Merchant Archive
Thread: Let's Not Mince Words
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Khaldun
Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:05 pm
#1
If you just want the changes to vendors completely eliminated, and no real meaningful advantage to belong to Merchants, then...
just say it, you don't want Merchants in the game at all.
The vendor limits as proposed are too low. I agree with that. I think the way to fix that is to exponentially increase the limits as you climb the Merchant profession. That's neither here nor there.
I just see some people acting like this is very simple, something which should be rolled back, because it's ONLY about the database. Yes, ok, the database (as always) is doubtlessly involved. Yes, as always, it's the Live Team ineptly making a major change to the game, without warning, planning or consultation. All these things are conceded.
Look past them for a moment. You probably haven't thought much about people stupid enough to keep points in Merchant, but there are a few. Should they get something comparable to...say, complete domination of the weaponsmaking economy, the way a Master Weaponsmith does? The key schematics that a Master Architect does? The key abilities that a Master TK does? Or even the good things that someone halfway up the Pistoleer trees gets?
If it's not effective restriction of well-stocked stores to people who've paid for Merchant skills, then what is it? Should we get the ability to give away Happy Meals? Get flashing neon lights for our stores? Get the chance to have vendors who aren't old, fat and possessing weird skin diseases? What would be comparable to what other professions get that the rest of you wouldn't scream about *not* getting?
As far as I can see, many of the crafters posting here don't think that the ability to run a well-stocked store should have anything to do with spending the points on Merchant. So don't mess around, and don't bandy words. Just say you want the profession eliminated. Some people are being clear enough to recognize that's what they're asking for.
Zorkk
Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:18 pm
#2
There, I think you are mistaken.
I have 1 account. I want to fight AND craft. I've taken master artisan,a nd master droid engineer, i still have pistols IV, and ranged support IV. I also have merchant vendor II so i can have the vendors up to sell items. It never even entered into my mind that if you dropped those merchant skills you would still have the vendor... you shouldn't.. fix that, and they'll fix a lot of problems I think.
I want to be able to put at least 1000 items on my vendor right now, if i were to get a master merchant, that I do not think it unreasonable to expect that I would get 10,000 items or more on a vendor. if they want merchants to be resellers, a cap of 110 is NOT going to do it.
I think they should start by ONLY removingl the vendors in the game that are owned by characters without the merchant class. And make that change stick. Let the game run for another month or two, and see what effect this has had, see if any changes are still needed. BABY steps...
Lugal
Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:21 pm
#3
Maybe a more logical step would be to remove the skill point requirement for merchant but raise the xp needed to advance through and close holes to where nobody can grind out merchant in 2 days. Same thing for Politition(sp). Excepet no need to raise to the xp needed for it.
Khaldun
Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:25 pm
#4
That's fine, Zorkk. I think you should be able to have 1000 items on your vendor.
That's what makes sense to me--much higher limits, with the limits rising *exponentially* up the Merchant trees. So you should be able to list a full selection of merchandise at Merchant II or what have you, but if you really want to run a mega-mart, you should have to go all the way to the top.
Voroshilov
Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:26 pm
#5
"Just say you want the profession eliminated."
I won't say it as bluntly, but I will say this: Does a combat profession require some sort of "mercenary" class in order to gain salvage/loot rights on a corpse? Do they need before they can get higher level missions in order to make money? No? They why require crafters to be merchants? I'm all for deleting empty vendors and killing off any vendors beyond the current skill limit(no dropping skills and keeping free vendors). I'm with Zorkk, I don't want to be some decrepit person who can only craft and has to pay for a full set of buffs and wear composite armor just because I can't kill a bocatt or a greater womp rat when I'm trying to empty my harvesters.
I won't say it as bluntly, but I will say this: Does a combat profession require some sort of "mercenary" class in order to gain salvage/loot rights on a corpse? Do they need before they can get higher level missions in order to make money? No? They why require crafters to be merchants? I'm all for deleting empty vendors and killing off any vendors beyond the current skill limit(no dropping skills and keeping free vendors). I'm with Zorkk, I don't want to be some decrepit person who can only craft and has to pay for a full set of buffs and wear composite armor just because I can't kill a bocatt or a greater womp rat when I'm trying to empty my harvesters.
Saibak
Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:34 pm
#6
The problem with Merchants not being a stand-alone class stems not from the Player Base (though many have exacerbated it). The problem stems from the Merchant/Vendor interface being a virtual carbon-copy of the Galactic Bazaar. This severely limits Merchants to what they can do with the system, and the result is a Artisan/Merchant relationship that is so intertwined a Player can not possess one class without the other unless they use a knownexploit. Being a Weaponsmith without a Vendor serves no purpose, just as being a Merchant without being able to craft your own items to sell serves no purpose. Imposing item restrictions will do nothing to fix this problem, only address a make-shift workaround.
It would be wiser for the Devs to completely overhaul the Player Vendor system to focus on consignment sales, an idea that has been kicked around on this forum probably since launch. As it stands a Merchant Player and an Artisan Player can't form any kind of supplier/vendor relationship because the system has no built-in functionality for such actions, making it both incredibly tedious and entirely dependent upon the trust between the Merchant and his/her suppliers. What SHOULD be implemented is an interface that allows for such a relationship to exist, and in a much easier fashion. A Merchant should be able to set up a vendor, provide access to an Artisan, and whatever is sold the profit is split between the two by the system. Then it would be worthwhile for artisans to focus on their crafting, and Merchants to focus on maintaining their shops.
Ricani
Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:05 pm
#7
how about a merchants bazaar, where all people could offer items (and bartering of prices could take place via a price modification and reply to the offer) but only merchants could buy from... this would allow crafters to sell there wares in bulk to the merchants who could then sell them on via their vendors, looters could offer their loot to merchants who take an interest in loot resale, the offers though, would be global, and a merchant need simply browse and accept the price, leave it, or attempt to barter for it.
Bachreus
Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:03 pm
#8
I am with you Khaldun.The limit may be low but that isnt the real issue. The issue is that people have been abusing the borked merchant system for a year and its all about to end so F- Them. I wouldnt call this a Nerf at all, Its basically the fix That all master merchants have been asking for all along. I can live with the item cap; I cant live with the Ex-Merchant who now is aMaster Rifleman\Master TKA with 6 vendors jammed with every peice of crap they ever came across. And for all of the Master Crafters out there doing the same thing (Running a shop with no merchant skills) I have no pitty for you. You have been exploiting the system too. If you want to run a shop that's like super Wal-Mart than pay for the ability to do it. Having 1 vendor with 40k of items is bull**edit**.The three vendor fixes are great news.
Khristen
Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:17 pm
#9
The problem that has caused such an uproar here is not the fact that people with "illegal" vendors won't get to keep their vendors without the skill point cost. Merchants have ASKED for this many times. What the problem is, is that merchants have NOT ASKED and DON'T WANT the item cap limit. It will kill so many legitimate merchants businesses when there is really no need to take such a drastic action.
Merchants have ASKED for the "illegal" vendors to be removed and for empty vendors not to show on the planetary map and for abandoned vendors to be deleted. These additions to Publish 10 are a great thing. Yes, there will be the cry-babies of "I can't have my vendors without spending skill points" over that. That kind of thing should never have existed in the first place, though, and it really is a matter of pick up the skills if you really care that much about it.
But Karnn nailed the issue on the head with "It would be wiser for the Devs to completely overhaul the Player Vendor system to focus on consignment sales." This would definitely be the wiser thing rather than throwing this ridiculous cap in that no one wants in a poor attempt to give a reason to spend the skill points on merchant. The hard fact of the matter is that right now there isn't much benefit from most of the merchant skill boxes to warrent that kind of skill point investment. I'm all for having to have the management tree to have extra vendors, but why should I have to have hiring for the ability to place different kinds of vendors when my vendors are in place and not moving just to have a few extra items to sell? I agree that this is a serious design flaw for the merchant class, but vendor item caps is not going to suddenly make the profession worthwhile. There's no time for the devs to do this right so instead they're going to nerf the profession and the economy in a pathetic attempt to make it look like they're fixing a broken profession.
Merchant skills, such as they are, basically work as they are supposed to. The only thing that really needs to be fixed in that regard is that people currently retain those abilities after dropping the skills. But until they can give the merchant profession the attention it deserves, it would be better to fix the things those playing the class are asking to have fixed rather than trying to force something they don't want.
Bachreus
Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:27 pm
#10
If you dont have an item cap people will get one vendor from the artisan tree and throw 15 million items on it, so what would be the need to go up the merchant tree. I like the new idea of the cap. The only thing that needs to be addressed with the change is what will the cap be? Just something to think about.
Numen
Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:40 pm
#11
Bachreus wrote:
I am with you Khaldun.The limit may be low but that isnt the real issue. The issue is that people have been abusing the borked merchant system for a year and its all about to end so F- Them. I wouldnt call this a Nerf at all, Its basically the fix That all master merchants have been asking for all along. I can live with the item cap; I cant live with the Ex-Merchant who now is aMaster Rifleman\Master TKA with 6 vendors jammed with every peice of crap they ever came across. And for all of the Master Crafters out there doing the same thing (Running a shop with no merchant skills) I have no pitty for you. You have been exploiting the system too. If you want to run a shop that's like super Wal-Mart than pay for the ability to do it. Having 1 vendor with 40k of items is bull**edit**.The three vendor fixes are great news.
Even if you don't think the limit is the biggest issue, I truly think it will mean the end of a lot of crafting if it is kept that low.
I am one of those merchants that you have no pity for. I can't say I expected any from anyone. I am in great disagreement over the overall use of merchant but that doesn't matter here. It is whatever the devs want to do or can do. I would have gotten the relevant merchant skills I needed. I will not get them if these are the current limits though. Before it was a waste of skill points because you didn't need the skills. Now it will be a waste of skill points because the skills will become next to worthless(obviously only my opinion). In the end though nothing changed except I will be done with crafting.
I would guess a vaste majority are for the fixes to make sure you have the merchant skills. Also the removeal of empty vendors.
I know though that a vaste majority are completely against the currently limits.
Everyone else seems to think the limits are the real issue.
Cinderr
Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:48 pm
#12
Khaldun wrote:
You probably haven't thought much about people stupid enough to keep points in Merchant, but there are a few.
Pardon me?
Khaldun
Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:01 pm
#13
I agree with the excellent observations on the vendor design and its relationship to the Bazaar. The interface for both is frankly horrible and always has been, and it is a bottleneck in more ways than one, and a major reason for the cited dependencies between crafters and merchants, where it makes no sense to be a crafter without a vendor, and no sense to be a merchant without being a crafter.
This is why I say, in all seriousness, as someone who has a merchant character and had a vision of how the profession might work, that it is not at all a problem for me to advocate the elimination of the merchant profession. I think the reasons it doesn't work are deep and profound and require a fix so substantial that I don't envision this group of devs *ever* doing it, since they can't seem to handle much more minor challenges.
I'm just saying that at this point in time, if you want to have no limits or very, very high limits on vendor inventories even for characters with just Business 3, you might as well eliminate Merchants altogether--unless you have an alternative plan for making them distinctively relevant.
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