Medic Archive
Thread: Scouts can still harvest...
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LittleStewie
Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:30 am
#1
Every novice profession has a hint at all the Elite professions can do. A scout can harvest, trap, make camps, but not as good as a ranger. a marksman can headshot, body shot, legshot, but not as good as rifleman etc can.. entertainers can heal BF, wounds, fix hair, like the elites can, only less so. this applies for nearly every profession except for hybrid elites.. (no novice can bounty hunt, commando, BE or SL, as far as i know. might be others.) which is cool. there needs to be stuff elites can do that novices cant.
But at the same time... why cant medics healpoisons or diseases? or fire for that matter. seems a fire blanket would be pretty easy to use. any 12 year old boy scout worth his salt could help a person on fire. Heck, i knew cpr when i was a 12 year old boy scout. a fire blanket was cub scout stuff. when i was in the navy, 19 year old corpsmen gave me anthrax vaccinations. without a doc present. most likely could of done it myself if they woulda let me. (i was issued, like all others in their CBR kits, atropine injections to counteract nerve gases, to be self administered if symptoms are present)
Its pretty simple really.. allow medics to cure disease.. but make the disease cure take a minute. with the target standing still, next to a droid or in a hospital. same for diseases or fire. will it help in pvp? No. Well, a bit. but it definately wouldnt be handy in those situations. For pvp or in battle situations, you would still greatly, GREATLY prefer a doc with their insta cures. but if you are in a 3 person hunting group on endor, and one of you got diseased, that 1 minute heal would be pretty nice.
If you prefer, even make the cure only craftable by docs. i dont mind. even as a master medic i still buy all my heal packs andwound packsfrom a master doctor. also, these absolutely should NOT be novice medic abilities. maybe 1 or 2 at tier 4 boxes, and the remainder at master. (actually a medic fire heal could be complimented by a /StopDropRoll command that anybody could use. same limitations... you go prone, and add an animation of you rolling around on the ground 
after a minute or so you stand up with lots of wounds, and no more fire. not thatimbalancing IMO since everyone gets a put out fire tool now, which is running into standing water)
after a minute or so you stand up with lots of wounds, and no more fire. not thatimbalancing IMO since everyone gets a put out fire tool now, which is running into standing water)also, i wouldn't terribly mind seeing minor buffs that medics can make and put on people. as well as poisons of the same calibre. stuff from between 10-50% or so what any reasonably competent doc or CM can make. but cm could still apply at range.. medic couldnt. and buffs would take the 25 seconds that medics need in between wound heals. (note that these are well down on my wish list, but still would be nice)
as a final note.. if all of you scoff at these ideas, which is fine, how about this. i am a master medic. why do i buy supplies from doctors? if you dont want to give medics doctor abilities, please change the experimentation of medical supplies. you have to be a master doc to make the best stim a/b/c, WHICH ARE MEDIC HEALING TOOLS! heck with that. make all the stims and such medics can make medic experimentation, and all the stuff docs can make, doctor experimention. would it be fair if you needed master WS/AS/DE/ or Arch to make artisan stuff with all of your exp points? doctors would lose nothing. medics would gain a bit.. i.e... actually be able to make stuff that people would buy. ( even getting 80-90% medic exp at master medic would be nice.. with an additional 10-20% at master doc.)
I'd just like to be able to make my own stims that can compete with the ones i buy from my guild doc. not that she overcharges me, but i'd like that option.
Areason tobe a master medicin a galaxy dominated by novice medics,stim b's, and buffs would be a welcome change
MasterNerfSlayer
Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:52 pm
#2
I realise everyone wants this, and I will bring it up with the devs. Expect a big fat no though, so that you wont be disappointed.
I prefer to keep doc and combat medic unique though, and keep in mind that doc buffs will get reduced significantly in the Combat Balance. Also, to compare with other professions, most artisan food buffs are in the 50-100 point range, and also note than an entertainer cannot buff at all.
I'm also trying to have Stim B mininum medical usage lifted back up to 20 where it was in beta, as it is very over powered for a novice heal.
LittleStewie
Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:30 am
#3
I probably shouldnt have even mentioned the buffs and poison idea.. but it was late and i was kindadrunk 
. Those are just a couple things i think would be neat, possibly add a little flavor to the profession,but keeping class distinctions is important as well.
. Those are just a couple things i think would be neat, possibly add a little flavor to the profession,but keeping class distinctions is important as well. Also, if they dont go for the poison/disease cures in medic, perhaps they could add it to novice doc? that might be more palatable for the devs. That or possibly just a way to reduce the damage done by half, call it a vaccine or whatever. lasts for a couple minutes and reduces the effects by half as long as you arent in combat. anyway, thanks for trying.
MasterNerfSlayer
Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:01 am
#4
A couple of things are being discussed at the moment, but that's about all I can say really.
jfang
Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:33 am
#5
By the same token though, brawlers can't meditate like TKs can, marksmen can't light you on fire like Commandos can, scouts can't give the party terrain negotiation like squad leaders can,medic's can't craft even the weakest pets like BE's can, etc. There are a plethora of elite level abilities that are not reflected in the novice level abilities. Expecting medics to be able to cure fire and poisons or even buff and poisonmay or may not be reasonable, but the argument that because a doctor can a medic should be able to in a minor degree is not really plausible.
There are many other arguments as to why medics should not be able to cure poisons and buff (some I agree with, some I do not), but it's a little outside the scope of this post.
As for the issue with having limited experimentation points, I don't see what the problem is with that. For example, a entertainer doesn't have a "full skill set", in that they can't heal mind wounds as fast as a dancer. Same basic skills, just the elite class is better at it. By extension, a medic is like a doctor when crafting. They have the same basic skills, only the doctor is better at it.
I see no reason why you should expect for a medic to be able to get a full set of experimentation points at what they craft (although it would help me as well), unless you want to separate the items made from medic from doctor level items entirely. (For example, make stim E's a master medic item, and make all wound pack B's and above take different subcomponents, and be doctor craftable only.)
MasterNerfSlayer
Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:47 pm
#6
I don't see why medics should not get 100% experimentation at all. In fact I believe we should.Everything we can do, a doctor can do better, and thus override our potential to make any money at all. It seems like the system was just thrown together. All doctor items should be doctor experimentation. Combat medics get their own experimentation and assembly. Something I'm going to bring to the devs attention very shortly.
After a short discussion with Traigus, I have learnt that it was due to the schematic revocation system that we share the same experimentation system. Seeing that was removed, we really should have seperate exeperimentation systems, its simply the fact that medic is stable with few issues that nothing was ever done about it. There are other more broken professions to fix first.
jfang
Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:42 am
#7
MasterNerfSlayer wrote:
I don't see why medics should not get 100% experimentation at all. In fact I believe we should.Everything we can do, a doctor can do better, and thus override our potential to make any money at all. It seems like the system was just thrown together. All doctor items should be doctor experimentation. Combat medics get their own experimentation and assembly. Something I'm going to bring to the devs attention very shortly.
After a short discussion with Traigus, I have learnt that it was due to the schematic revocation system that we share the same experimentation system. Seeing that was removed, we really should have seperate exeperimentation systems, its simply the fact that medic is stable with few issues that nothing was ever done about it. There are other more broken professions to fix first.
That would be interesting, if novice doctors could no longer make stim B and wound B packs... I think we should push for that, although as a practical matter it would never get past the doctor "we need more money, we are poor *cough*" wall of resistance... 
(And yes, I'm being serious here.)
(And yes, I'm being serious here.)Like I said earlier, I see no reason why medics should have 100 experimentation, unless they have a separate set of items to make than doctor, be that from schematic revocation, doctors get wound packs and medics get stims, etc.
Of the crafters, doctors-medics are unique in that they are the only class where the novice is a proper subset of the master class. I am concerned that we might crowd out the purpose of doctor crafting if we are not careful, or impose the same kind perverse economy on them that combat medics face (the only things they can craft are only doctor usable, so no way for money to really enter the sub-economy).
I would say though, short of implementing skill revocation (technically difficult and very unpopular for all the doctors), and short of moving wound packs to doctor level and stims to medic level (horribly bad for starting medics), how would you propose to give medics 10 experimentation points but keep the 000x skill tree of doctors useful? I off hand don't see a way to, which is where my resistance comes from...
Incidentally, one thing I will point out is that you are comparing us to artisans. I personally draw many more parallels to entertainers. For example, entertainers are strictly inferior to musiciansand dancers or image designers depending on what you are doing, both initially had no missions (and still have no viable missions) and are dependent on tips to subsist, both have function specific structures needed to fully use their skills, etc. In this light it seems reasonable that medic crafting is gimped as compared to doctor crafting (as I mentioned above), although this view might not be shared with the community as a whole.
Drakool
Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:53 pm
#8
WAIT A MINUTE!!!
did I see you say that you wanted to RAISE stim B to 20???? yes I did, what kind of boneheaded idea is that? personal obviously, as a lowlevel medic I can use (and make my own) stim B which saves my but alot. MY BUTT is not elite and doing missions and getting jumped in the wild is dangerous work. I have saved myself many times with stim B. you are suggesting that I should die do to lack of medical skils ?
If I use stim B on another player it does give me more xp versus Stim A but the healing is done quicker so the balance sheet stays square. also if I craft the heck out of stims and use them to heal myself I get NO xp for this accept the crafting. and as my hunting as a scout progresses my healing as a medic is stagnant. you want to increase medic rating , WHY ? there is no logical reason for this example: medic 1-1-1-4 scout 4-1-4-0 .
I have bought some very AWESOME stim B (also expensive) but I hope to craft my own super stims. and what is wrong with another player getting just enough medic skill to use his own purchased stim B? that is his choice of character skills it stil costs him 25 skill points just to use Stim B all your idea does is force him to use 32 skill points. leave that alone IMHO the stims should and are level 5 why screw with it?
jfang
Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:25 am
#9
The problem with stim B's as the are is that people can spend 15 SP and defacto make medics unnecessary. The issue isn't directly related to medics, it is that a 0000 novice medic is much stronger than it ought to be, with the advent of 400+ strength stim B's. This encourages solo play in a *MM*OPG, as well as lots of other "bad things" (depending on whom you talk to).
Not to mention there is currently no reason to ever use stim As (making them a broken schematic), and no reason to be a xx1x or xx2x medic, which is rather silly...
Making stim B's 20 med use is not exceptionally game or template breaking (30 minutes or less of grinding, and 2 or 5 more SP), and helpsaddress theseproblems.
Aladine
Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:51 pm
#10
LittleStewie wrote:
Every novice profession has a hint at all the Elite professions can do. A scout can harvest, trap, make camps, but not as good as a ranger. a marksman can headshot, body shot, legshot, but not as good as rifleman etc can.. entertainers can heal BF, wounds, fix hair, like the elites can, only less so. this applies for nearly every profession except for hybrid elites.. (no novice can bounty hunt, commando, BE or SL, as far as i know. might be others.) which is cool. there needs to be stuff elites can do that novices cant.
But at the same time... why cant medics healpoisons or diseases? or fire for that matter. seems a fire blanket would be pretty easy to use. any 12 year old boy scout worth his salt could help a person on fire. Heck, i knew cpr when i was a 12 year old boy scout. a fire blanket was cub scout stuff. when i was in the navy, 19 year old corpsmen gave me anthrax vaccinations. without a doc present. most likely could of done it myself if they woulda let me. (i was issued, like all others in their CBR kits, atropine injections to counteract nerve gases, to be self administered if symptoms are present)
Its pretty simple really.. allow medics to cure disease.. but make the disease cure take a minute. with the target standing still, next to a droid or in a hospital. same for diseases or fire. will it help in pvp? No. Well, a bit. but it definately wouldnt be handy in those situations. For pvp or in battle situations, you would still greatly, GREATLY prefer a doc with their insta cures. but if you are in a 3 person hunting group on endor, and one of you got diseased, that 1 minute heal would be pretty nice.
As much as I would love that to happen I know it wont...
If you prefer, even make the cure only craftable by docs. i dont mind. even as a master medic i still buy all my heal packs andwound packsfrom a master doctor. also, these absolutely should NOT be novice medic abilities. maybe 1 or 2 at tier 4 boxes, and the remainder at master. (actually a medic fire heal could be complimented by a /StopDropRoll command that anybody could use. same limitations... you go prone, and add an animation of you rolling around on the ground
Although I understand your desire for this, and your desire to make it more realistic, you have to take realism all the way.When you are set on firein RL by something like a flamethrower (or a waterballoon filled with gas for that matter) no matter how many times you stop drop and roll, you will NOT put that fire out because it is a highly flamable and volitale liquid, where the vapor is on fire. Hell,thereareoxygen rich propellantswhich will continue to burn underwater (like some jetfuel.)
Not to mention this would be another huge nerf to Commando, a profession that has been hit with the nerf bat so many times they are looking towards the combat rebalance through their one remaining eye while sitting in their wheelchair, eating their mush due to their lack of any bite (pun intended.)
also, i wouldn't terribly mind seeing minor buffs that medics can make and put on people. as well as poisons of the same calibre. stuff from between 10-50% or so what any reasonably competent doc or CM can make. but cm could still apply at range.. medic couldnt. and buffs would take the 25 seconds that medics need in between wound heals. (note that these are well down on my wish list, but still would be nice)
as a final note.. if all of you scoff at these ideas, which is fine, how about this. i am a master medic. why do i buy supplies from doctors? if you dont want to give medics doctor abilities, please change the experimentation of medical supplies. you have to be a master doc to make the best stim a/b/c, WHICH ARE MEDIC HEALING TOOLS! heck with that. make all the stims and such medics can make medic experimentation, and all the stuff docs can make, doctor experimention. would it be fair if you needed master WS/AS/DE/ or Arch to make artisan stuff with all of your exp points? doctors would lose nothing. medics would gain a bit.. i.e... actually be able to make stuff that people would buy. ( even getting 80-90% medic exp at master medic would be nice.. with an additional 10-20% at master doc.)
I'd just like to be able to make my own stims that can compete with the ones i buy from my guild doc. not that she overcharges me, but i'd like that option.
Areason tobe a master medicin a galaxy dominated by novice medics,stim b's, and buffs would be a welcome change
Pootle
Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:03 pm
#11
I have to say i totally disagree with the experimentation point bit, by doing this a lot of doctors that just want to be Doc for the crafting side would quit, lowering availability of decent stims, and because of this prices will rise. Ok maybe we will get crafting medics to take there place, but how long would it take for these new crafters to get the resources to be able to craft at the same level as the docs have been doing?
I know it took me ages to make stims I was proud to have my name on them.
Wotee
vortexala
Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:30 pm
#12
Pootle wrote:
I have to say i totally disagree with the experimentation point bit, by doing this a lot of doctors that just want to be Doc for the crafting side would quit, lowering availability of decent stims, and because of this prices will rise. Ok maybe we will get crafting medics to take there place, but how long would it take for these new crafters to get the resources to be able to craft at the same level as the docs have been doing?
I know it took me ages to make stims I was proud to have my name on them.
Wotee
Why would they quit? They'd still have the same number of experimentation points for those same stims, since you are required to take Master Medic in order to even become a Doctor. So they wouldn't quit due to the change in experimentation. They'd still have the same number of experimentation points for the medic items, they'd still have their resources and factories to make the same stims, they'd still have exactly what they currently do.
Pootle
Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:33 pm
#13
yeah but why, if you have 10 experimentation points at master medic, it kinda makes the doctor crafting tree useless and therefore a waste of skillpoints. That was more what I meant (was a bit tired last night)
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