Medic Archive
Thread: Mind Damage: How to make it healable without abuse
Niles2828 wrote:
As I said before (which I now must obviously repeat), the important thing about being a field medic is managing your mind pool points effectively. If you run out of mind points, you can heal your groupmates, which means you and your groupmates all die.
Let's say medics have the ability to heal mind damage, even in the spirit of using it to heal other's mind damage. They would still be able to heal their own mind damage. So here it goes:
Heal, Heal, Heal Heal..... uh oh, I'm out of mind points. I can't heal anymore....Mind Heal! Oh good! Now I can heal again! Heal Heal Heal Heal..... I'm out again. Mind heal! Yay! Endless healing!
See the problem? All it turns into is a contest of who has the most meds in their inventory. There is no challenge left. If you want a game with no challenge (I can't believe I'm saying this AGAIN), go play Candyland.
Oh, and by the way, for those of you who want to respond with "Well, what if the medics couldn't heal their own mind damage?"
What's to stop 2 medics from grouping together and healing each other's mind?
Mind wounds ?
I don't think you read my ideas. Seriously.
y'know what guys yer all right... why don't we just make mind buff packs too... and then we can make the 0 timer for heals and y'know what? lets take /tenddamage and make it so that we don't use meds, or take mind wounds, and make the min skill for rev. and /healenhance novice medic. let's also make stim es useable by anyone. buffs last for weeks, not hours and so on. Oh and also make it so that medics can instantly travle from the middle of nowhere, Talus to their house on Naboo... I definatly think that novice medics should be able to magically transport themselves thru the planetary masses and land wherever they want.
ok, satire aside.
If you walk to your car.
Drive down the street.
See a friend on your way.
Yell to your friend while hanging out the window.
Hit your head on a telephone pole.
Go to the ER.
Have brain damage.
**edit** is a doctor going to do?
"There is nothing we can do for this patient, he will lose most of his brains functionality and is reduced to the intelect of a 3 year old."
Now for some of you, obviously, dropping to the mind of a 3 year old wouldn't be much of a fall, some of you might be stepping up some. Entertainers healing mind in the field is reasonable. Medics healing mind is not. That's like expecting a mule to lay eggs. It should never happen. And if it does god was playing a joke on you. Drop the whole issue, complain about server instabilities or weaponsmiths prices, don't try to make us stronger then we already are. We are amoung the most balanced professions in the game, not a lot of perks for making the top, but still. It's rediculous, you can't even look at this board without seeing someone moaning about mind dmg. and for the guy who said i was asking everyone to shift everythign into mind... I did. I rarely die. I have mixed Pistoleer with Doctor and I am, without intending to be cocky, a badass. I take care of my group and myself without any trouble. If you want to heal mind then i want a 45second gap between anything. Something similar to this...
/healminddamage, no shooting, no healing, no running, no posture change (other then forced) and you take double damage the entire time.
You people are wasting your key-strokes on stupid ideas that would make us even more powerful. I've seen an MD kill a MCH, if you don't know your profession you need to learn it. Doctor is an ELITE profession, Medic is NOT. Mind healing is rediculous, for those that wish to prove me wrong, cut open your head and remove a piece of your brain, then go to the doc and say your head hurts and ask them to put the brain back together. Lemme know how it goes when you are no longer in a coma.
Todds523 wrote:
moshi is absolutely right
Todds523 If you are a woman please marry me. If you are a guy you are my best friend :-D
Yesah, Moshi. Dumb comparison. If you get shot int he heart, what the heck is a Doc going to do int he moern world eaither? Sounds like health hit to me, but you'd be long dead before any doc could think about transplantation. It's a game, not the real world. The corrolarry does not fit.
But again you don't address the fact that we already have a game emchanic for a infinite loop!
What abpout Docs buffing entertainer or Carbineeraction?
What about healing/buffing entertainer/caerbineeer action? or BH/Pistoleer Health?
Now those folks can go forever and ever and you aren't complaining that they are now overpowered. Why not?
So your in a car
You see your friend
You wave
Your brains fly
And what the hell will adoctor do?
...What they hell would an entertainer do?
It's a game so don't compare it to anything else. I don't really have a side to this argument but the problem is the only time i see mind drop is in PVP, and when this happens it doesn't last fast...**edit** that eyeshot. So medics really can't save anyone like that cause by the time they bust out there brain-fixer-upper-tool, their brains are splattered on the side walk...**edit** that eyeshot.
Spoodo Happy, Master Medic/Pistoleer/Male Stripper
See the Light. <Death> 4 Life.
k zarlor need to do spell check buddy...
and entertainer spamming flourishes for 23 hours straight does not bother me at all...
a carbineer that is buffed shooting for hours on end does not bother me at all...
people moaning about how to make the medic more powerful bothers me a lot...
we are a well balanced/managed class... don't fix things that aren't broken.
as for my analogy it was only to put things into perspective. There have been peopel shot through the heart and lived, there have been people with nails 8inches in their faces. There have been people shot numerous times in the face. some live, some die.If i get shot with eye shot 5 times, i'm not dead. if you are a medic and get taken out by 5 eye shots, you are a bad medic.
LOL 5 eyeshots and I'm a bad medic? Duel Hadgar Happy.
Spoodo Happy
Spoodo_Happy wrote:
LOL 5 eyeshots and I'm a bad medic? Duel Hadgar Happy.
Spoodo Happy
what server are you on?
Yeah, yeah. I post too much and type too fast for my own good. 
So you are saying it is fine for a medical professional to allow other professions to endlessly do the things they do, but that somehow allowing a medic to do that to another medic or to a riflemanis just wrong? Or at least makes medics somehow invincible.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I will add this, though. I do not expect that we should look at or expect that mind healing would be implimented in a vacuum. It is ludicrous, IMHO, to consider simply adding mind stimming with the same capabilities to a standard stim-pack, for example. There are obvious problems and exploits involved there and a massive balance hit to mind-damaging professions. As such I suspect we would need to consider multiple angles here. Such as making a seperate, lower-capability but made at higher levels and or with more resources, mind stim. It would be less effective than similar stims, only be available up to C-level, for example and not be usable on yourself. CMs could get ranged versions of these, but not AoE versions. Mind-damaging professions will need, in most cases, a damage boost to help compensate. Those kinds of issues would need consideration.
But the medic professions are the field healers. It started with us having that ability (and we still have it to a very small extent if you use one of those newbie Damage stims, only usable but someone with the /healdamge command, but I still don't see folks who run around with those as being the super elite over-powerful medic who owns all they survey, mind you). I think it is with us it should stay. (But, the truth be told I am fine with somebody else getting it instead, just as long as we see it implimented, really. 
) And I do not see it as at all unbalancing/mismanaging for us to have it.
Consider that you are bothered because you precieve people are moaning to make medics somehow more "powerful" when I see it as constructive criticism of the the problem with Mind Damage that make medics, in effect, completely useless in far too many sitiuations. We are seriously underpowered in this respect, I think.
Zarlor wrote:
So you are saying it is fine for a medical professional to allow other professions to endlessly do the things they do, but that somehow allowing a medic to do that to another medic or to a riflemanis just wrong? Or at least makes medics somehow invincible.
If an entertainers spams flourishes all night, how does that affect people? I think it is somewhat stupid that dancers make brain damage go away... however if they can do that in the cantina why can't they do that in the field? make a Ent/Doc worthwhile to play... A medic that can heal himself, or another medic of all 3 pools is rediculous. A friend of mine, -Antonio Skyjogger-, and myself went to the little imperial thing above bestine. The 2 of us (both MD) killed 6 PCs and 2-3 NPCs in each run simply by being buffed and healing eachother, we went out on mind all but one time (which we went in unbuffed to catch the TEF Tag game) if i could heal his mind, or him heal mine we would still be there. That would draw everyone to be whatever it took to heal mind. Dr. would be the new combat profession, you wouldn't leave home without him. 2 medics that can heal all 3 pools with any power whatsoever ARE invinceble to other players. ever fought someone compeltely buffed and on muon? imagine fighting someoen completely buffed, on muon, and having someoen healing their pools as you die. The only way to end something like that would be wounds...
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Can't win em all =)
a massive balance hit to mind-damaging professions.
Not necessarily, take body shot. in PvP a bodyshot2 with a 165 DX2 (Acid Dmg AP1) will hit anywhere from 35-85 I have yet to break tripple digits since the nerf. a double tap does more then a bodyshot2
But the medic professions are the field healers. It started with us having that ability (and we still have it to a very small extent if you use one of those newbie Damage stims, only usable but someone with the /healdamge command, but I still don't see folks who run around with those as being the super elite over-powerful medic who owns all they survey, mind you).
A newbie stim, yes definately high-quality manufacturing. give someone a 200 heal mind pack and then let em heal for 600 mind damage while only taking 50-80 (dep on focus) and see how well they own all that they see...
I am fine with somebody else getting it instead, just as long as we see it implimented, really.
Entertainers are the only option IMO it's their job but they can only do it at certain places...
Consider that you are bothered because you precieve people are moaning to make medics somehow more "powerful" when I see it as constructive criticism of the the problem with Mind Damage that make medics, in effect, completely useless in far too many sitiuations. We are seriously underpowered in this respect, I think.
I am greatly annoyed by the people in both the doctor prof. board and the medic prof. board by people 'moaning' (not to be confused with the much more offensive term 'whining') about mind healing. I will put up all the resistance to having this put in as I can. Tell me the person that can kill 2 MDs if they can heal mind. If we are gunna have mind heal then (as I stated before) Doctor will be the new combat profession. hit some muon, and hit some imps, low on mind? Tony's got ya... oooh he's only got 800 mind left, let's throw a magic pack at him. y'know what guys, go ahead and impliment it and i'll go get a case of muon and make me some more buffs, then tony and i can get some more FP while being called exploiters, cheaters and all. so yeah let's do that and I'll show you exactly what i am referring to when I say invinceble.
Ok I can see an off assumption here. Moshi wrote:
"A newbie stim, yes definately high-quality manufacturing. give someone a 200 heal mind pack and then let em heal for 600 mind damage while only taking 50-80 (dep on focus) and see how well they own all that they see..."
Personally I don't expect a mind heal to be anywhere near the same level as any of the H/A heals. That pack you list might be about the max I would ever expect to see. There are other options considered to counter the "never-ending heal" cycle, such as causing mind wounds that must be considered as well. Add in additional consideration for mind-damaging profeessions to counter that further and make the tactic of taking out he healer a viable one. (Right now, who cares if you kill the healer? Chances are their combat skills stick compared to some of the other classes, so just take out that CH, BH and Commado with mind shots instead!)
At any rate, we still have to worry about time between heals and to consider the fact that what a Medic does is not for themself alone. It is one thing to considerthat giving a specific combatclass some cool combat special or weapon might make them very overpowered. But Medic is a support profession. We give our skills and abilities away, especially taken in consideration with the inability to mind stim ouselves.
An individual medic will "pwn" nothing. A pair of medics is cooperative group play, but if the packs are at least closer to the higher levels of medical skills it could keep out some of the dabblers. I don't expect to see a Med Use 5 mind stim, personally. So anything larger for a group means dividing the heal around wherever possible.
It should also be noted that Medics, Docs and CMs all are considered an integral part of the combat experience. In this sense they are considered a requirement for high-level combat content by admission of the Devs. (See Holos recent post in the Medic classes as unwanted stepchildren thread, for an example of htis statement).It is the Medic's skills that should allow a group to continue on no matter what, and in fact that is already the case if a Medic is healing a non-rifle marksman in a decent group with even just 1 creature handler. And it has nothing to do wtih mind damage, because as long as nobody in the group gets aggro, the medic makes sure they win by letting them special forever and a day... as long as it takes to pull a MOB down. You could say that we ARE a combat class
Worried about mind on the Pet? Call it in while a second pet maintains aggo, tell the pet to Trick, and insta-mind-heal. Not muss no fuss, and that's for a full mind heal with a small mind cost to the CH and no resource cost at all. Sounds like your uber stim to me already exists in the hands of a CH (or anyone with a pet that has trick trained, for that matter.)
The point is that these mechanics are already in the game, but do not seem, to me, to be completely detracting or overpowering to game enjoyment or enjoyment of alternate fields. Each profession can and does play a part.
As for entertainers.... well the Devs have admitted they never really intended for entertainers to really get away from the cantinas. They didn't want them to be "bards". Period.
That position may be rethought, of course, as indicated by Holos post that suggested consideration was being given to provide them with some form of mind damage healing. I really have no great problem with that, but my initial feeling continues to remain that Medics are the combat healers and designed with that purpose in mind (in fact were originally created that way) and are the best suited to handle such a task.
And on the question of the 1 person that can kill 2 MDs if they have mind healing? I sure hope there isn't one if we assume those 2 MDs have any weapons skills! Just like I would expect no 1 character of any type or template to be able to defeat 2 other characters of reasonable template construction. (That is what balancing is all about, IMHO.) But if you are asking me what2 people could defeat any 2 straight MDs with mind heal (straight meaning no other skill points spent)? The answer would be any combat type.
I mean what good are you going to do yourself if the best the two of you can do is heal each other while shooting a CDEF pistol? You're going to get worn down before you can take out even astraight Master Pistoleer who can't heal themself at all if you ask me. And in some ways that's not realy balanced, because it costs those MDs a heck of a lot more points,effort and resourcesto even show up for that fight than it did those Pistoleers.
And complaining that we are moaning isn't fighting the good fight. Offering your arguments, though, is. I'd rather seeyour reasoning than an attempt to degrade those with whom you simply disagree with. Stick to the issues and it's all good.
Zarlor wrote:
Ok I can see an off assumption here. Moshi wrote:
"A newbie stim, yes definately high-quality manufacturing. give someone a 200 heal mind pack and then let em heal for 600 mind damage while only taking 50-80 (dep on focus) and see how well they own all that they see..."
Personally I don't expect a mind heal to be anywhere near the same level as any of the H/A heals. That pack you list might be about the max I would ever expect to see. There are other options considered to counter the "never-ending heal" cycle, such as causing mind wounds that must be considered as well. Add in additional consideration for mind-damaging profeessions to counter that further and make the tactic of taking out he healer a viable one. (Right now, who cares if you kill the healer? Chances are their combat skills stick compared to some of the other classes, so just take out that CH, BH and Commado with mind shots instead!)
At any rate, we still have to worry about time between heals and to consider the fact that what a Medic does is not for themself alone. It is one thing to considerthat giving a specific combatclass some cool combat special or weapon might make them very overpowered. But Medic is a support profession. We give our skills and abilities away, especially taken in consideration with the inability to mind stim ouselves.
An individual medic will "pwn" nothing. A pair of medics is cooperative group play, but if the packs are at least closer to the higher levels of medical skills it could keep out some of the dabblers. I don't expect to see a Med Use 5 mind stim, personally. So anything larger for a group means dividing the heal around wherever possible.
It should also be noted that Medics, Docs and CMs all are considered an integral part of the combat experience. In this sense they are considered a requirement for high-level combat content by admission of the Devs. (See Holos recent post in the Medic classes as unwanted stepchildren thread, for an example of htis statement).It is the Medic's skills that should allow a group to continue on no matter what, and in fact that is already the case if a Medic is healing a non-rifle marksman in a decent group with even just 1 creature handler. And it has nothing to do wtih mind damage, because as long as nobody in the group gets aggro, the medic makes sure they win by letting them special forever and a day... as long as it takes to pull a MOB down. You could say that we ARE a combat class
Worried about mind on the Pet? Call it in while a second pet maintains aggo, tell the pet to Trick, and insta-mind-heal. Not muss no fuss, and that's for a full mind heal with a small mind cost to the CH and no resource cost at all. Sounds like your uber stim to me already exists in the hands of a CH (or anyone with a pet that has trick trained, for that matter.)
The point is that these mechanics are already in the game, but do not seem, to me, to be completely detracting or overpowering to game enjoyment or enjoyment of alternate fields. Each profession can and does play a part.
As for entertainers.... well the Devs have admitted they never really intended for entertainers to really get away from the cantinas. They didn't want them to be "bards". Period.
That position may be rethought, of course, as indicated by Holos post that suggested consideration was being given to provide them with some form of mind damage healing. I really have no great problem with that, but my initial feeling continues to remain that Medics are the combat healers and designed with that purpose in mind (in fact were originally created that way) and are the best suited to handle such a task.
And on the question of the 1 person that can kill 2 MDs if they have mind healing? I sure hope there isn't one if we assume those 2 MDs have any weapons skills! Just like I would expect no 1 character of any type or template to be able to defeat 2 other characters of reasonable template construction. (That is what balancing is all about, IMHO.) But if you are asking me what2 people could defeat any 2 straight MDs with mind heal (straight meaning no other skill points spent)? The answer would be any combat type.
I mean what good are you going to do yourself if the best the two of you can do is heal each other while shooting a CDEF pistol? You're going to get worn down before you can take out even astraight Master Pistoleer who can't heal themself at all if you ask me. And in some ways that's not realy balanced, because it costs those MDs a heck of a lot more points,effort and resourcesto even show up for that fight than it did those Pistoleers.
And complaining that we are moaning isn't fighting the good fight. Offering your arguments, though, is. I'd rather seeyour reasoning than an attempt to degrade those with whom you simply disagree with. Stick to the issues and it's all good.