Infinity is a small server). Now I admit this number is pretty much plucked out of the air, but I'm considering such things as ability to restock, limitations of resource quantities and unwillingness of people to travel. So lets double that figure and assume that I could service 40% of the server. That means if I could stock 25000 items I could service the entire server.
So with a limit of 660 items per crafter we would require 38 people to service the entire server, assuming we split the goods evenly and did not overlap at all. This wouldn't happen of course, as everyone would want to stock the 10% of the items that were most profitable, so lets assume that we all stock the highly desirable items plus a few of the less profitable items and therefore it requires twice as many of us to service the entire server, although most of us will now only be selling half of our stock. That puts it at 76 people needed.
Now this figure assumes that all of the crafters have a full stock, but what about crafter turnover - established crafters retiring and new crafters beginning. This would leave us with many more crafters with fewer items stocked. Now the novices will be selling different goods to the masters, so there is more variety available now, but fewer goods in total. Lets guess that this would put us up to 100 people needed to service the entire server. 100 crafters needed, with all the masters having to either be Master Merchants or have a Master Merchant selling their goods for them to give them a full 660 item limit. There is absolutely no way that on Infinity there are currently 100 serious crafters who are in or want to be in my main crafting professions. Maybe 40 if you're lucky. Maybe. That means that each of those 40 crafters requires an item limit of at least 1650 items at Master Merchant.
Now I'll admit that there is an awful lot of room for error in the above calculations, but I tried to overestimate so that the resulting figure would be an absolute minimum. Please feel free to disagree with any of my figures and suggest more realistic values and we'll see what number that puts us at in the end.
Bottom line: 1650 items as an aggregate limit for Master Merchants, which would equate to 6 vendors with a limit of 275 items per vendor.
EnigmaBSc
The above figure of 10 000 items assumes an average stock of 10 of each of 1000 items. Obviously I would stock more than 10 of the faster selling items and less than 10 of the slowest selling items. With this level of stock I would expect to be able to service approximately 20% of the servers population (Infinity is a small server). Now I admit this number is pretty much plucked out of the air, but I'm considering such things as ability to restock, limitations of resource quantities and unwillingness of people to travel. So lets double that figure and assume that I could service 40% of the server. That means if I could stock 25000 items I could service the entire server.
So with a limit of 660 items per crafter we would require 38 people to service the entire server, assuming we split the goods evenly and did not overlap at all. This wouldn't happen of course, as everyone would want to stock the 10% of the items that were most profitable, so lets assume that we all stock the highly desirable items plus a few of the less profitable items and therefore it requires twice as many of us to service the entire server, although most of us will now only be selling half of our stock. That puts it at 76 people needed.
Now this figure assumes that all of the crafters have a full stock, but what about crafter turnover - established crafters retiring and new crafters beginning. This would leave us with many more crafters with fewer items stocked. Now the novices will be selling different goods to the masters, so there is more variety available now, but fewer goods in total. Lets guess that this would put us up to 100 people needed to service the entire server. 100 crafters needed, with all the masters having to either be Master Merchants or have a Master Merchant selling their goods for them to give them a full 660 item limit. There is absolutely no way that on Infinity there are currently 100 serious crafters who are in or want to be in my main crafting professions. Maybe 40 if you're lucky. Maybe. That means that each of those 40 crafters requires an item limit of at least 1650 items at Master Merchant.
Now I'll admit that there is an awful lot of room for error in the above calculations, but I tried to overestimate so that the resulting figure would be an absolute minimum. Please feel free to disagree with any of my figures and suggest more realistic values and we'll see what number that puts us at in the end.
Bottom line: 1650 items as an aggregate limit for Master Merchants, which would equate to 6 vendors with a limit of 275 items per vendor.
EnigmaBSc
Tanooshman
Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:38 am
#124
If every one suffers the same limits, I can live with it. So there, it's said.
But.
I can't imagine what is triggering this change. Last I heard there were 1 million SWG players - spread over 25 or so Galaxies. Even assuming 100k players per server, with 10k items EACH - that's only 1gig items in the database. I'm unaware of any modern Commercial grade Db for which that is a daunting number. If you had to allocate 10k of storage FOR EACH ITEM, that's still only 10 terabytes. I'd be impressed if we were talking about my brother's home setup - but for a SONY game of this stature I fail to see any major challenges before 100 times the number of players.
If it's a gameplay issue, there's some room for argument. An artisan with Level 3 business skillprobably doesn't need, and maybe shouldn't have unlimited vendor storage capacity. But a Master Merchant? I can't fathom the reason for a limit on Master Mechants - therefore I can't elucidate an alternative.
But it's clear if all BUT Master Merchant had limits, the DB issue would evaporate, regardless of the limits.
I have to comment that SOE has not demonstrated an award-winning capacity for seeing the consequences of its changes (to date). Just as the Holocrons had an unintended consequence.
The simple FACT: The players WILL HAVE THEIR STUFF!!!! If you take away this avenue - there will be a backlash. It may very well be less convenient!
DocSavag
Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:39 am
#125
LadyGrey wrote:DocSavage -I have what I feel is a pertinent question to ask at this point: Is the lack of database space due to an inability to increase database space, or is it due to a lack of funds to increase the database space?If it is due to a lack of funds, then I would suggest that a large portion of the crafting community might be amenable to the idea of being charged RL dollars, which could then be used to purchase more RL storage for the database, in exchange for having higher limits on their vendors and houses. Could call it a "value added" account. I do realize that some people have limited funds, but many crafters have multiple accounts already, and an extra fee could be a realistic way of dealing with this problem.However, if the lack of database space is due to an inability to increase such space, then it would be good to know that.If we are not given sufficient information, then how can we possibly make constructive remarks? All that has been said is that this must be done. You need to tell us WHY this must be done.
I have no idea but from my experience in the IT industry it is a bad habit to throw hardware at a problem unless that is the only way to fix it. You can't keep pace by doing that. The best ways always involved changing the way you handle the data. I don't have a clue what the realities are about this data model but I can sympathize with the challenges you face trying to manage massive amounts of data.
MrElmar
Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:42 am
#126
>> You need to tell us WHY this must be done.
as a developer myself (not at soe so spare me the flames) comments like this crack me up ... get over yourselves ... you don't own any part of this game or have any rights owed to you. the only right you are i have is when you or i choose to log in and play it (assuming the bill to play is paid).
as a developer myself (not at soe so spare me the flames) comments like this crack me up ... get over yourselves ... you don't own any part of this game or have any rights owed to you. the only right you are i have is when you or i choose to log in and play it (assuming the bill to play is paid).
wokdam
Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:49 am
#127
Ok this is super constructuve plz read!!
There are 20 levels to merchant...starting from business 3 to master.
Depending on how many you've completed... say 10/20 levels you get 50% of the max items per vendor or the aggregate of 6000 total items.
So if you were only business 3 with 1 vendor you get 50 items on your vendor. This is so because you would have completed 1/20 levels and thus have only completed 5 percent of the required levels. 5 percent of 1000 is 50.
Lets say you climb up management 4 all the way. You've completed business 3, 4 , novice merchant and 4 more levels...making it a total of 7 levels completed. 7/20 is 35%.
35% of 1000 is 350 items per vendor or 35% of an aggregate of 6000 if you had 6 vendors is 2100 items total per 6 vendors.
Master merchant: 1000 items per vendor, or 6000 total items spread over 6 vendors.
The other part of this equation is that no merchant skills = no vendors...only makes sense there.
So to sum up the math.
20 levels to complete for master starting at business 3.
1/20 = 5% of the 1000 possible items per vendor = 50 items
10/20 = 50% of the 1000 possible items per vendor = 500 items per vendor.
15/20 = 75% of the 1000 possible items per vendor = 750 items per vendor.
20/20 = 100% of the 1000 possible items per vendor = 1000 items per vendor = master merchant.
The aggregate works the same.
6 vendors = a possible of 6000 total items.
must ofcourse have management 4 so you'd have 7/20 levels done = 35%
35% of 6000 = 2100 aggregate items.
10/20 levels completed = 50% aggregate possible so 3000 possible items if 6 vendors exist.
Please evaluate this carefully and support it or refute it, I believe it address concerns on both sides of the plate here. We don't have unlimited, we must level up to get rewards, and skilless vendors will be non existant.
VarnaxDespin
Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:53 am
#128
EnigmaBSc wrote:
I think what I have been aiming towards is exactly the kind of crafter the DEVs don't want me to become - the crafter with everything in stock , all under one roof, cheaper that you would find anywhere else. Looking at some figures I was looking at an end-game situation of having upto 10 000 items in stock at one time. Looking at it I can understand that this could seriously affect novice crafters trying to enter my field. The question then become one of what number of items is the best compromise, bearing in mind the needs of the crafter, the customer and the competition.
The above figure of 10 000 items assumes an average stock of 10 of each of 1000 items. Obviously I would stock more than 10 of the faster selling items and less than 10 of the slowest selling items. With this level of stock I would expect to be able to service approximately 20% of the servers population (Infinity is a small server). Now I admit this number is pretty much plucked out of the air, but I'm considering such things as ability to restock, limitations of resource quantities and unwillingness of people to travel. So lets double that figure and assume that I could service 40% of the server. That means if I could stock 25000 items I could service the entire server.
EnigmaBSc
Nice post,
Some points, that is assuming you stay at your current level of business and dont get burned out or decide to try something else or someone else doesnt try the same thing and succeed.
Now from my exp with AS on Valcyn,
Some time mid last year (aug/sept) there were only 3 real master Armorsmiths on the server of note (today there must be at least 20) One of the initial 3 "somehow" got ahold of the other 2 "big" smiths accounts so as to try and monopolize the AS market. But 1 person only has so many hours to craft in a day...1 person can only do so much work in this game, even though they might wish to do more.
On with the story, an up and coming smith (not me) decided they wanted to break the "monopoly" and plopped a house down right nxt to the big guy, sold atslightly lowerprices and stole some of the business... theup and comerinfact eventually over took the 1st smith in sales and popularity, it just took some time. Meanwhile other smiths started popping up all over the galaxy competing against the other 2 "giants"taking a larger and larger market share away ( I was one of those other smiths that popped up). All this was done within the current confinds of the game and continues to this day as people grow and adjust to the game.
Now there will always be a current "top dog" for any prof... regardless if they sell 1 item or 10k items a day. And there is a system in place, that if a person wishes to challange that "top dog" they can... and they can succeed if they put in the effort and run thing in the right manner. Chaging the system to make it easier for the the "top dog" to be knocked down a notch does not improve the game and limits this form of player made content. Which for many crafters is important...
Ainwyn
Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:55 am
#129
My proposed limits:
Business 3: 75 and 1 vendor
Business 4: 100 no additional vendor
Novice: 150 each and 2 vendors
Management 1: 175 each and 3 vendors
Management 2: 200 each and 4 vendors
Management 3: 225 each and 5 vendors
Management 4: 250 each and 6 vendors
Efficiency 1: +10 each
Efficiency 2: +20 each
Efficiency 3: +30 each
Efficiency 4: +40 each
master: 450 each and 7 vendors
BONUS: Mastery of a basic profession +25 items each vendor. Mastery of an elite other than merchant +50 (-any- basic or elite profession, not just crafting ones). Bonus given only for one mastery.
So, the absolute maximum amount in this proposal would be 500 each (450 + 50 elite mastery bonus) on 7 vendors for a total maximum of 3500 items or drop the extra vendor and it would be 3000 total across 6 vendors. Master Artisan would have 125 items on 1 vendor (because of the mastery bonus).
Giving a bonus to mastery of any profession rewards mastery vs dabbling even in this indirect way. It also gives a high reward for mastering Merchant.
Business 3: 75 and 1 vendor
Business 4: 100 no additional vendor
Novice: 150 each and 2 vendors
Management 1: 175 each and 3 vendors
Management 2: 200 each and 4 vendors
Management 3: 225 each and 5 vendors
Management 4: 250 each and 6 vendors
Efficiency 1: +10 each
Efficiency 2: +20 each
Efficiency 3: +30 each
Efficiency 4: +40 each
master: 450 each and 7 vendors
BONUS: Mastery of a basic profession +25 items each vendor. Mastery of an elite other than merchant +50 (-any- basic or elite profession, not just crafting ones). Bonus given only for one mastery.
So, the absolute maximum amount in this proposal would be 500 each (450 + 50 elite mastery bonus) on 7 vendors for a total maximum of 3500 items or drop the extra vendor and it would be 3000 total across 6 vendors. Master Artisan would have 125 items on 1 vendor (because of the mastery bonus).
Giving a bonus to mastery of any profession rewards mastery vs dabbling even in this indirect way. It also gives a high reward for mastering Merchant.
Raistlin-TM
Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:47 am
#130
It would be a very large error, if we do not consider the other occupations during the solution identification.
Particularly the not Artisan occupations such as Doc or BE become then impracticable.
1. +25 Items per Artisan-Skill
2. +50 Items perMerchant-Skill
3. +25 Items for each skill,
which permits to build a new item.
4. +1 Vendor for each Master
(BE, Doc, CM, AS, WS, Chef, Tailor ..)
one is safe:
If we forget the Doc's & Co.,
we will lose them.