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Thread: Petition: Keep the master pilot mission in Kessel!
JimerLins wrote:
Notch13 wrote:
Don't give in like you did with the jedi please. Can we at least wait it out and see if these nightmare scenarios play out? All these fears are based on nothing more than supposition it seems. And for those saying you want it tough just not against an opponent who actually can think and isnt simply a stupid bot give it a rest,I find it difficult to believe. The same way you characterize anyone who is against you idea as a wanna be griefer its just as easy to conclude that those in favor of moving it want it easy.
I'm looking forward to PvP; unlike in the ground game, I'll be able to bring what I believe are my pretty considerable skills in these kinds of games to the table. The problem is that you're conflating the mission (kill PvE targets) with the fact that PvP is going on the entire time. If the actual mastery were conferred by doing PvP, that's one thing. But this just creates a situation where people with nothing to risk can take everything away, repeatedly, from people who do have something to lose.
Not one person I've seen arguing against putting the Master mission in a PvP zone has said they don't want to PvP- as you said, fighting a thinking opponent is much more fun than going up against an AI. It's just not appropriate that the system is currently geared to force people into doing both at the same time, especially when the attacking players are so much more powerful than the person trying to get Master. A current Master pilot is much more powerful than a 4444, and skill can only offset that so much.
I don't buy this argument. Yes, the player who is 4444 is mismatched against a master pilot, but that doesn't stop you from bringing in friends who may be master pilots themselves, and maybe have multi-player ships to boot. You seem to think that once you get your master pilot you sit in kessel griefing other players rather than helping other players obtain their own masteries. I
n fact, that's precisely why this is so interesting, as groups of players -maybe even multiple guilds -will be forced to work togetherto control the Kessel space zone. I can see rebels and imperials battling it out for control of the zone in order to get more rebels/imperials into the zone toobtain their masteries. That's precisely what's so beautiful about it.
Notch13 wrote:
Can we at least wait it out and see if these nightmare scenarios play out?
It's already happening. There have been posts by players who were 2 NPC kills away from completing the first of the two missions and were one-shot killed by another player. There have been posts by players who brought a group with them only to have the group killed by griefers camping the hyperspace point. And the game has only been out for a little over a week in the US.
The problems will only get worse as time goes on and Kessel becomes filled with players who are A) looking for some PVP, or B) looking to grief people doing the missions. It will become next to impossible for anyone to master six months down the road, no matter how good they and the friends they bring are. Most need to group just to do the PVE mission. That group and the mission-taker will get shredded by waves of players come in from every direction throughout the entire mission, which can be rather lengthy.
JimerLins wrote:
Juusman wrote:
I don't buy this argument. Yes, the player who is 4444 is mismatched against a master pilot, but that doesn't stop you from bringing in friends who may be master pilots themselves, and maybe have multi-player ships to boot. You seem to think that once you get your master pilot you sit in kessel griefing other players rather than helping other players obtain their own masteries. I
n fact, that's precisely why this is so interesting, as groups of players - maybe even multiple guilds - will be forced to work together to control the Kessel space zone. I can see rebels and imperials battling it out for control of the zone in order to get more rebels/imperials into the zone to obtain their masteries. That's precisely what's so beautiful about it.
I hope you're right- I really do. However, you're relying on people's better natures to overcome other people's nastier side. The problem is it'll take 10 people for every griefer to keep it under control. The expenditure of energy and coordination will be so much higher on the "good guys" side than on the "bad guys" side that it won't be worth it. Maybe if it were possible to last longer than 1-2 shots in PvP, this could work, but all someone has to do is get in a single shot, and given what I've seen happen on the ground, I promise you this will happen. One lone jackass can make life miserable for 20 people if he doesn't care about his ship decaying.
It's always easier to destroy than to create. For some reason, there's people that are actually willing to expend inordinate amounts of time and energy just to take away other people's fun. But in order to discourage them, you have to expend even more time and energy, because the very act of trying to stop them fans their desire for attention.
Man.. you've got a crappy attitude. Do you go through life thinking like this? If the world was left to people like you.. nothing good in the world would ever be accomplished. Jeesh.. lighten up a little.
And no. I don't buy your argument that it takes "10 people for every griefer to keep it under control." Where did you get that from? Is that your own experience? Have you even been to Kessel? I'll bet you haven't even been there because you've been brain washed into thinking that you'll get your ass waxed the minute you load in. There are a lot of people who go to Kessel who aren't even tier 3 yet. They go there to gain xp.
And why is that the griefers have a monopoly on 1 shot kills? Don't you think other people will be 1 shot killing the griefers? Besides.. I've heard that the 1 shot kills are an exploit of a known bug that I won't care mention.
It's pissy whiners like you who would rather waste time here in the boards then actually getting in the game and doing something about it!
Juusman wrote:
JimerLins wrote:
Juusman wrote:I don't buy this argument. Yes, the player who is 4444 is mismatched against a master pilot, but that doesn't stop you from bringing in friends who may be master pilots themselves, and maybe have multi-player ships to boot. You seem to think that once you get your master pilot you sit in kessel griefing other players rather than helping other players obtain their own masteries. I
n fact, that's precisely why this is so interesting, as groups of players - maybe even multiple guilds - will be forced to work together to control the Kessel space zone. I can see rebels and imperials battling it out for control of the zone in order to get more rebels/imperials into the zone to obtain their masteries. That's precisely what's so beautiful about it.
I hope you're right- I really do. However, you're relying on people's better natures to overcome other people's nastier side. The problem is it'll take 10 people for every griefer to keep it under control. The expenditure of energy and coordination will be so much higher on the "good guys" side than on the "bad guys" side that it won't be worth it. Maybe if it were possible to last longer than 1-2 shots in PvP, this could work, but all someone has to do is get in a single shot, and given what I've seen happen on the ground, I promise you this will happen. One lone jackass can make life miserable for 20 people if he doesn't care about his ship decaying.
It's always easier to destroy than to create. For some reason, there's people that are actually willing to expend inordinate amounts of time and energy just to take away other people's fun. But in order to discourage them, you have to expend even more time and energy, because the very act of trying to stop them fans their desire for attention.Man.. you've got a crappy attitude. Do you go through life thinking like this? If the world was left to people like you.. nothing good in the world would ever be accomplished. Jeesh.. lighten up a little.
And no. I don't buy your argument that it takes "10 people for every griefer to keep it under control." Where did you get that from? Is that your own experience? Have you even been to Kessel? I'll bet you haven't even been there because you've been brain washed into thinking that you'll get your ass waxed the minute you load in. There are a lot of people who go to Kessel who aren't even tier 3 yet. They go there to gain xp.
And why is that the griefers have a monopoly on 1 shot kills? Don't you think other people will be 1 shot killing the griefers? Besides.. I've heard that the 1 shot kills are an exploit of a known bug that I won't care mention.
It's pissy whiners like you who would rather waste time here in the boards then actually getting in the game and doing something about it!
Pointing out the truth isn't having a crappy attitude. Yours, on the other hand, is dismissive and arrogantly high-handed in scorning a viewpoint that you don't share. You're completely entitled to your opinion, as I am mine.
I'm actually one of the most positive people you'll meet in the game. However, I also know that there are griefers, and they don't go away- or at least no one's ever found a way to get rid of the griefer mindset. I'd actively participate and encourage something like what you're talking about, and in fact have considered trying to get people together on my server at some point in the future to do just what you're talking about.
But when you need a large force to overcome a small one, you can only get that kind of coordination for a while. It's like herding cats. The reason I'm afraid it won't be successful is simply human nature- the griefers won't have to work as hard to attain their goal. It's so much easier to just create havoc than to actually accomplish a goal. As I said, I sincerely hope you're right. But as a matter of fact- it is easier to destroy than to create. That's not pissy, it's just the truth. Agree or don't, it won't change the facts.
Anyway, you make some good points, and although I don't think you agree, I feel I've made some good ones as well. I think there's probably a solution that can be implemented that will work better than what we have now; and keep the mission hard to accomplish while at the same time reducing or eliminating the potential for griefing.
Vicotnik wrote:
/not sign
I love PVP and I love grouping (in fact, I absolutely HATE the idea of "Solo groups" and refuse to utilize them. Means I'm poor as dirt though), but please. Leave the PVP zones for PVP. There is no reason for these missions to be there. Not at all.
Can I ask all the /sign people something? Why on earth are you actually defending this?
I mean, it doesn't have to be in a PVP zone to be hard. It doesn't have to be in a PVP zone to enforce grouping. Both things can be done just as well with PVP.
Now let's take a look at what these missions do accomplish:
1. Creates a "gate" on how quick and how many people can master the profession. In a few months from now, it will probably be too hard to even do these missions. The population in Kessel can only grow over time, not shrink, so we have a rather odd situation where there's an artificial max population on the number of masters.
That's a good thing. I don't want to see everyone walking around with master pilot titles. I also don't want to see everyone flying around in YT 1300s, Nova Couriers, and Decimators. You kind of contradict yourself by saying that it will probably be too hard to do these missions, yet you also say that the population will grow over time.
I thinkplacing the mission in a PvPzone will slow down the number of masters, but not stop it because people and guildswill organize, group, and fight in order to get their missions done
2. Creates even more animosity between PVP players and PVE players, these threads already show that. The fact is simple: These missions can't promote PVP. You can't get a PVEer to start PVPing because of it. As a matter of fact, if anything they will be more turned off by it.
So don't do the master mission then. This supports point 1) above.
3. The missions actually encourage griefing, since there is now a legit way of ruining missions for other players.
One man's terrorist is another man's revolutionary. What you call griefing may be someone else's idea of fun. It's up to us to get organized and stay organized enough to pull this mission off. Obviously some people are getting it done. So can you, if you try.
4. Innocent PVPers who are in Kessel for some PVP fun will be considered as a "griefer" when they kill a non-PVPer doing the missions. This ties in with point 2, obviously.
This ties in with point 3) above.
Now tell me how you can defend all this? How can you defend this when it would work just as well without any PVP?
You mean PvE? Give me a break.. it's just a matter of time until someone figures out how to "beat" the mission AI solo, post on the boards and before we know it, everyone's flying around in their shiny new multi-passenger ships. No thanks.. I'll take my chances with how its now.
As far as camping goes, I've only seen 4 other Imps during the last 5 days I've been going to Kessel to hunt. I did see one imp soloing the corvette with his strike group NPCs that I could've gotten, but griefing someone's master mission isn't really my thing. I suppose if you're willing to be bored for hours on end waiting for people to hyper in you could do it, but I don't think griefers are that patient.
The only large issue I have with Kessel is that there's no POIs for finding fighters, and it's mostly just empty space. After taking down one group of fighters I usually have to circle around for 15 minutes before I find another group to hunt. It'd be more interesting if there were say a smuggler's starport, an imperial base, and a rebel base, with static spawns.