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Juusman wrote:

Don't do it!! Don't give in to the whiners devs!! Some people appreciate being forced to group!

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/sign

I'll take my chances being shot at by other players and bring all the new friends I've made while grouping to get my tier 3 missions completed.

I know they enjoy grouping too. Plus it's great to have a scrap every now and then. Master titles mean very little now. Ace actually means that you've had to at least risk fighting hard to acheive being one ofthe elite.

Gabriel' Nightstalker. Rebel Pilot.

Darn typo's... must learn to spell.

Message Edited by Spinnthrift on 11-05-2004 05:29 PM

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Juusman wrote:

Don't do it!! Don't give in to the whiners devs!! Some people appreciate being forced to group!

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That is so not the issue with master mission. Most people recgonize the fact that they will have to group to do the master missions. Most will be used to it since they will need to group as early as Tier 3 to complete missions.

The issue is the fact that you have a PVE mission in a PVP zone. A PVP zone where there are already groups of griefers blowing people away as they load in....and since it takes a little as 1 or 2 hits, the griefers have little to fear about themselves getting killed. A PVE mission in a PVP zone where there is zero benefit to engaging and killing another player while you are on the mission.

The majority of SWG players are NOT PVP'ers. The people who want to PVP as much as possible are a small minority. Some people want to PVP at times, but not while doing a PVE mission. Many don't want any PVP AT ALL. Most PVE'ers have no problem with PVP'ers fighting each other, since that's what they want to do. They just don't want it forced on them, as this mission will do for anyone who wasn't one of the first 5 people on the server to master.

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Juusman wrote:

Don't do it!! Don't give in to the whiners devs!! Some people appreciate being forced to group!

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From my understanding (and I have yet to get there, so it's from what I've read on here), it's not a question of people being forced to group. There are a number of people who have posted very reasonable descriptions of one master pilot taking out an entire group of escorts for someone trying for master. If you can be one-shotted by another player, that's simply not acceptable when you're trying for a sustained mission.

For those who already have Master, congratulations. Everyone else will have it much harder than you did, and it will only get worse as time goes on and more campers wait to pop people as they hyper in.

There's an alternative to the either/or of leaving it in or taking it out. Some people have suggested moving the master mission to another location or to an instanced version of Kessel so you don't have to deal with gank squads. Some have also suggested in addition to that, adding another mission to kill a certain number of ships in PvP, with the caveat that they have to be at least 4/4/4/4 and you can only get one kill from a given player every 24 hours, and the mission doesn't reset after you die. You'd have to do both to get the Ace title. The biggest issue, from what I've seen, is not people complaining about PvP vs PvE- it's that they're being required to fend off one while trying to accomplish the other.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but the situation as it stands isn't workable, as you can see just by browsing here and the Pilot forum. The Pilot Correspondent has this as one of his Top Five Issues, and is pointing out that it's running over 90% against forced PvP to Master Pilot. There's better ways to accomplish the goal without creating the perfect griefing system.

Don't give in like you did with the jedi please. Can we at least wait it out and see if these nightmare scenarios play out? All these fears are based on nothing more than supposition it seems. And for those saying you want it tough just not against an opponent who actually can think and isnt simply a stupid bot give it a rest,I find it difficult to believe. The same way you characterize anyone who is against you idea as a wanna be griefer its just as easy to conclude that those in favor of moving it want it easy.

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Notch13 wrote:
Don't give in like you did with the jedi please. Can we at least wait it out and see if these nightmare scenarios play out? All these fears are based on nothing more than supposition it seems. And for those saying you want it tough just not against an opponent who actually can think and isnt simply a stupid bot give it a rest,I find it difficult to believe. The same way you characterize anyone who is against you idea as a wanna be griefer its just as easy to conclude that those in favor of moving it want it easy.

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I'm looking forward to PvP; unlike in the ground game, I'll be able to bring what I believe are my pretty considerable skills in these kinds of games to the table. The problem is that you're conflating the mission (kill PvE targets) with the fact that PvP is going on the entire time. If the actual mastery were conferred by doing PvP, that's one thing. But this just creates a situation where people with nothing to risk can take everything away, repeatedly, from people who do have something to lose.

Not one person I've seen arguing against putting the Master mission in a PvP zone has said they don't want to PvP- as you said, fighting a thinking opponent is much more fun than going up against an AI. It's just not appropriate that the system is currently geared to force people into doing both at the same time, especially when the attacking players are so much more powerful than the person trying to get Master. A current Master pilot is much more powerful than a 4444, and skill can only offset that so much.

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SpaceCrazy wrote:

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Juusman wrote:

Don't do it!! Don't give in to the whiners devs!! Some people appreciate being forced to group!

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That is so not the issue with master mission. Most people recgonize the fact that they will have to group to do the master missions. Most will be used to it since they will need to group as early as Tier 3 to complete missions.

The issue is the fact that you have a PVE mission in a PVP zone. A PVP zone where there are already groups of griefers blowing people away as they load in....and since it takes a little as 1 or 2 hits, the griefers have little to fear about themselves getting killed. A PVE mission in a PVP zone where there is zero benefit to engaging and killing another player while you are on the mission.

The majority of SWG players are NOT PVP'ers. The people who want to PVP as much as possible are a small minority. Some people want to PVP at times, but not while doing a PVE mission. Many don't want any PVP AT ALL. Most PVE'ers have no problem with PVP'ers fighting each other, since that's what they want to do. They just don't want it forced on them, as this mission will do for anyone who wasn't one of the first 5 people on the server to master.

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I can appreciate your criticism of being griefed while loading into the zone. I can also appreciate criticismtowards the devs for thepeople exploiting bugs in the game to 1 shot kill other players. However, I like the idea that this mission is extremely risky by being in a PvP zone. A mission where players can't simply figure out how to beatthe AI, reagardless whether they are grouped or not. In my opinion, once people figure out how to beat the AI it's no challenge what so ever... and eventually leads to people posting how they solo'd the mission.

What's great about this mission is precisely the fact that there is no "walk through" to do it. It takes strategy, organization, and YES.. other players to do it, and maybe a little luck too! GREAT! But if you do get that master pilot cert, you know and everyone else knows that you accomplished probably one ofthe most difficult things to achieve in this game... and probably have a good story of how it went down.

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Juusman wrote:

I can also appreciate criticismtowards the devs for thepeople exploiting bugs in the game to 1 shot kill other players.

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Juusman wrote:

Don't do it!! Don't give in to the whiners devs!! Some people appreciate being forced to group!

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I agree. Everybody I've talked to in game think this is awesome. It's an interactive way for all of us to have some part in the GCW. It's only the people who dislike it that post, and even they are few and far between.

I'm doing my tier 3 missions right now, and have read over all the posts about the master pilot "problem". Honestly, I can't wait to try it. Quit complaining just because it's a little hard. JTL is a completely different game than the ground one, so maybe not everybody is supposed to be able to master. I mean, don't you get tired of seeing master after master running by you on the ground? This is skill based, not just clicking. So quit complaining cause there's someone out there who can fly better than you, and practice so you can come back and kill him next time.