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Thread: Why PvP damage is fine how it is
Tumbler2002
Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:17 pm
#53
1) Increase shield values by a factor of 10
2) Increase armour values by a factor of 10
3) Increase NPC hit power by a factor of 10
4) Leave Player hit power alone.
Why are so many people afraid of dropping PVP damage?
Lets look at the numbers.
A typical lvl 7+ Blaster does 1700-2700 damage.
Most ships using these blasters have 2 weapon hardpoints. So damage per volley should be 3400-5400.
We'll assume these weapons do .5 to both shields and armor. So 2 blasters should do 1700-2700 to shields. Then the same to armor.
The best shields I've seen are 2499/2499, plus add in 1500 armor (that is being really generous) and you are likely to lose your shields on the first volley, and GUARANTEED to lose the armor in one volley. Subsystems are probably hit second shot, for sure on 3rd. Then lets consider that either eweapons or weapon overcharge are being used. Now we have blasters hitting shields / armor for 3400-5400 (or more in the case of eweapons).
Lets apply the 75% pvp patch to that. 2550-4050 to shields AND armor. That will vape a ship in one hit, mabye 2. What is the point of dropping it to 75%? It still takes only 2 shots to kill someone. And these are VERY average weapons. Higher powered weapons are certainly available.
Lets try 50%. 1700-2700 - Now we are dealing with numbers that somewhere in the ball park. Still has a decent chance at taking down the shields fairly quickly, and will melt armor. Even if it only does 1700 most people don't use more than 1000 so that will quickly hit subsystems and basically end the fight.
Now look at 25%. 850-1350 - That is between 2 and 4 shots to get through someones shields, and probably 1-2 shots to get through armor. Shouldn't the best shields in the game be able to take at LEAST 2 shots from AVERAGE guns?
Consider how fast you'd get shredded from a gun hitting 2x as hard as these? Or from a ship with 3 weapon hardpoints?
The suggestion above was to:
1) Increase shield values by a factor of 10
2) Increase armour values by a factor of 10
3) Increase NPC hit power by a factor of 10
4) Leave Player hit power alone.
Why fix 3 things when you can fix one? The end result is the same. This fix doesn't apply to multiplayer ships yet either. Those obviously need a huge boost in performance.
Message Edited by Tumbler2002 on 02-07-2005 01:33 PM
SwordNMace
Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:12 pm
#54
Tumbler2002 wrote:
Why fix 3 things when you can fix one?
Why attempt to fix something that isn't broken?
Message Edited by SwordNMace on 02-07-2005 04:15 PM
Ramona_Garcia
Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:57 pm
#55
I have had a 10 minute duel in an Interceptor against an Awing... we could both use cap to shield... if we had done less damage we'd still be at it. One volley decided the fight. Reduce damage, and fights become laughable affairs.
Starson
Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:13 pm
#56
Tumbler2002 wrote:
1) Increase shield values by a factor of 10
2) Increase armour values by a factor of 10
3) Increase NPC hit power by a factor of 10
4) Leave Player hit power alone.
Why are so many people afraid of dropping PVP damage?
Lets look at the numbers.
I can answer that question, and you partically answered it. They are afarid, if ya can't sneek up and gank someone with one or two shots, ya might have to actually dog fight for a few min.'s. I have helped many many people on their required missions, and to sit still at 5 or 10% thrust turning in a circle waiting for your target to come around is not dogfighting. People don't want a fair fight, they want to sneek up andone shot everything and clam they are uber, how embarrassing will it be for pep.'s, to actually admit that they can't fly.
xTekx
Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:28 pm
#57
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
Ok, folks... actual example from yesterday, 4 on 4 skirmish, arranged, so people knew what was coming.
If I can spend half the battle with an ace on my tail in an x wing, missile alarms blarring in my Interceptor's cockpit, and taking missile hits as well as blaster hits and yet survive (all armor gone though), and that with tier 3 crafted gear for protection,until my wingman blows the X wing finally away, then we don't need additional damage reduction.
What we need are people who try to learn the ropes of flying, and don't start whining when their pve tactics don't work on players.
I agree 110% with what Romana said and especially the statement i highlighted. In JTL if you go up against a highly skilled pilot then you WILL die! That's why its called PvP.People cry way too much and making it all balanced and fair, and look what happened to the ground game. Buffs, food, blah blah blah andnow you have to have DoTs and Doc to even compete. Lame if you ask me.
If you find yourself dying in space from other people then a) don't go overt b) talk to those people who are killing you and get some training. LEARN to freaking fly instead of calling for a damage reduction because you can't figure out to beat someone who does know how to fly.
xTekx
Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:30 pm
#58
Ducimus wrote:
Starson couldn't be any more incorrect in his assumption and broad generalization.
actually i think he makes a very good point.
Ramona_Garcia
Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:36 pm
#59
Starson wrote:
I can answer that question, and you partically answered it. They are afarid, if ya can't sneek up and gank someone with one or two shots, ya might have to actually dog fight for a few min.'s. I have helped many many people on their required missions, and to sit still at 5 or 10% thrust turning in a circle waiting for your target to come around is not dogfighting. People don't want a fair fight, they want to sneek up andone shot everything and clam they are uber, how embarrassing will it be for pep.'s, to actually admit that they can't fly.
PvPed some? Helping people on missions is not pvp. PvE is not pvp. Unless you have actual pvp experience, and not just a few duels against pve "aces" under your belt, don't talk about pvp. If you are too dumb to check your six everytime you are overt, then you deserve to get blown up. That's part of pvp, as any real pilot will tell you - situational awareness. If you can't spot an enemy closing in you have already lost
I dogfight, and I know what I am speaking of. If we had less damage I'd still be turning agaisnt an Awing, never to be shot down.
The only players wanting to lessen pvp damage are the pve "Aces" who can't hack it. The rest of us does pvp, and is fine with the damage we do - we know that unless we are good enough we get blown up for a mistake, no safety margin to let the better equipment win.
Ducimus
Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:51 pm
#60
xTekx wrote:
Ducimus wrote:
Starson couldn't be any more incorrect in his assumption and broad generalization.
actually i think he makes a very good point.
No he doesnt, it only show's to me he doesn't know what hes talking about, or is self rightous ****ole. He assumes much about people he hasn't even met. His remark is nothing less than bigoted.
Someone mentioned this somewhere else on the board so ill mention it here.
Grab a buddy, and both of you equip your ships with low level blasters. I dunno what level, lets just say Level 3 or 4 blaster
Now for PvP practice, go duel in space in your A wings or T/A's with 1800ish shields. Whoever scores the first hit wins, and both of you back off to 1000 meters and engage again.
Now try and take out the other guys sheilds with the same blaster. When you've done that, come back here and report how long it took.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 02-07-2005 03:54 PM
Starson
Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:54 pm
#61
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
Starson wrote:
I can answer that question, and you partically answered it. They are afarid, if ya can't sneek up and gank someone with one or two shots, ya might have to actually dog fight for a few min.'s. I have helped many many people on their required missions, and to sit still at 5 or 10% thrust turning in a circle waiting for your target to come around is not dogfighting. People don't want a fair fight, they want to sneek up andone shot everything and clam they are uber, how embarrassing will it be for pep.'s, to actually admit that they can't fly.
PvPed some? Helping people on missions is not pvp. PvE is not pvp. Unless you have actual pvp experience, and not just a few duels against pve "aces" under your belt, don't talk about pvp. If you are too dumb to check your six everytime you are overt, then you deserve to get blown up. That's part of pvp, as any real pilot will tell you - situational awareness. If you can't spot an enemy closing in you have already lost
I dogfight, and I know what I am speaking of. If we had less damage I'd still be turning agaisnt an Awing, never to be shot down.
The only players wanting to lessen pvp damage are the pve "Aces" who can't hack it. The rest of us does pvp, and is fine with the damage we do - we know that unless we are good enough we get blown up for a mistake, no safety margin to let the better equipment win.
Yes I do pvp quite often, and you are right, i should not have spoken about pve, on a pvp thread. Its just a point I am trying to make, bad habbits in pve tend to cross over to pvp. I do understand and use my radar all the time ( i even enlarged it for my old eyes :smileywink
those new players that I take under my wing to help and teach, well thats the first lession 'situational awareness' and 'mind your shields. I can hack pvp, but I really see not point in it. They never should have taken componet damage away as well. You should pay the price for losing a battle. I relly think pvp battles should last a little longer, yes my first message was harsh, but that seems to bethe only one's that get read. One more point upon refelction, if pvp did last a little longer it would give those players that are not so ubber leet twitch pilots a little better chance.
Ramona_Garcia
Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:48 pm
#62
You pay a price for losing in every zone but deep space. And if pvp did last longer and gave the not so twitch pilots a chance... heck, do we really want to have the no skill template grinders rule space pvp as well as ground pvp?
Starson wrote:
Yes I do pvp quite often, and you are right, i should not have spoken about pve, on a pvp thread. Its just a point I am trying to make, bad habbits in pve tend to cross over to pvp. I do understand and use my radar all the time ( i even enlarged it for my old eyes :smileywink
Starson
Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:03 pm
#63
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
You pay a price for losing in every zone but deep space. And if pvp did last longer and gave the not so twitch pilots a chance... heck, do we really want to have the no skill template grinders rule space pvp as well as ground pvp?
Starson wrote:
Yes I do pvp quite often, and you are right, i should not have spoken about pve, on a pvp thread. Its just a point I am trying to make, bad habbits in pve tend to cross over to pvp. I do understand and use my radar all the time ( i even enlarged it for my old eyes :smileywink
True true, but i flew to every space sector overt this weekend, spent at least 15 min.'s in eachlooking for a fight, and never found one overt player. No of course I don't want the template grinders to rule space, but come on, I find no challenge in a 2 hit kill. I have never found a pvp'er who could shake me off his 6, when i got there. Yes my sig., says A-wing, but I still take out the x, and still same thing. And the stop, and he will fly right by trick, never happen. I pay attention, ya stop in front of me and ya die that much quicker. I just want the game to be fun, and as pvp stands now their is no reason for it, I don't have to brag to show I am a good pilot. Oh I know let me loot the ubber 3000 f/b2k mass shield ya got on your ship for my awing then i will be happy (just kidding).
xTekx
Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:10 pm
#64
Starson wrote:
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
You pay a price for losing in every zone but deep space. And if pvp did last longer and gave the not so twitch pilots a chance... heck, do we really want to have the no skill template grinders rule space pvp as well as ground pvp?
Starson wrote:
Yes I do pvp quite often, and you are right, i should not have spoken about pve, on a pvp thread. Its just a point I am trying to make, bad habbits in pve tend to cross over to pvp. I do understand and use my radar all the time ( i even enlarged it for my old eyes :smileywink
True true, but i flew to every space sector overt this weekend, spent at least 15 min.'s in eachlooking for a fight, and never found one overt player. No of course I don't want the template grinders to rule space, but come on, I find no challenge in a 2 hit kill. I have never found a pvp'er who could shake me off his 6, when i got there. Yes my sig., says A-wing, but I still take out the x, and still same thing. And the stop, and he will fly right by trick, never happen. I pay attention, ya stop in front of me and ya die that much quicker. I just want the game to be fun, and as pvp stands now their is no reason for it, I don't have to brag to show I am a good pilot. Oh I know let me loot the ubber 3000 f/b2k mass shield ya got on your ship for my awing then i will be happy (just kidding).
The 2 hit kill is what distinguishes the Good pvp pilots from the not so good pvp pilots. The good pilots know how to avoid the hits. I prefer the damage system the way it is. If I die then I made a mistake and better not make it the second time. Its called learning. Some people seem to forget thatJTL takes real skill as opposed to the ground game where its all template based. Its why I prefer space pvp over ground pvp. I don't claim to be the best pilot out there, but i know i'm a good pilot and know what I can and can't do.
Starson
Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:59 pm
#65
Ok guy, and girls I conceed a little.... I am man enough 
. I all ways fly evasive in a hot (red dot) zone, I don't assume they are all npc's. I suppose not everyone thinks that way, I will see ya comming, and will not joust, I will try to out fly ya. I promise if i sneak up on ya I will fire one across the bow, but watch out for that second one. But still most of you, I think, that talk of this are twitchfan's of the old xwing vs tie games, I have seen your post's around (but i may be wrong, don't rem everyone's name). I have never played a flight sim where a fight is so quick. I stillthink an engagement should last longer, old school and all. Don't get me wrong I like it the way it is, and will never quit flying no matter what they do. Like I said a 2 or 3 shot kill is no challenge to me, I perfer skill over luck.
. I all ways fly evasive in a hot (red dot) zone, I don't assume they are all npc's. I suppose not everyone thinks that way, I will see ya comming, and will not joust, I will try to out fly ya. I promise if i sneak up on ya I will fire one across the bow, but watch out for that second one. But still most of you, I think, that talk of this are twitchfan's of the old xwing vs tie games, I have seen your post's around (but i may be wrong, don't rem everyone's name). I have never played a flight sim where a fight is so quick. I stillthink an engagement should last longer, old school and all. Don't get me wrong I like it the way it is, and will never quit flying no matter what they do. Like I said a 2 or 3 shot kill is no challenge to me, I perfer skill over luck.