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Thread: Why PvP damage is fine how it is
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Ducimus
Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:54 pm
#1
Premise:
Reducing PvP damage will have 2 results:
1.) Equipment will greatly influence the outcome, and pilot skill to a lesser influence. where as right now equipment doesnt have a large impact, but mainly the skill of the pilot.
2.) Capacitor shunt to shield will make you invulnerable. Dogfights are fast in speed, opportunities to shoot very breif. Snap shots are the norm, getting behind your opponent like you do in PvE and lay into him is RARE, and only if he screws up.
Real Example - a dogfight i shouldn't have won:
I got in this dogfight with an A wing. He scored the first hit on a snap shot, but all he managed to do was take down my front shield, with no internal damage AT ALL. I immediatly shunted cap to shield. His effort wasted. It could take awhile before he scores another hit (if ever), and if he does, ill just shunt again. Kinda pointless. I score the next hit, and his ship was shredded to 10% chassis, 5% system in one hit.I use an L8 and L7 Re engineered cannons. Im assuming he was using like an L7 player made blaster.
Personally i think this fight exemplified why the damage is fine. Further Damage reduction would only further the equipment gap. I already had better equipment, it was obvious. He needed to get an RE'd cannon. Had he been better equiped i woudn't have won, as shunting wouldnt have done me any good. With cap shunt to shield with internal systems undamaged, he'd have no chance at killing me unless i made a collosally huge mistake.
That said, MP ships need a different rule set.
I dont expect anyone to beleive me, but my experience tells me things are working fine.
Reducing PvP damage will have 2 results:
1.) Equipment will greatly influence the outcome, and pilot skill to a lesser influence. where as right now equipment doesnt have a large impact, but mainly the skill of the pilot.
2.) Capacitor shunt to shield will make you invulnerable. Dogfights are fast in speed, opportunities to shoot very breif. Snap shots are the norm, getting behind your opponent like you do in PvE and lay into him is RARE, and only if he screws up.
Real Example - a dogfight i shouldn't have won:
I got in this dogfight with an A wing. He scored the first hit on a snap shot, but all he managed to do was take down my front shield, with no internal damage AT ALL. I immediatly shunted cap to shield. His effort wasted. It could take awhile before he scores another hit (if ever), and if he does, ill just shunt again. Kinda pointless. I score the next hit, and his ship was shredded to 10% chassis, 5% system in one hit.I use an L8 and L7 Re engineered cannons. Im assuming he was using like an L7 player made blaster.
Personally i think this fight exemplified why the damage is fine. Further Damage reduction would only further the equipment gap. I already had better equipment, it was obvious. He needed to get an RE'd cannon. Had he been better equiped i woudn't have won, as shunting wouldnt have done me any good. With cap shunt to shield with internal systems undamaged, he'd have no chance at killing me unless i made a collosally huge mistake.
That said, MP ships need a different rule set.
I dont expect anyone to beleive me, but my experience tells me things are working fine.
Tsumitsuki
Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:43 am
#2
Even if Damage was reduced the system would still be twitch and so its STILL the skill of the pilot and equipment 50/50 that determines the outcome (less for equipment for master pilots as they are going to at least be the same level and therefore ballpark similar) There is no way it could lessen pilot skill unless you too the pilots ability to control his ship and time his shots out of the equation IE make it like there ground game. Then there would be no skill at all involvedl
The suggestions I made in another post on this board which I forgot to mention however didnt involve reducing PVP firepower directly, rather increasing shields and armour values accross the board and increasing firepower for NPC ships to balance this.
The idea is that by doing this, the devs need only modify existing stats in the database rather then trying to crowbar in a new formula which is applied only when shots hit a player ship. Conditionaly applied formula = bug potential.
just to recap my rules were:
1) Increase shield values by a factor of 10
2) Increase armour values by a factor of 10
3) Increase NPC hit power by a factor of 10
4) Leave Player hit power alone.
I should point out that the armour and shield increases would apply ONLY to player ships.. NPC ships can stay as they are. The numbers I have given of course are purely arbitrarty I have no idea by how much a single shot defeats another player ship. If its by doubly the shields systems and armour then the tweaks need to be larger to compensate.
Hopefully this would increase the number of hits required to disable a player ship from just 1 to 10. I'd settle for 5 if Cap-Shield shunt was a genuine problem.
Dogfighting is what we all want to do of course and have the battles last more than 5 or six seconds once you engage the enemy. Perhaps thats unrealistic but after all this is a game and games are meant to be fun. I'll happily sacrifice realism for playability anyday. As a certain 3d platform adventure game proved four versions in a row *cough*cough*Croft* proved, sudden death isnt fun ^_^
Your Example -
You were using L8-L7 cannons, your assumption that he was using similar weaponry and equipment may have been off the mark. You point out that your single shot shredded his shields, armour and systems and his shot only dumped your front shield. This suggests that his weaponry was radically inferior and/or possibly that his shields were.
You said it your self, you clearly had better equipment, so your example exemplifies the dangers of non master PvP rather than why DR in some form or another should not be implemented. Non Master you have no idea if your opponent in that Ywing is using x1xx equipment of x4xx equipment.
Whether you get the shot in or not depends on your skill as a pilot (which in free space with no obstacles doesnt play _that_ big a role) and your engines which provide your maneuverability. (assuming that the first barrage didnt end in one of you imitating a scrap heap)
Cap-Shield Shunt:
Yep Cap shunt could be a pain but I doubt its going to be a god mode even with DR because once you have position its your skill thats going to let you keep it and as long as you keep firing at the LCS I doubt that anyone can shunt often enough to keep their shields topped up, even if you continually overdrive 4 your weapons cap and have an 8 second turn around on droid commands I _still_ dont think thats going to be enough because evenwith the current system using only an L5 cannon (player made)your opponent will be dumping 2-4k damage at 0.5 effectiveness so that's 1-2k into your shields at a refire rate of 0.4 seconds with a single L5Cannonno way can your capacitor keep you alive indefinitely.
(That cannon is whats on my Y-Wing and I can only fire the one on myowenas its a Y-wing not a longprobe)
I appreciate your argument and you have obviously thought some about this but I think it's flawed, hope you dont see this as a personal attack, it's not. I just firmly believe that direct or indirect DR would be beneficial and that my idea would be the most workable solution (at least to as far as play testing if it doesnt work then I'll come up with a better one ^_^)
Message Edited by Tsumitsuki on 02-02-2005 03:46 AM
Ramona_Garcia
Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:11 am
#3
I am not a real experienced pvper, but I have had my share of dogfights in space. IM^HO, if we reduce damage further we will remove any chance of lower level pilots to compete, no matter their skill.
Tsumitsuki wrote:
I appreciate your argument and you have obviously thought some about this but I think it's flawed, hope you dont see this as a personal attack, it's not. I just firmly believe that direct or indirect DR would be beneficial and that my idea would be the most workable solution (at least to as far as play testing if it doesnt work then I'll come up with a better one ^_^)
Message Edited by Tsumitsuki on 02-02-2005 03:46 AM
MericCarew
Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:18 am
#4
I have to agree that damage is pretty decent how it is. Something that really needs to be dealt with though is getting WO3 fixed as soon as possible so that we can how that will play into things.
I can tell you though that my Advanced has taken 3 hits in one of the engagments we have regularly on Starsider and I still survived the engagment at pretty much 80% effectiveness still. With a ship that only has 65k mass I like to think thats pretty good especially when my oppenant have a lot more mass on average.
Now something that can possibly be done is to give ships a slight bonus based on ship chasis...
Interceptors - 0X bonus to defense
A-Wings - 0X bonus to defense
X-Wings - .6X bonus to defense
B-Wings - 2X bonus to defense
Y-Wings - 1.5X bonus to defense
Mulitpassenger - 5X bonus to defense
I am just throwing these numbers out there, but it would help give each ship type it's defensive strength that it needs because it it's manuverability. So instead of adding more damage reduction which reall isn't needed we could differentiate the ships which was what I feel the Dev's have been trying to do the whole time.
I can tell you though that my Advanced has taken 3 hits in one of the engagments we have regularly on Starsider and I still survived the engagment at pretty much 80% effectiveness still. With a ship that only has 65k mass I like to think thats pretty good especially when my oppenant have a lot more mass on average.
Now something that can possibly be done is to give ships a slight bonus based on ship chasis...
Interceptors - 0X bonus to defense
A-Wings - 0X bonus to defense
X-Wings - .6X bonus to defense
B-Wings - 2X bonus to defense
Y-Wings - 1.5X bonus to defense
Mulitpassenger - 5X bonus to defense
I am just throwing these numbers out there, but it would help give each ship type it's defensive strength that it needs because it it's manuverability. So instead of adding more damage reduction which reall isn't needed we could differentiate the ships which was what I feel the Dev's have been trying to do the whole time.
Tsumitsuki
Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:44 am
#5
Meric
Thats more or less what Im suggesting, but the problem with increasing defenses is that it unbalances the PVE player.. thus you need to increase NPC ship hit power to compensate or you end up over tanked. Doing it on a per ship basis is fine for PVP (perhaps) but would be impossible to reconcile.
Ramona
I dissagree that changing the system would reduce lower players capacity to take part. Already If a tier2 pilot were to go up against a master there is no way they are going to win anyway. Ive already pointed out the problems non master PVP in that you cant tell who's got what and infact reducing damage would increase the lower levels capacity (if they are insane enough to take on pvp without at least having a clue as to whats in their opponents ship) because they are likely to live a little bit longer and more time= more chance to get that golden position right on the tail ( or above and behind) assuming their engines have the capability to keep them there.
Nope sorry, not convince =D
Message Edited by Tsumitsuki on 02-02-2005 04:45 AM
Ramona_Garcia
Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:50 am
#6
Err... how often do you have pvped in space, Tsu? That golden position on someone's tail is not something I encounter very often, unless the enemy is not aware of me, and has a slow reaction.
Tsumitsuki
Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:04 am
#7
Besides if ALL players are able to compete in a balanced fashion from the word go whats the point in the skilling up system? and the lower levels are quite capable of squabbling between themselves. I myself am just pilot 4334, I can't go into deep space yet but I have had a number of PVP battles.. some I lost some I won and I enjoyed every one of them.
My mistake in the ones I lost was not taking into account the difference between level 2 engines and level 5 engines (I was pilot 1111 at the time) and I was totally out classed on maneuverablility in the post skirmish technical discussion (literaly a tech talk on "whats in your ship" not hate tells or whining =P )
The latest one I won was a "friendly" if there is such a thing in space, duel between me and a guildie, I destroyed him in 2 hits.. we had comparable engines but I had twin flash cannons totalling around 3.5k damage per hit. once I had position the fight lasted about 2 seconds. Fun but a bit of an anticlimax.
This was Ixiyen Vs longprobe. My ship had less mass and therefore (potentially) lower equipment but was able to maneuver more effectively at higher speeds (although faster ships may over shoot a slower but more maneuverable enemy and end up with the firing solution going the wrong way).
I really do feel that battles need to be made to last a little longer. I hear a lot of people say they cant be bothered with PVP in space because its over so quickly.
Limiting damage (either by reducing hits taken from player ships or upping shield and armour values), so long as its done evenly accross the board and balanced won't do anything except lengthen battle times, Im positive of this =)
Tsumitsuki
Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:11 am
#8
"Err... how often do you have pvped in space, Tsu? That golden position on someone's tail is not something I encounter very often, unless the enemy is not aware of me, and has a slow reaction"
Bingo!!! Thanks Ramona thats my entire point. Regarldess of your reactions you are dead on the first hit (most of the time)
This is entirely realistic, but not conducive to playability.
I have had 6 pvp fights so far. Before you scoff at me, thats partly because I cant enter deep space yet (dissapointed kessel turned out to be non pvp) and few players accept challenges and even fewer fly around overt.. Yes I do fly around overt for getting faction points for the most part its perfectly safe to do so.
Tsumitsuki
Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:18 am
#9
I can understand non masters not flying around overt as well especially 2222 and lower because if everyone did it you'd get some master pilot with an attitude problem comming a long and spending their time trashing newbies ships.
I still say damage reduction all round to make fights last a little longer and the lower ranks PVP at their own risk and shouldnt complain if they get totalled.
The other thread I posted in was a call for a ranking/scoring system which I also agree with and would like to see. Of course you need to balance the value of a kill according to equipment levels so that a master ship gets nothing for killing a ship kitted out entirely in level 3 equipment ( arbitrarty example obviously playtesting and balancing would be required)
Coran_Sienar
Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:28 am
#10
For people who wish to PvP but aren't Masters, there could be a separate PvP option so that when you're overt, only people who are equivalent (or near to) your tier can attack and be attacked by you. That way, newbies won't have to worry about being ganked by masters.
Tsumitsuki
Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:37 am
#11
Yes the same Idea just hit me... we need instances of Deep space that are based upon equipment level.
Therefore if you have x2xxequipment in your shipthen you can only enterdeep space instances for tier 2+ (its up to you if you want to risk a higher tier but your pilot level will limit how high you can go untill you hit master)
Im still going to argue for damage reduction, but the addition of level based instances would make us all greatly more informed on the status quo
Ramona_Garcia
Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:39 am
#12
Tsumitsuki wrote:
"Err... how often do you have pvped in space, Tsu? That golden position on someone's tail is not something I encounter very often, unless the enemy is not aware of me, and has a slow reaction"
Bingo!!! Thanks Ramona thats my entire point. Regarldess of your reactions you are dead on the first hit (most of the time)
This is entirely realistic, but not conducive to playability.
I have had 6 pvp fights so far. Before you scoff at me, thats partly because I cant enter deep space yet (dissapointed kessel turned out to be non pvp) and few players accept challenges and even fewer fly around overt.. Yes I do fly around overt for getting faction points for the most part its perfectly safe to do so.
I disagree. I was almost never dead on a first pass, and that's with a dinky TIE/IN for most of the time - yes, I pvped before master, and I see no problem with the system when I can shoot down an Ace in an Ixiyen with a TIE/IN in tier 3. If you react quickly, shunt cap to shield and evade you can survive for some time in a dogfight. Naithan managed to survive for 30 seconds once with half a dozen rebel ships shooting at him, and take out 2 of them.
Again, if you get one shotted then you were either unlucky, or not paying attention, and if you are overt or in deep space and not paying attention, then you deserve to get blown up - as I was, a while back, stumbling on an awing while in conversation over tells.
Coran_Sienar
Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:43 am
#13
The only time I've been killed in a single pass was when I was flying around in my Nova. hehehe. I don't mind getting killed, but those plasma alarms really need to be fixed. (No, they're still not 100% fixed.)
I've also found that most players can't seem to hit a corkscrewing target.
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